Interesting irish historical facts

Snickers Man · 09-09-2009 11:57am

Balmed Out wrote: »

Bandon was a walled prodestant town and apparently had something in the manner of "No catholic may enter" written on the gateway. Beneath was graffitied with "so say the gates of hell".

"Jew or Turk or atheist
May enter here but not a papist"

I believe was the original sign, under which somebody had scrawled:

"Whoever wrote this wrote it well
For the same is writ on the gates of Hell"

All probably apocryphal, but nonetheless evidence of a fine Irish tradition for pricking the pomposity of grand sounding declarations with a bit of plain speaking, or at least as plain as can be after a few pints.

My own favourite, and also possibly apocryphal, example is alleged to have been seen in Derry after the Battle of the Bogside in 1969. Coming so soon after the Year of 1968 when student riots were commonplace in many European cities, most notably France, many international students made their way to Derry to participate in what they saw as a continuing struggle against a decadent worldwide establishment.

On one prominent place somebody had written something like:
"We, the students of the Sorbonne pledge our undying fraternal support to the Irish proletariat in its continuing heroic struggle for liberty, equality, democracy and dignity"

Under which was scribbled somewhat unsteadily:

"Froggy Bastards"

OldJay · 09-09-2009 12:10pm

Pearse's first name was Patrick as christened.
Not Pádraig.

uch · 11-09-2009 3:22pm

McArmalite wrote: »

The name that became associated with the city from the 13th century on in Irish is Baile Átha Cliath (meaning "town of the hurdled ford"), with Dublin remaining in English. It was first written as such in 1368 in the Annals of Ulster. Áth Cliath is a place-name referring to a fording point of the Liffey in the vicinity of Heuston Station.

I was told by a Trinity Historian that it meant "Town of the Ford of Wattlings" And that this is where Watling Street came from, the old watling street gate into the city is now in Kilmainham at the royal hospital.

sensibleken · 18-09-2009 5:51pm

McArmalite wrote: »

The name Dublin is derived from the Irish name Dubh Linn (meaning "black pool").

ive heard this alot and i wonder if this is a myth. for example the original norse name was Dyflin which could have been gaelicised (no idea if thats a word) to dubh linn. if it was really 'black pool' then surely it would have been linn dubh?

heres one. when dublin celebrated its millenium in 1988 it was not the aniversary of the founding of the city but rather the victory of Meal Seachlainn 11 against the the norse king of dublin, forcing him to accept brehon law.

and everything about brehon law is interesting

Capt'n Midnight · 19-09-2009 12:59am

Grafitti allegedly spotted in Belfast near the City Hall sign that said "Ulster says NO!"
"But the man from Del Monte says yes!"

and then under that one

"And he's an Orangeman !"

MarchDub · 19-09-2009 2:10pm

sensibleken wrote: »

ive heard this alot and i wonder if this is a myth. for example the original norse name was Dyflin which could have been gaelicised (no idea if thats a word) to dubh linn. if it was really 'black pool' then surely it would have been linn dubh?

The entries in the Irish Annals refer to "Dubhlinn" prior to the Viking settlement. So it was adapted by the Norse and is not original to them. There is also a reference in the Annals of Innisfallen to a Dubhloch - Black Lake, in Meath. Same placement of the adjective - I just checked it out in my own copy.

Dubh Linn and Ath Cliath were not the same place - and both names are found in the annals hundreds of years prior to the Viking settlement. They were both different areas of what became the larger city and both were then used to refer to the whole city of Dublin; one was adapted into English and other remained the Irish name.

sensibleken · 19-09-2009 2:56pm

MarchDub wrote: »

The entries in the Irish Annals refer to "Dubhlinn" prior to the Viking settlement. So it was adapted by the Norse and is not original to them. There is also a reference in the Annals of Innisfallen to a Dubhloch - Black Lake, in Meath. Same placement of the adjective - I just checked it out in my own copy.

Dubh Linn and Ath Cliath were not the same place - and both names are found in the annals hundreds of years prior to the Viking settlement. They were both different areas of what became the larger city and both were then used to refer to the whole city of Dublin; one was adapted into English and other remained the Irish name.

thanks for that. i thought that was me just being wrong

do you know which annals its refered to as dubhlinn, i know inisfallen is between 13th and 15th century and most of the others were centuries later. i would be curious to find the earliest reference if there is indeed one earlier

MarchDub · 20-09-2009 3:49am

sensibleken wrote: »

thanks for that. i thought that was me just being wrong do you know which annals its refered to as dubhlinn, i know inisfallen is between 13th and 15th century and most of the others were centuries later. i would be curious to find the earliest reference if there is indeed one earlier

I think you are confused about the Irish Annals - the monastic annals were written from about the sixth century, not the dates you quote. You may be thinking of the later dates when they were translated or compiled, as they were by the Four Masters in the early 1600s when Gaelic Ireland was being eroded. The Annals of Innisfallen, for example begins in the fifth century and ends in 1450. The reason we know so much about pre-Anglo-Norman Ireland is from the monastic scribes. All major events in Irish life were recorded - including monastic life, the arrival of the Vikings and the plundering of monasteries. Monastic battles are also described . The Annals were mostly written in Latin but there are also some in the Irish language. As a result of these scribes Ireland has the oldest vernacular literature in Western Europe.

The references to DubhLinn and Ath Cliath that I referred to date to many years before the arrival of the Vikings.

sensibleken · 21-09-2009 8:47am

MarchDub wrote: »

I think you are confused about the Irish Annals - the monastic annals were written from about the sixth century, not the dates you quote. You may be thinking of the later dates when they were translated or compiled, as they were by the Four Masters in the early 1600s when Gaelic Ireland was being eroded. The Annals of Innisfallen, for example begins in the fifth century and ends in 1450. The reason we know so much about pre-Anglo-Norman Ireland is from the monastic scribes. All major events in Irish life were recorded - including monastic life, the arrival of the Vikings and the plundering of monasteries. Monastic battles are also described . The Annals were mostly written in Latin but there are also some in the Irish language. As a result of these scribes Ireland has the oldest vernacular literature in Western Europe.

The references to DubhLinn and Ath Cliath that I referred to date to many years before the arrival of the Vikings.

cheers. yes the four masters was the one that was confusing me. thanks for that again

dimejinky99 · 23-09-2009 10:45pm

bullpost wrote: »

When Michael Collins was in negotiations with the British he was shown plans for the future of Dublin, including plans to build an underground rail system similar to Londons tube.
He was said to have joked that if his intelligence had been good enough to have known about this he would have held off a little longer before beginning the war of independence.

I heard that too..wish he'd held off meself!

sensibleken · 24-09-2009 9:49am

Heres a brilliant treatise on the like of Zozimus, fantastically researched and entertaining. well worth a bed time read

http://www.chaptersofdublin.com/books/General/zozimus.htm

bullpost · 24-09-2009 10:12am

There was a very interesting series on BBC recently . It controversially put forward the idea that the Irish actually were largely responsible for civilising England and indeed by influence, continental europe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00kps7h/How_the_Celts_Saved_Britain_A_New_Civilisation/

Regardless of your opinion on the programs they do contain lots of really interesting facts about Ireland e.g. some of the dyes used in the book of Kells could only have come from Afghanistan.
Another one was that the British originally allied themselves with the Vatican to break away from Irish influence and this
all came about because the king wanted to have sex during lent!

bkelly86 · 24-09-2009 10:13am

I remember reading somewhere when i was young that st.valentine is buried in Dublin. Could be just my imagination.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-09-2009 10:24am

bkelly86 wrote: »

I remember reading somewhere when i was young that st.valentine is buried in Dublin. Could be just my imagination.

It's true.

Also Santa Claus is buried in the Church of St Nicholas, (close to Jerpoint Abbey) in Kilkenny.

pablomakaveli · 24-09-2009 11:15am

bullpost wrote: »

There was a very interesting series on BBC recently . It controversially put forward the idea that the Irish actually were largely responsible for civilising England and indeed by influence, continental europe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00kps7h/How_the_Celts_Saved_Britain_A_New_Civilisation/

Regardless of your opinion on the programs they do contain lots of really interesting facts about Ireland e.g. some of the dyes used in the book of Kells could only have come from Afghanistan.
Another one was that the British originally allied themselves with the Vatican to break away from Irish influence and this
all came about because the king wanted to have sex during lent!

Thats true. The Irish monks copied a lot of texts that would have been lost after the fall of Roman power in Britain. Theres a great book by Terry Jones (one of the lads in monty python) called Barbarians which dispels a lot of the stereotypes of the so called Barbarian peoples like the Celts, Germanic tribes and Dacians.

Also in that book he mentions that there were roads made using wood found in Ireland that predates Roman roads by a few hundred years.

sensibleken · 24-09-2009 6:58pm

bullpost wrote: »

There was a very interesting series on BBC recently . It controversially put forward the idea that the Irish actually were largely responsible for civilising England and indeed by influence, continental europe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00kps7h/How_the_Celts_Saved_Britain_A_New_Civilisation/

Regardless of your opinion on the programs they do contain lots of really interesting facts about Ireland e.g. some of the dyes used in the book of Kells could only have come from Afghanistan.
Another one was that the British originally allied themselves with the Vatican to break away from Irish influence and this
all came about because the king wanted to have sex during lent!

theres a book by thomas cahill called 'how the irish saved civilisation' along the same lines. its not that controversial despite the bombastic titles

MarchDub · 24-09-2009 7:52pm

sensibleken wrote: »

theres a book by thomas cahill called 'how the irish saved civilisation' along the same lines. its not that controversial despite the bombastic titles

This book is not thought much of in Irish scholarly circles and was badly reviewed by anyone who knows anything about that period - it's not the title that is in dispute but the content. Cahill really does not understand the textual material he is working with - takes the propaganda about Patrick as history, for example, and treats the mythologies as history. Sorry, but have to say that I would certainly not recommend.

sensibleken · 24-09-2009 8:14pm

MarchDub wrote: »

This book is not thought much of in Irish scholarly circles and was badly reviewed by anyone who knows anything about that period - it's not the title that is in dispute but the content. Cahill really does not understand the textual material he is working with - takes the propaganda about Patrick as history, for example, and treats the mythologies as history. Sorry, but have to say that I would certainly not recommend.

i didnt really care much for it myself. i should have said the idea that irish monks contributed allot in the period after the fall of the roman empire was not that controversial

SEANYBOY1 · 24-09-2009 8:34pm

GeeNorm wrote: »

Dublin was the 'second city of the empire'

http://www.dublinuncovered.net/history.html

I can't find anything on this as I am reluctant to google it on this computer but apparently Dublin was also a major prostitute port and serviced the British navy and merchant navy well.

I was in Glasgow years ago and one person told me that Glasgow was the 2nd city of the british empire. No way was I going to make a claim that Dublin was the 2nd in the last century, I let him have his moment;)

SEANYBOY1 · 24-09-2009 8:48pm

mace wrote: »

I'm doing research at the moment for an upcoming job as a walking tour guide in Dublin and I've been devouring any interesting stories or facts about Irish history (and more specifically Dublin history) I can get my hands on.
Some of my favourites so far are
Henry the Eigth appointed his 10 illegitimate son as Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, the highest post of authority in the country under the king.

Robert Barton was a british guard to the 1916 prisoners before quitting for the republican cause, being elected MP and being one of the Irish delegates to go to London with Michael Collins to sign the Anglo-Irish Treaty

The Choctaw Tribe of native americans were so moved by stories of the Irish suffering during the great famine that they sent in 1847 $170 as aid

A papal bull (this is disputed) from pope Adrian 4th gave king Henry the 2nd permission to invade Ireland

John Macbride, a military leader with experience in guerilla warfare against the british from his actions in the Boer War, and who was married to Maud Gonne, only partook in the rising because he met the rebels on the way to the GPO, he had no prior dealings with them

The son of Maud Gonne and John Macbride would grow up to be head of the IRA as well as winning the Nobel peace prize in 1979

Thats just a few, if you know any i'd love to hear them, and i'll share a few later aswell

Oh and if this is in the wrong forum could it be moved? cheers

Make sure you include 3B Iveagh Buildings B Block, Patricks Street. There is a flat there where my great aunt lived, Nelly Molloy who only died a few years ago. The flat was givin to the family from Guinness as my great uncle returned from WW1 with a load of medals. The Guinness family ownes the Iveagh buildings. Here flat has remained as a frozen time piece. All the plumbing, gas fittings and decor are the original fittings from the 19 century.
The only thing that changed was a flourecent lamp fitting. There was even a programme on RTE about it. You can book a visit in advance.
Every St. Patricks day my Dad brought me and my sister there to visit Nelly, and she would tell us stories about the fighting between the British and the IRa ( she would pronounce the Letter A like ah )during the War of Independance. Priceless memories.

My great great Granny served Maud Gonne as a servant.
Did you know that the Jews started to dig around the Hill of Tara around the early 1900's trying to fing the arc of covenant and Maud Gonne led people up there to stop them, I know more about this but I cant remember now.

MarchDub · 24-09-2009 8:50pm

sensibleken wrote: »

i didnt really care much for it myself. i should have said the idea that irish monks contributed allot in the period after the fall of the roman empire was not that controversial

I agree completely. That is an established historical fact. Not only did Irish missionaries spread Christianity - and reestablish it in places where it had been eroded - but in scholarship Irish scholars were major players as advisers and court scholars in the Carolingian and Frankish empires.

We tend to address the issue of the monastic scribes maintaining and transcribing the early Christian writings [which they did] but independent Irish scholarship at this time was especially fine also. Dicuil, Sedulius and Johonnas Scottus Eriugena were especially remarkable. Irish contribution to world scholarship went way beyond the mere copying of earlier Greek and Lain texts. During the so called Dark Ages the Irish emerge as front runners in the areas of philosophy, geography and even Latin grammar.

SEANYBOY1 · 24-09-2009 8:59pm

MarchDub wrote: »

I agree completely. That is an established historical fact. Not only did Irish missionaries spread Christianity - and reestablish it in places where it had been eroded - but in scholarship Irish scholars were major players as advisers and court scholars in the Carolingian and Frankish empires.

We tend to address the issue of the monastic scribes maintaining and transcribing the early Christian writings [which they did] but independent Irish scholarship at this time was especially fine also. Dicuil, Sedulius and Johonnas Scottus Eriugena were especially remarkable. Irish contribution to world scholarship went way beyond the mere copying of earlier Greek and Lain texts. During the so called Dark Ages the Irish emerge as front runners in the areas of philosophy, geography and even Latin grammar.

There was a good programme on BBC a few weeks ago called 'How the Celts Saves Britain'. Also the Monks on The Skellig Islands preseved a lot of lirature, cristianity and culture which was wiped out in occupiued Europe by the Roman Empire.
You might confirm this too that the Desmonds from Munster which I think resided in The Rock Of Cashel educated Kings in Europe in the former un-unified German states. Its no wonder we were fefered to as the land of Saints and Scholars, and then our neighbours decided to put their boot on our troat.
During the time of the Flight of The Earls when they travelled from Ireland to their final destination in The Vatican City they were treated like Royalty throughout Europe despite the English Crown warning European Countries to either arrest them or show them no hospitality.

pablomakaveli · 24-09-2009 10:11pm

SEANYBOY1 wrote: »

My great great Granny served Maud Gonne as a servant.
Did you know that the Jews started to dig around the Hill of Tara around the early 1900's trying to fing the arc of covenant and Maud Gonne led people up there to stop them, I know more about this but I cant remember now.

What gave them the idea it was there?:eek:

pablomakaveli · 24-09-2009 10:17pm

My interest was peaked and i looked it up. It's true.Here's some links:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/71184

and a jewish tourism advert for Ireland

http://tourismresources.ie/jewish/

sensibleken · 25-09-2009 2:12pm

pablomakaveli wrote: »

My interest was peaked and i looked it up. It's true.Here's some links:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/71184

and a jewish tourism advert for Ireland

http://tourismresources.ie/jewish/

haha thats brilliant. the irish are a lost tribe of israel? or to give them their full title the ****ing lost tribe of israel. i can just imagine the scene.

'your going the wrong way Ger O'Miah'
'shut up i know where im going'
'call me stupid but the land of milk and honey is suposed to be in the desert. im bleedin freezin!'
'look. how about we keep going this way until we hit a giant impassable ocean. then well know we are going the wrong way and turn back'

i remember once i was at cairn T at loghcrew talking to a fella from the OPW who was telling me this american lad in a pointy hat turnd up with his followers saying cairn T was his burial mound as he was Jerimiah's reincarnation.
then there was the poepl who though the mounds were built by UFOs.

honestly they wont give us paddys credit for anything

SEANYBOY1 · 25-09-2009 3:53pm

bullpost wrote: »

There was a very interesting series on BBC recently . It controversially put forward the idea that the Irish actually were largely responsible for civilising England and indeed by influence, continental europe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00kps7h/How_the_Celts_Saved_Britain_A_New_Civilisation/

Regardless of your opinion on the programs they do contain lots of really interesting facts about Ireland e.g. some of the dyes used in the book of Kells could only have come from Afghanistan.
Another one was that the British originally allied themselves with the Vatican to break away from Irish influence and this
all came about because the king wanted to have sex during lent!

Yeah I seen that programme. How ironic that the English later broke away from Rome in the future, again over a horny king.
Did you see that BBBC programme Coast, I think it was called. Anyway bless their cotton socks for lumping Ireland in with the British Coastline.
They done a good one and talked about the Skellig Island Monks who they even said themselves preserved a lot of Western European Christianity and culture which would have otherwise been lost if the Romans had reached Hibernia.

SEANYBOY1 · 25-09-2009 4:00pm

sensibleken wrote: »

Heres a brilliant treatise on the like of Zozimus, fantastically researched and entertaining. well worth a bed time read

http://www.chaptersofdublin.com/books/General/zozimus.htm

I'm glad I seen this now. Zozimus was buried in a paupers grave as was many people in days gone by. My dad, Kevin Molloy actually got his grave a proper headstone and the function room upstairs in The Submarine Bar in Crumlin was renamed 'The Zozimus Room' in his honour as he got the owners of the place to get finacially involved. As far as I know the function room has since been renamed.
I must ask my dad for more info on this and I will post it up here.

Fratton Fred · 25-09-2009 4:15pm

SEANYBOY1 wrote: »

Yeah I seen that programme. How ironic that the English later broke away from Rome in the future, again over a horny king.
Did you see that BBBC programme Coast, I think it was called. Anyway bless their cotton socks for lumping Ireland in with the British Coastline.

the (Excellent) series also included France and Scandanavia coastlines as well. If you watched it through less bigotted eyes you would have found a lot of very interesting historical facts in there, like the carving of mill Stones in Waterford and the one I qouted earlier, about seismology and Killiney beach.

SEANYBOY1 wrote: »

They done a good one and talked about the Skellig Island Monks who they even said themselves preserved a lot of Western European Christianity and culture which would have otherwise been lost if the Romans had reached Hibernia.

:rolleyes:

ejmaztec · 25-09-2009 9:04pm

SEANYBOY1 wrote: »

They done a good one and talked about the Skellig Island Monks who they even said themselves preserved a lot of Western European Christianity and culture which would have otherwise been lost if the Romans had reached Hibernia.

Are you sure about this?

pablomakaveli · 25-09-2009 10:19pm

I would'nt think the Skellig Island monks would have had the resources to do this. They lived a fairly basic lifestyle.

Interesting irish historical facts

Comments