Hate the English??

starbelgrade · 07-10-2009 12:07AM

happy_acid_face wrote: »

Here you go, the BBC okay for you? http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/17/newsid_4311000/4311459.stm

For someone who says they don't hate the English & that we should move on & get over it, you seem to spend an awful long time dragging up their past crimes against the Irish.

happy_acid_face · 07-10-2009 12:18AM

Elliemental wrote: »

Christ on a bike, getting your piss in a froth over human rights abuses that happened decades/centuries ago. Look beyond your own doorstep, theres a whole world of human rights abuses happening right now, never mind a century ago. FFS, i`ve just been reading about a teenage girl in Somalia buried to her waist, and pelted with stones until she died. This happened a few months ago. Channel all your hatred towards that! Check out Amnesty International and find out just how good you've got it.
Tony Blair apologised for the famine, he even apologised for slavery and several other things that weren`t his fault. If you want the English to abase themselves at your feet, well I`m sorry, not going to happen.
I`m not denying that what the English did here was terrible, it was and it was inexcusable. But for heaven`s sake can we move on now?

I completely agree with you. There is an awful lot worse things going on in the world and the Irish know this. Ireland does an awful lot to help people across the world (as do the UK) through various charity groups, AID, etc.

This all stemmed from what was mentioned earlier. A fellow Irish man said he was at a work do (he's living in England for some time) and when everyone stood to toast to the queen a table of other Irish didn't. He said he was embarrassed and felt ashamed to be Irish. I mentioned that I would not stand up for a toast to the queen. And I don't think I should feel guilty for not. My main reasoning is for the decorating of the commander in charge on Bloody Sunday. I think that is a disgrace.

All that said, I still think the Irish have the right to remember their past. Would people fell the same if the Germans told the Jews to get over it?

As for Tony Blair, I will admit that I did forget that he apologised for Britains role in the Famine. And fair play for him doing it.

Unfortunately Northern Ireland is a constant reminder of the past, and I must say, until Ireland is united again this argument will never end.

happy_acid_face · 07-10-2009 12:21AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

For someone who says they don't hate the English & that we should move on & get over it, you seem to spend an awful long time dragging up their past crimes against the Irish.

I will admit, in the heat of the argument I have mentioned the Dublin bombings. I had a family member badly injured that day so yes it is hard to forget. I will admit it is wrong to blame the English for this though as it was also committed by a terrorist organisation, the UVF.

LordSutch · 07-10-2009 01:45PM

happy_acid_face wrote: »

I still think the Irish have the right to remember their past. Would people fell the same if the Germans told the Jews to get over it?

The Nazis exterminated the Jews in gas chambers to the order of some Six million people just 60 years ago! (so no, I wouldn't tell the jews to just get over it), but are you then equating that extermination of the Jews "by the Nazis" with treatment of Irish people by successive generations of English people ?

no1beemerfan · 07-10-2009 02:18PM

Elliemental wrote: »

Christ on a bike, getting your piss in a froth over human rights abuses that happened decades/centuries ago. Look beyond your own doorstep, theres a whole world of human rights abuses happening right now, never mind a century ago. FFS, i`ve just been reading about a teenage girl in Somalia buried to her waist, and pelted with stones until she died. This happened a few months ago. Channel all your hatred towards that! Check out Amnesty International and find out just how good you`ve got it.
Tony Blair apologised for the famine, he even apologised for slavery and several other things that weren`t his fault. If you want the English to abase themselves at your feet, well I`m sorry, not going to happen.
I`m not denying that what the English did here was terrible, it was and it was inexcusable. But for heaven`s sake can we move on now?

An excellent argument.

I've an English girlfriend who moved to Ireland in 2005. She'd to move back to England at the end of 2005 as her mother was very sick. As soon as she could (early 2008) she moved back here as she loved it here and has NEVER met anti-English sentiment. She loves the people she meets and how friendly they are. I don't think she'd move back to England now.

I go to England regularly and have driven around most of the country and I don't get and hassle either so the past is where it should be....in the past.

The most disturbing thing I found since I met my girlfriend is how little the English know about the history of Ireland. She knew about the Famine but hardly anything else.

A LOT of English I meet think the North is just the north of Ireland and not a seperate country and also few can tell me about the easter rising and the troubles. Its not thought in schools there!! I showed my girlfriend the DVDs Michael Collins, The Wind that shakes the Barley etc and she couldn't believe what happened back then but as she says....its TOTALLY different now!

blinding · 07-10-2009 02:24PM

Become a lover not a fighter

Its more fun

you will have more friends

You may have more sex

You will probably be more healthy.

I love you allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

Niall Keane · 07-10-2009 02:29PM

I mean yea, what did the Brits ever do for us, besides the railroads, the ports, the sewage, the public buildings, the parks, the legal system..........
The peoples front of Ballyhappinesh...splitters!

no1beemerfan · 07-10-2009 02:40PM

blinding wrote: »

Become a lover not a fighter

Its more fun

you will have more friends

You may have more sex

You will probably be more healthy.

I love you allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

Are you Female?!!

Rondolfus · 07-10-2009 03:10PM

Camelot wrote: »

The Nazis exterminated the Jews in gas chambers to the order of some Six million people just 60 years ago! (so no, I wouldn't tell the jews to just get over it), but are you then equating that extermination of the Jews "by the Nazis" with treatment of Irish people by successive generations of English people ?

Well the Halocaust has been well documented through pictures and film. Irish suffering happened mainly in a different time period when such technology was not available. Furthermore, the allies had the luxury of being able to report the atrocities as they were victors! Ireland did not have the benefit of a "third" party reporting what the English were doing and lets face , they weren't going to report themselves!

If you're in any doubt as to whether the English attempted genocide against the Irish all you need to do is look at a map. And in particular a place called Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland exists becuase of the presence of British settlers. Settlers that were sent by the British to actively replace the native population. Their aim , apart from draining our resources was to destroy Irish culture.

Anybody who studied history will also know such settlements were also attempted throughout the rest of the country.They are rather nicely called "plantations" however its clear plantaions are genocide in all but name. The same happened in the USA to the native Americans, unfortunately it was more successful. Pity we don't have photos of things like this.

There are two main countries that dominate media in the English speaking world. They basically write the script as they see fit. The USA and Britain portray themselves as whiter than white lol. You don't often hear about the genocide of native Americans. likewise you rarely hear that the British were the first nation to use concentration camps (in the Boer war).

Genocide did not begin or end with the nazis ( they just happened to be the most efficient)!! It continues in various countries right to this day.

The Israelis have a saying "never forgive, never forget". I understand them. Im willing to live in peace with my neighbours, however, I am not entitled to forgive them for anything. They didn't do anything to me personally so I've nothing to forgive! However, I'm also not going to just forget what happened to my people in the past becuase the facts don't sit well with how modern England wishes to be portrayed.

ejmaztec · 07-10-2009 03:23PM

Rondolfus wrote: »

Anybody who studied history will also know such settlements were also attempted throughout the rest of the country.They are rather nicely called "plantations" however its clear plantaions are genocide in all but name. The same happened in the USA to the native Americans, unfortunately it was more successful. Pity we don't have photos of things like this.

Where was the "genocide" in relation to the plantations? Some of my Ulster ancestors got moved sideways, while the rest of them took off to Scotland.

Rondolfus · 07-10-2009 03:29PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

Where was the "genocide" in relation to the plantations? Some of my Ulster ancestors got moved sideways, while the rest of them took off to Scotland.

Legal definition of genocide :

"Article II: [FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono] [/FONT]In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

The plantations were a politically motivated moves to replace the Irish population with British subjects loyal to the crown...Are you trying to say it was just natural population movements ??? lol

The Irish that left Ulster for Scotland left long after the plantations. Most left after the famine and they didn't "TAKE" any Scottish peoples lands. The British that were moved to Ireland during the population were given land already owned by Irish people who were forced to live in horrific conditions. see part C above. Furthermore the Irish were forcibly removed from their land to make way for the settlers .

You sound a lot like Benjamin Netanyahu defending the settlements

mike65 · 07-10-2009 03:31PM

lol

blinding · 07-10-2009 03:33PM

no1beemerfan wrote: »

Are you Female?!!

No but I still love Ya.

Noffles · 07-10-2009 03:39PM

This one still going is it... still the same names spewing the same stuff I see zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

ejmaztec · 07-10-2009 03:45PM

Rondolfus wrote: »

Legal definition of genocide :

"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

The plantations were a politically motivated moves to replace the Irish population with British subjects loyal to the crown...Are you trying to say it was just natural population movements ??? lol
The Irish that left Ulster for Scotland left long after the plantations. Most left after the famine and they didn't "TAKE" any Scottish peoples lands. The British that were moved to Ireland during the population were given land already owned by Irish people who were forced to live in horrific conditions. see part C above. Furthermore the Irish were forcibly removed from their land to make way for the settlers .

You sound a lot like Benjamin Netanyahu defending the settlements

It's a good job that they didn't kill them then, or I wouldn't be here to get on your tits.

Rondolfus · 07-10-2009 03:56PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's a good job that they didn't kill them then, or I wouldn't be here to get on your tits.

[/left]

Well they couldn't kill them all. Thankfully the English were never as effecient as ze Germans.

super_furry · 07-10-2009 03:57PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTRrZcEsjFU

Rondolfus · 07-10-2009 03:58PM

super_furry wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTRrZcEsjFU

Did he steal this off Bill Hicks too??

happy_acid_face · 07-10-2009 07:36PM

Rondolfus wrote: »

..........However, I'm also not going to just forget what happened to my people in the past becuase the facts don't sit well with how modern England wishes to be portrayed.

+ 1

ejmaztec wrote:

Where was the "genocide" in relation to the plantations? Some of my Ulster ancestors got moved sideways, while the rest of them took off to Scotland.

Ever heard of that lovely phrase "to Hell or to Connaught"?

Here is a small extract from an article on that delightful man who the English hold so high, Oliver Cromwell.

"All of Clare, Galway , Roscommon and most of Mayo was reserved as an enclave for the surviving Irish. The English plan was to pen in the Irish west of the Shannon River , which was seen as a defensible border, with the ocean to the west. Where the Shannon was not available in the northwest, the military settlement would seal this area. All of the islands off the coast of the enclave were cleared of the Irish or used for special purposes, such as the internship camp for priests on Inisbofin. Inside this prison without bars the English hoped to make the hardcore Irish leadership impotent, there being no ports, no war industries, no fortresses, and no natural defenses. All confiscated land was to be transferred on 26 September 1653 and all unauthorized Irish were to be in Connaught or Hell by 1 May 1654.

Cromwell and Parliament should have known better; theirs was a mad plan for both England and Ireland . Many of the officers and soldiers who were given land were not farmers nor desirous of living in Ireland . The Adventurers were investors in land, not even gentlemen farmers. Within ten years, only one-third of the new settlers remained in Ireland . The value of the Irish tenant farmers and laborers found new respect among the new settlers for their skills with the land. All kinds of schemes and delaying tactics were invented to get exceptions for the Irish who were either needed to work the land or who wished to avoid wild Connaught and its ancient residents who had no special reason to be welcoming to new comers.

The Settlement terms were never fully carried out, but enough was accomplished to embitter English - Irish relations for three hundred years and more. The Cromwellian settlement crushed the Irish economy by denuding Ireland of its natural forests by making timber a cash crop, by reducing its cattle wealth from a worth of £4 million in 1641 to £½ million in 1660, by erasing the production of milk, butter, oatmeal, oat bread, and meat to be replaced by dependence on the potato, by driving Irish vessels from commerce through laws requiring English only shipping, by reducing Irish Catholic land ownership from 60% in 1641 to 9% in 1660. Little wonder that an angry Ireland seething under English colonial rule rose up again and again to claim its independence. In his biography of Oliver Cromwell, John Morley assesses Cromwell’s place in Irish history in these words: “...to everyone it will at least be intelligible how his name has come to be hated in the tenacious heart of Ireland . What is called his settlement aggravated Irish misery to a degree that cannot be measured, and before the end of a single generation events at Limerick and the Boyne showed how hollow and ineffectual, as well as how mischievous, the Cromwellian settlement had been.”"

Camelot wrote:

The Nazis exterminated the Jews in gas chambers to the order of some Six million people just 60 years ago! (so no, I wouldn't tell the jews to just get over it), but are you then equating that extermination of the Jews "by the Nazis" with treatment of Irish people by successive generations of English people ?

Fine, I'll use a different example, how about I tell those African Americans to stop mentioning the whole slavery thing? I mean, it happened in the past, they need to let it go and move on...

blinding · 07-10-2009 07:42PM

Is this post 800.(801 then)

Lets take the best from our history and move on.

mike65 · 07-10-2009 07:44PM

Who cares about Cromwell now?

(sorry blinding)

happy_acid_face · 07-10-2009 07:51PM

mike65 wrote: »

Who cares about Cromwell now?

(sorry blinding)

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about Slavery in the U.S

super_furry · 07-10-2009 08:30PM

happy_acid_face wrote: »

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about Slavery in the U.S

Yes, because like slavery, the legacy of Cromwell lives on and is still keeping Irish people down as an underclass.

happy_acid_face · 07-10-2009 08:38PM

super_furry wrote: »

Yes, because like slavery, the legacy of Cromwell lives on and is still keeping Irish people down as an underclass.

You do realise there are still 6 counties under British Rule? And I'm sure there is a lot of Northern Irish that might disagree the "keeping Irish down remark".

Rondolfus · 07-10-2009 08:49PM

super_furry wrote: »

Yes, because like slavery, the legacy of Cromwell lives on and is still keeping Irish people down as an underclass.

As an underclass? If you believe in an "underclass" than it says more about you than anybody else.

Jews, blacks and Irish were all persecuted in the past , but it seems some people have a problem with the Irish talking about. Why is this??

Well the British have no problem with the Jews talking about their past because it primarily involves Germany! The halocaust enabled Britain to brush under the carpet years of anti-semtism in Britain. They've even managed to stop the "brilliant" Shakespeare being labeled the raging anti-semite which he was.

Slavery? The British have no problem allowing blacks to talk about slavery because for some reason the world now perceives that as an American issue. Again they managed to slip under the radar of responsibility.

But the Irish question!! They have no one else to blame. And of course "Great Britain" likes to portray this civilised image to the world. So all the abuse?? the attempted genocide??? By Golly it never happened!! Its just a fantasy dreamt up by some extremist Irish terrorists....

I guarantee if the Irish-American lobby wasn't so strong, Britain would have done an even better job of brushing it under the carpet.

Namlub · 07-10-2009 09:10PM

Rondolfus wrote: »

They've even managed to stop the "brilliant" Shakespeare being labeled the raging anti-semite which he was.

Ah yes, damn those British anti-labelling police. It'll be perefectly evident to anyone with half a brain who has read the Merchant of Venice that Skaespeare's portrayal of character's is highly anti-Semitic, without any interference from the Bristish.

furiousox · 07-10-2009 09:19PM

This thread is getting beyond tedious, does anyone fancy a pint?

parker kent · 07-10-2009 09:27PM

Rondolfus wrote: »

They've even managed to stop the "brilliant" Shakespeare being labeled the raging anti-semite which he was.

Lots of literary criticism refers to Shakespeare's antisemitism. It is hardly a secret. But most people realise he was a product of his era. Like it or not, antisemitism was rife at the time.

It was half a millennium ago, maybe you could let that one go???

starbelgrade · 07-10-2009 09:44PM

no1beemerfan wrote: »

The most disturbing thing I found since I met my girlfriend is how little the English know about the history of Ireland. She knew about the Famine but hardly anything else.

A LOT of English I meet think the North is just the north of Ireland and not a seperate country and also few can tell me about the easter rising and the troubles. Its not thought in schools there!!

That is quite an oddity that I've discovered with many English. Their history books must be full of pictures of bunny rabbits & flowery fields. Still, that's no reason to hate them.

One thing I'd like to suggest to all those ranting on about 800 years of oppression & looking for the British government to apologise for their atrocities.. wouldn't it be novel & even noble of us, if we actually forgave them first? Not only would it make us look good, but it'd be like getting a back-handed one-over on them - just a thought!

Elliemental · 07-10-2009 09:47PM

furiousox wrote: »

This thread is getting beyond tedious, does anyone fancy a pint?

Of anti-freeze? I`ll have one.

Hate the English??

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