Hate the English??

Fratton Fred · 03-10-2009 03:42PM

DoireNod wrote: »

Catholics have definitely been treated as second class citizens by Protestants, especially in Ireland and Britain, there's no denying that. The pope isn't the head of state in Ireland either.

you do realise that Britain and ireland were the only places Catholic were badly treated. In the rest of the world, it was the catholics oppressing (and worse) the Protestants.

St Bartholemew's day massacre, Spanish inquisition, even the Spanish armada was sent on the instruction of the Pope to teach the Protestant English Queen a lesson.

Dudess · 03-10-2009 03:51PM

To be fair, I'm sure there are Catholics who have endured grief where they are a minority in any Protestant society (the States definitely) but yeah, Catholics as this persecuted group like the Jews... is very much a fallacy.

DoireNod · 03-10-2009 03:52PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you do realise that Britain and ireland were the only places Catholic were badly treated. In the rest of the world, it was the catholics oppressing (and worse) the Protestants.

St Bartholemew's day massacre, Spanish inquisition, even the Spanish armada was sent on the instruction of the Pope to teach the Protestant English Queen a lesson.

Yeah, I don't deny or excuse that either. In any case, just because that happened elsewhere, doesn't excuse what happened here. I was just saying that it's undeniable fact that Catholics suffered under Protestants in Ireland and Britain.

DoireNod · 03-10-2009 03:54PM

Dudess wrote: »

To be fair, I'm sure there are Catholics who have endured grief where they are a minority in any Protestant society (the States definitely) but yeah, Catholics as this persecuted group like the Jews... is very much a fallacy.

Maybe your analogy is a bit strong, but it's well known that the Protestant ascendancy felt the lower predominantly Catholic classes were nothing more than a scourge and were inferior - in many ways the same as how the Jews were seen by the Nazis.

blinding · 03-10-2009 03:56PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you do realise that Britain and ireland were the only places Catholic were badly treated. In the rest of the world, it was the catholics oppressing (and worse) the Protestants.

St Bartholemew's day massacre, Spanish inquisition, even the Spanish armada was sent on the instruction of the Pope to teach the Protestant English Queen a lesson.

Catholics did not always get such an easy ride in North America at various times in its history.
I cannot say whether people of British extraction were making life hard for catholics (Irish) but I would say it is not unreasonable to believe that if they had done it in Britain and Ireland that some of them had brought this nasty little trait to North America.

Probably could throw in Australia and New Zealand .

LaLucy · 03-10-2009 04:06PM

My thoughts on this subject. I was born in England and moved to Ireland in my teens with my Irish parents. When I started school I got a lot of hassle about being English and to be honest it bothered me. When I lived in England I got hassle about being white from black people and you feel the anger of these kids who are learning the history of people who were born in same country as them or had same colour skin as them and they think its their right to be angry about it. I mean come on!!! A little Irish kid with his own room and expensive games console coming from a loving family and getting an education can hardly put themselves in the shoes of the hardships of Irish people from years ago. Same with black people born in England into British culture comparing themselves to an African kid in slave times is stupid. Everybody just wants to hate somebody it's human nature to hate and fight but if they just stop and think about it they will see the Ireland they live in today is very different than old Ireland. Don't let your hatred be passed onto your kids for them to go into school and take out their bs on someone like me who didn't know what the feck was going on! So there!

ejmaztec · 03-10-2009 04:36PM

Protestants and Catholics have been slugging it out in Europe for centuries, the vast majority eventually finding more important things to do. It just seems that, for mainland Europe, it was down to a bit of dogma, whereas for the C of E, it was down to Henry VIII having trouble legitimising his leg-overs.

happy_acid_face · 03-10-2009 04:52PM

RiverWilde wrote: »

Good grief what's with all the Brit bashing? I'm sure that if most people living in Ireland had a look at their family they'd find someone who was British along the way.

Personally I think breaking from the UK was a mistake especially considering what we've done with the country since.

However, we are where we are and hating our neighbours is just daft. How many people out there watch UK tv? support UK football teams? have friends and family living in the UK and god forbid some of them might even hold dual citizenship!!!! :eek:

I think deep down we're more British in parts than we'd like to think.

Riv

Eh??? What we've done with the country? A study by The Economist found Ireland to have the best quality of life in the world. The UK is 29th...

As I have mentioned before though, I don't hate the English people, I hate what their country did in the past. And yes, it is hard to forget what happened. For Gods sake, Bloody Sunday only happened in 1972! Thats hardly a long time!

Also, I'm sure you'd find a bit of Viking in some peoples background too but thats not to say they didn't rape and pillage the country.

happy_acid_face · 03-10-2009 04:56PM

LaLucy wrote: »

My thoughts on this subject. I was born in England and moved to Ireland in my teens with my Irish parents. When I started school I got a lot of hassle about being English and to be honest it bothered me. When I lived in England I got hassle about being white from black people and you feel the anger of these kids who are learning the history of people who were born in same country as them or had same colour skin as them and they think its their right to be angry about it. I mean come on!!! A little Irish kid with his own room and expensive games console coming from a loving family and getting an education can hardly put themselves in the shoes of the hardships of Irish people from years ago. Same with black people born in England into British culture comparing themselves to an African kid in slave times is stupid. Everybody just wants to hate somebody it's human nature to hate and fight but if they just stop and think about it they will see the Ireland they live in today is very different than old Ireland. Don't let your hatred be passed onto your kids for them to go into school and take out their bs on someone like me who didn't know what the feck was going on! So there!

Please do some reading, this isn't a long time ago in a far away land stuff. As I mentioned above, Bloody Sunday only happened in 1972...

Bloody Sunday - Wikipedia

furiousox · 03-10-2009 07:10PM

Please do some reading, this isn't a long time ago in a far away land stuff. As I mentioned above, Bloody Sunday only happened in 1972...

Yeah but Manchester was bombed in 1996 and Omagh in 1998
You could throw stones over and back all day

We have to move on, all of us, we've no choice..

You Suck! · 04-10-2009 02:53AM

May I interupt this serius biznizz just to state I find it amusing that the Irish voting Yes may lead to the first British president of Europe, be sure to inhale the intoxicating aroma of historical irony! :pac:

:pac:

Tar.Aldarion · 04-10-2009 03:29AM

You Suck! wrote: »

May I interupt this serius biznizz just to state I find it amusing that the Irish voting Yes may lead to the first British president of Europe, be sure to inhale the intoxicating aroma of historical irony! :pac: :pac:

Um I believe he was president of the European coucil twice already and that all that is changing is the way the president is selected, and the length of time he serves.

RiverWilde · 04-10-2009 03:55AM

He may be British but he is also European ... just like us

... the sooner we get past this 'omg he's British/French/Italian/Polish' fixation the better.

Riv

Fratton Fred · 04-10-2009 11:04AM

I had heard that there is a "Chance" Tony Blair could be the first EU President, but there is also a "Chance" Bertie could be, or Jacque Chirac, or even me:eek:

blinding · 04-10-2009 11:07AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I had heard that there is a "Chance" Tony Blair could be the first EU President, but there is also a "Chance" Bertie could be, or Jacque Chirac, or even me:eek:

You should have let us know you were interested in the job Fratton Fred.

The collective that is boards.ie would have made it so with just a little advance warning.

happy_acid_face · 04-10-2009 04:23PM

furiousox wrote: »

Please do some reading, this isn't a long time ago in a far away land stuff. As I mentioned above, Bloody Sunday only happened in 1972...

Yeah but Manchester was bombed in 1996 and Omagh in 1998
You could throw stones over and back all day

We have to move on, all of us, we've no choice..

Sorry but there is a huge difference between the country England and the terrorist organizations the IRA/Real IRA. Ireland did not commended the IRA/Real IRA for their acts. In fact, it was met by much anger from the Irish community.

Also, the IRA/Real IRA issued apologies to the families of those killed and to anyone else affected by the above. That's a lot more than the Brits have done.

furiousox · 04-10-2009 04:58PM

Also, the IRA/Real IRA issued apologies to the families of those killed and to anyone else affected by the above. That's a lot more than the Brits have done.

Well they didn't apologise for killing two soldiers not so long ago nor those pizza delivery men(!) they tried to murder..
Remind me, were they "legitimate targets" or "collaborators"?

Look, what happened on bloody sunday (and it's aftermath) makes my blood boil, what happened in omagh makes my blood boil too

Like l said,

We could throw stones over and back all day but we can't keep on living in the last century

We have to move on, all of us, we've no choice!

So, no.. l don't hate the english..

(Jesus, l sound like a politician don't l? :rolleyes:)

RiverWilde · 04-10-2009 05:04PM

happy_acid_face wrote: »

Eh??? What we've done with the country? A study by The Economist found Ireland to have the best quality of life in the world. The UK is 29th...

As I have mentioned before though, I don't hate the English people, I hate what their country did in the past. And yes, it is hard to forget what happened. For Gods sake, Bloody Sunday only happened in 1972! Thats hardly a long time!

Also, I'm sure you'd find a bit of Viking in some peoples background too but thats not to say they didn't rape and pillage the country.

The way you go on you'd swear the the various institutions in the Republic were bloody saints!

Lets see, censorship, denial of fundamental rights - contraception? Institutional abuse? The tacit support of religious organisations that harbour criminals? Obvious corruption in govt? A two tier health/education system?

Oh yeah we've done a great job.

The only useful thing we've done is join the EU ... thank god Lisbon passed.

Riv

Rondolfus · 04-10-2009 10:32PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I suppose if we beat a really tough team, like Cyprus for example, then we could get excited about it.

Its the world cup qualifiers, what more can you do than beat every team you play? Croatia are going to finish second and we beat them twice. What more do you want?

You ought to stroll over to the football forum, there's a debate over there about Shay Given being the best goalkeeper in the world FFS.

Aah bless.

LOL are you trying to say that the England football team and Ireland should be judged according to the same criteria?? Are you for real? England has a population of over 50 million. Ireland has barely 4.5. We actually punch way above our weight when it comes to football. And yes Cyrpus are considered a tough team for us even though they have a population 5 times smaller.

Lets think of country with a population 5 times smaller than England... hmmmm oh yeah PORTUGAL!! And they beat England all the time.

Given may not be the best keeper in the world, but he is certianly better than any of the rubbish keepers that England has managed to produce.

Unless of course you think Robinson or Harte are better.... ahh Bless

Namlub · 04-10-2009 10:35PM

Rondolfus wrote: »

LOL are you trying to say that the England football team and Ireland should be judged according to the same criteria?? Are you for real? England has a population of over 50 million. Ireland has barely 4.5. We actually punch way above our weight when it comes to football. And yes Cyrpus are considered a tough team for us even though they have a population 5 times smaller.

Lets think of country with a population 5 times smaller than England... hmmmm oh yeah PORTUGAL!! And they beat England all the time.

Given may not be the best keeper in the world, but he is certianly better than any of the rubbish keepers that England has managed to produce.

Unless of course you think Robinson or Harte are better.... ahh Bless

Take it to the football forum, tbh

Rondolfus · 04-10-2009 10:59PM

furiousox wrote: »

Well they didn't apologise for killing two soldiers not so long ago nor those pizza delivery men(!) they tried to murder..Remind me, were they "legitimate targets" or "collaborators"?

Firstly the people responsible for Omagh and killing thoses soldiers are part of breakaway group that don't accecpt the peace process. Its a group that numbers about 50, and two of the people they want to kill are Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams. ( They see them as traitors for entering the peace process). They should not be taken as representative of the IRA that operated in the 70s and 80s. Sinn Fein, or the Provisional IRA don't need to apologise for these lunatics because they have nothing to do with them.

The IRA that operated in the 70s and 80s were formed initally to protect catholic community against loyalist attacks that was escalating into ethnic cleansing! This is why Jack Lynch wanted to invade the North and this is also why the British sent in troops! They were intially sent in to protect the catholics from the loyalists. Soon things began to change and the British army started to collaborate with the Loyalist terrorists. This is common knowledge. British intelligence helped loyalists carry out the Dublin bombings! Where's our apology for that??? Or for the countless innocent catholics killed by loyalist with information provided by the RUC.

Im sick of people pinning all the blame for everything on the IRA! There were two sides involved in this conflict and believe it or not, more CIVILLIANS were killed by loyalist paramilitaries. Strangely, figures released by the British include the RUC as "civillians" and even a portion of the British army!!

Anyway we are trying to move on from those dark days. We shouldn't be looking for apologies unless EVERYBODY is willing to give one.

Two British soldiers were killed earlier in the year by breakaway extremists. It still occupies your mind. I wonder do you give as much thought to the Catholic community worker who was beaten to death in front of his family by a loyalist gang who were out "celebrating" Rangers winning the league!! Or do you give as much thought to the dozens of Catholic families that were forced to leave their homes through intimidation and attacks this year!! In 2009!!!

My point is don't let your hatred of the IRA blind you from the reality of the conflict. There are two sides.

furiousox · 04-10-2009 11:11PM

The IRA that operated in the 70s and 80s were formed initally to protect catholic community against loyalist attacks that was escalating into ethnic cleansing! This is why Jack Lynch wanted to invade the North and this is also why the British sent in troops! They were intially sent in to protect the catholics from the loyalists. Soon things began to change and the British army started to collaborate with the Loyalist terrorists. This is common knowledge. British intelligence helped loyalists carry out the Dublin bombings!

l'm aware of all of this and l wouldn't deny a word of it

Anyway we are trying to move on from those dark days. We shouldn't be looking for apologies unless EVERYBODY is willing to give one.

Absolutely, my point exactly

I wonder do you give as much thought to the Catholic community worker who was beaten to death in front of his family by a loyalist gang who were out "celebrating" Rangers winning the league!! Or do you give as much thought to the dozens of Catholic families that were forced to leave their homes through intimidation and attacks this year!! In 2009!!!

l do, l absolutely do.
l despise sectarian violence of any nature.

Rondolfus · 04-10-2009 11:16PM

RiverWilde wrote: »

The way you go on you'd swear the the various institutions in the Republic were bloody saints!

Lets see, censorship, denial of fundamental rights - contraception? Institutional abuse? The tacit support of religious organisations that harbour criminals? Obvious corruption in govt? A two tier health/education system?

Oh yeah we've done a great job.

The only useful thing we've done is join the EU ... thank god Lisbon passed.

Riv

I didn't grow up in an Ireland were any of these things were true ( except Government corruption which is true for basically every Government). In fact I've been quite privileged like most of my generation. Therefore we must be making progress as a nation.

Ireland has only been independent for a brief period of time. Obviously we had teething problems. But thats not unusal. I know certain people who suffered abuse etc may find it hard to see the good-side to this country. Thats understandable. However, the strucutres that failed them no longer exist. The Ireland today is drastically different from that of even the 80's!

So we had some bad people in our history... Who didn't?? I've never known a nation to beat themelves up so much over the past. We had Christian brothers, the Germans had Nazis, the British and Americans had slavery....FFS you'd think we're the only country with a dark past.

robinph · 04-10-2009 11:58PM

Rondolfus wrote: »

I didn't grow up in an Ireland were any of these things were true ( except Government corruption which is true for basically every Government). In fact I've been quite privileged like most of my generation. Therefore we must be making progress as a nation.

Ireland has only been independent for a brief period of time. Obviously we had teething problems. But thats not unusal. I know certain people who suffered abuse etc may find it hard to see the good-side to this country. Thats understandable. However, the strucutres that failed them no longer exist. The Ireland today is drastically different from that of even the 80's!

So we had some bad people in our history... Who didn't?? I've never known a nation to beat themelves up so much over the past. We had Christian brothers, the Germans had Nazis, the British and Americans had slavery....FFS you'd think we're the only country with a dark past.

So any bad stuff that happened because of Irish people or the Irish state is entirely excusable and should be forgotten about now because it's in the past and before your time so therefore never affected you?

Why does this excusing/ ignoring of past wrongs only apply to the Irish in your view?

Rondolfus · 05-10-2009 12:23AM

robinph wrote: »

So any bad stuff that happened because of Irish people or the Irish state is entirely excusable and should be forgotten about now because it's in the past and before your time so therefore never affected you?

Why does this excusing/ ignoring of past wrongs only apply to the Irish in your view?

I never said ignore or excuse anything. I'm just pointing out that every country has a dark past. Ireland is not unique in this respect. It seems that some Irish people revel in bad mouthing their own country. I don't know if its an inferiority complex or just a "grass is always greener" syndrome.

On one hand these people complain about people bad mouthing the English saying ," it happened in the past get over it."

Yet on the other hand they hold a grudge against the entire country of Ireland over things that happened in the past!!! Talk about hypocrites.

robinph · 05-10-2009 12:45AM

Rondolfus wrote: »

Yet on the other hand they hold a grudge against the entire country of Ireland over things that happened in the past!!! Talk about hypocrites.

The nerve of some people, eh?!?

Rondolfus · 05-10-2009 12:58AM

robinph wrote: »

The nerve of some people, eh?!?

Is that the best you can come up with? Seems to be a trend on this thread. If you can't think of an articulate logical response type something random with a face and people will think you're being all "ironic".

Fail.

RiverWilde · 05-10-2009 11:32AM

Rondolfus wrote: »

I didn't grow up in an Ireland were any of these things were true ( except Government corruption which is true for basically every Government). In fact I've been quite privileged like most of my generation. Therefore we must be making progress as a nation.

Ireland has only been independent for a brief period of time. Obviously we had teething problems. But thats not unusal. I know certain people who suffered abuse etc may find it hard to see the good-side to this country. Thats understandable. However, the strucutres that failed them no longer exist. The Ireland today is drastically different from that of even the 80's!

So we had some bad people in our history... Who didn't?? I've never known a nation to beat themelves up so much over the past. We had Christian brothers, the Germans had Nazis, the British and Americans had slavery....FFS you'd think we're the only country with a dark past.

Yes and the corruption continues and the religious criminals are still protected.

I'd love to be able to turn around to my employer and say, 'no you can't fire me unless ...'

Great little country

It's a bit rich to put the issues with this country down to 'teething problems.'
The thing is, I don't see it improving in any way. If anything it's getting worse ... the healthcare system will probably be stripped out even further ... access to education is being made even more difficult etc etc.

The words 'accountability' - 'responsibility' - 'fairness' - mean nothing in terms of how this country is governed.

So yeah we've done a great job

Riv

Rondolfus · 05-10-2009 12:07PM

RiverWilde wrote: »

Yes and the corruption continues and the religious criminals are still protected.

I'd love to be able to turn around to my employer and say, 'no you can't fire me unless ...'

Great little country

Riv

Yes and corruption is unique to Ireland :rolleyes:. Have you not heard of the countless scandals in England??? Or perhaps you should try living in Italy...lol

As for religious criminals. Many have been brought to justice others have escaped. Thats the nature of democratic law. If you can come up with a magic formula were every criminal gets what he deserves please share it with the WORLD! It would be very beneficial.

Also abuse is not unique to Ireland. We had a society that was controlled by the church, therefore, the abusers tended to be church related. In other countries the abuse was still there but was carried out by swimming coaches, correctional officers, teachers etc! Paedophiles are skilled at finding positions that will help them pursue their evil aims. Ireland's crime was to create a society of hierarchical power (via Catholic church) in which paedophiles could operate with ease. This structure no longer exists, however, i'm sure these evil people (who exist in every country) have looked to different ways of satisfying their evil, such as the internet.

I don't think the disgusting case that was recently uncovered in England ( Nursery paedophile) had anything to do with the Catholic church or Ireland. Like all cases of abuse it was carried out by evil human beings NOT PLACES.

Its simple for people to put things into boxes. This fits here or this fits there! In reality evil exists in many different forms and in many different places. Today it is probably more hidden than ever.

As for your "great little country" comment. One of the greatest things we have is freedom. Nobody is keeping you here. It seems a bit of cliche but its true. If you don't like the country you're in... move somewhere else. You can get to the UK for less than fifty euro.

Imagine that.. only fifty euro to get out of this hell hole and you're wasting time complaining.

RiverWilde · 05-10-2009 12:33PM

Ah yeah just the response I was expecting, 'if ya don't like it here ye can feck off.' It's okay that the problems with this country are endemic ... 'the difference is, 'we're Irish!'

Get off the stage.

Riv

Hate the English??

Comments