Interesting irish historical facts

mace

I'm doing research at the moment for an upcoming job as a walking tour guide in Dublin and I've been devouring any interesting stories or facts about Irish history (and more specifically Dublin history) I can get my hands on.
Some of my favourites so far are

• Henry the Eigth appointed his 10 illegitimate son as Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, the highest post of authority in the country under the king.
• Robert Barton was a british guard to the 1916 prisoners before quitting for the republican cause, being elected MP and being one of the Irish delegates to go to London with Michael Collins to sign the Anglo-Irish Treaty
• The Choctaw Tribe of native americans were so moved by stories of the Irish suffering during the great famine that they sent in 1847 $170 as aid
• A papal bull (this is disputed) from pope Adrian 4th gave king Henry the 2nd permission to invade Ireland
• John Macbride, a military leader with experience in guerilla warfare against the british from his actions in the Boer War, and who was married to Maud Gonne, only partook in the rising because he met the rebels on the way to the GPO, he had no prior dealings with them
• The son of Maud Gonne and John Macbride would grow up to be head of the IRA as well as winning the Nobel peace prize in 1979

Thats just a few, if you know any i'd love to hear them, and i'll share a few later aswell

Oh and if this is in the wrong forum could it be moved? cheers

Fratton Fred

Killiney beach is the birth place of seismology.

Maybe i should add, Robert Mallet who is considered to be the father of Seismology carried out his tests on Killiny Beach by detonating gun powder underground and measuring the size of the blast using a dish containing mercury.

http://www.dias.ie/lang/en/cosmic/geo/killiney.html

McArmalite

mace wrote: »

I'm doing research at the moment for an upcoming job as a walking tour guide in Dublin and I've been devouring any interesting stories or facts about Irish history (and more specifically Dublin history) I can get my hands on.
Some of my favourites so far are

• Henry the Eigth appointed his 10 illegitimate son as Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, the highest post of authority in the country under the king.
• Robert Barton was a british guard to the 1916 prisoners before quitting for the republican cause, being elected MP and being one of the Irish delegates to go to London with Michael Collins to sign the Anglo-Irish Treaty
• The Choctaw Tribe of native americans were so moved by stories of the Irish suffering during the great famine that they sent in 1847 $170 as aid
• A papal bull (this is disputed) from pope Adrian 4th gave king Henry the 2nd permission to invade Ireland
• John Macbride, a military leader with experience in guerilla warfare against the british from his actions in the Boer War, and who was married to Maud Gonne, only partook in the rising because he met the rebels on the way to the GPO, he had no prior dealings with them
• The son of Maud Gonne and John Macbride would grow up to be head of the IRA as well as winning the Nobel peace prize in 1979

Thats just a few, if you know any i'd love to hear them, and i'll share a few later aswell

Oh and if this is in the wrong forum could it be moved? cheers

Maud Gonne and John Macbride's son Sean who joined the IRA in 1919 at 15 years of age, is the only person to have won the Nobel and Lenin Peace Prize ( Soviet equivalent to the Nobel Peace Prize) and also was a founding member of Amnesty International.

The name Dublin is derived from the Irish name Dubh Linn (meaning "black pool"). The Dubh Linn was a lake used by the Vikings to moor their ships and was connected to the Liffey by the Poddle. The Dubh Linn and Poddle were covered during the early 1700s, and as the city expanded they were largely forgotten about. The Dubh Linn was situated where the Castle Garden is now located, opposite the Chester Beatty Library in Dublin Castle. The name that became associated with the city from the 13th century on in Irish is Baile Átha Cliath (meaning "town of the hurdled ford"), with Dublin remaining in English. It was first written as such in 1368 in the Annals of Ulster. Áth Cliath is a place-name referring to a fording point of the Liffey in the vicinity of Heuston Station.

GhostInTheRuins

McArmalite wrote: »

The name that became associated with the city from the 13th century on in Irish is Baile Átha Cliath (meaning "town of the hurdled ford"), with Dublin remaining in English. It was first written as such in 1368 in the Annals of Ulster. Áth Cliath is a place-name referring to a fording point of the Liffey in the vicinity of Heuston Station.

The most unusual origin for the name Áth Cliath that I've come across is the following (I know it's more suited to the mythology forum than here but maybe someone will find it interesting) The Dagda and his men killed a giant four-headed monster called the Matae, and ripped his body to shreds and threw all the pieces of him into the Boyne. His breast bone (Called the cliath) Went downstream, out to sea, along the coast and landed at the ford which from then on was to be known as Áth Cliath. There isn't much mention of this legend online though, best I could find was here.

mega man

A Jew financed Strongbows expedition to Ireland.

Darlughda

The severed heads of Gaelic chieftain rebels used to be hung on spikes at the entrance to Dublin Castle as an a detterent to other chieftains resisting Tudor colonization.

mega man

The ulster dialect of irish use to be spoken in Co. Mayo up until the 20th century as a result of the platations.

McArmalite

mega man wrote: »

A Jew financed Strongbows expedition to Ireland.

I would have thought yer man in the Vatican more respondcible myself.

pjproby

St James Gate was so named because it was the departure point for pilgrims en route from Dublin to the shrine of St James at Santiago de Compostella in Spain.

source_The Guinness Story-Edward J Bourke-O'Brien Press-2009

crushproof

Shock and awe treatment for the tourists if you're on the Ha'penny bridge or O'Connell Bridge.

I heard before that that a suggestion was made to cover over the Liffey with tarmac and build a dual carraigeway over it from Heuston to O'Connell Bridge!
I can't find any back up evidence but I definately remember reading it somewhere. And it really isn't suprising considering planning attitudes in Dublin back in the day (and today!).

Judgement Day

There have been all sorts of madcap schemes for the Liffey including putting it in a deep channel in the existing river bed and putting all sorts of 'attractions' on the reclaimed ground.

The defaced monument at the junction of Hawkins Street and Burgh Quay is a story that deserves mention:

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:BvAIbMWXO3sJ:www.limerick.ie/media/Media,4161,en.pdf+memorial+at+townsend+street&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

Sorry the link is the best that I can do. The almost forgotten monument was erected to the bravery of a Dublin policeman who died on the spot in 1905 trying to rescue three people who were overcome by gas in a sewer beneath the road. A true hero who deserves to be mentioned on any walking tour and the City Council should be ashamed at how neglected his memorial has become.

murrayp4

Judgement Day wrote: »

There have been all sorts of madcap schemes for the Liffey including putting it in a deep channel in the existing river bed and putting all sorts of 'attractions' on the reclaimed ground.

The defaced monument at the junction of Hawkins Street and Burgh Quay is a story that deserves mention:

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:BvAIbMWXO3sJ:www.limerick.ie/media/Media,4161,en.pdf+memorial+at+townsend+street&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

Sorry the link is the best that I can do. The almost forgotten monument was erected to the bravery of a Dublin policeman who died on the spot in 1905 trying to rescue three people who were overcome by gas in a sewer beneath the road. A true hero who deserves to be mentioned on any walking tour and the City Council should be ashamed at how neglected his memorial has become.

There's always a terrible smell at that monument. I wonder is it the same gas??

crushproof

Judgement Day wrote: »

There have been all sorts of madcap schemes for the Liffey including putting it in a deep channel in the existing river bed and putting all sorts of 'attractions' on the reclaimed ground.

The defaced monument at the junction of Hawkins Street and Burgh Quay is a story that deserves mention:

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:BvAIbMWXO3sJ:www.limerick.ie/media/Media,4161,en.pdf+memorial+at+townsend+street&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

Sorry the link is the best that I can do. The almost forgotten monument was erected to the bravery of a Dublin policeman who died on the spot in 1905 trying to rescue three people who were overcome by gas in a sewer beneath the road. A true hero who deserves to be mentioned on any walking tour and the City Council should be ashamed at how neglected his memorial has become.

Despite always walking past that memorial for years I sat down by it a couple of weeks while waiting for Citylink. Naturally enough I turned around for a read. What a hero and such a shame that its daubed in graffiti and stuck on traffic island in the middle of bus lanes.

GeeNorm

Dublin was the 'second city of the empire'

http://www.dublinuncovered.net/history.html

I can't find anything on this as I am reluctant to google it on this computer but apparently Dublin was also a major prostitute port and serviced the British navy and merchant navy well.

Judgement Day

GeeNorm wrote: »

Dublin was the 'second city of the empire'

http://www.dublinuncovered.net/history.html

I can't find anything on this as I am reluctant to google it on this computer but apparently Dublin was also a major prostitute port and serviced the British navy and merchant navy well.

Well, that's hardly earth shattering or unique to Dublin - every city/town where major numbers of soldiers/sailors are based is the same the world over - Saigon, Berlin, Portsmouth (Southampton!), Manilla, Subic Bay etc.etc...and hardly something your average tourist wants to hear about!

Fratton Fred

Judgement Day wrote: »

Well, that's hardly earth shattering or unique to Dublin - every city/town where major numbers of soldiers/sailors are based is the same the world over - Siagon, Berlin, Portsmouth, Manilla etc.etc...and hardly something your average tourist wants to hear about!

Hey, all the whores are/were in Southampton :P

OP, You might want to mention the work captain bligh (Of mutiny on the bounty fame) did in Dublin bay and harbour.

pablomakaveli

Did'nt Christopher Columbus visit Galway a few years before his voyage to the Americas.

pjproby

In the late 19th century as much as one third of the British Army suffered from STD's and the British army believed that Dublin played a significant role in the spread of these diseases.

McArmalite

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Did'nt Christopher Columbus visit Galway a few years before his voyage to the Americas.

I've heard this before, and also heard that at least one Irishman went with him on his voyage of discovery. TBH, sounds a bit like the everyone famous has an Irish granny bit to me....

mace

apparently, the original lease for the guinness's for st james gate was £45 a year for 9000 years

994

Virtually all alphabets are derived from Proto-Sinaitic - except for 5, one of which is Ogham.

mikemac

The river Poddle flows under Dublin Castle.
At one stage it was feared there was a Fenian plot to plant explosives under the castle.

Never happened in the end

R.Dub.Fusilier

mace wrote: »

• John Macbride, a military leader with experience in guerilla warfare against the british from his actions in the Boer War, and who was married to Maud Gonne, only partook in the rising because he met the rebels on the way to the GPO, he had no prior dealings with them

this is what has been written for years but if we look at the facts of it is hard to believe that he didnt know about the rising. he had considerable experience fighting the british in the Boer War and men with this experience within the irish nationalist were thin on the ground at the time and i read somewhere that he was a member of the IRB. regardless of the facts he was a brave man and real hero.

MarchDub

mace wrote: »

• John Macbride, a military leader with experience in guerilla warfare against the british from his actions in the Boer War, and who was married to Maud Gonne, only partook in the rising because he met the rebels on the way to the GPO, he had no prior dealings with them

Actually is not true that he had "no prior dealings with them" in any literal sense - MacBride was a member of the IRB and would have known all those involved in the Rising.

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

this is what has been written for years but if we look at the facts of it is hard to believe that he didnt know about the rising. he had considerable experience fighting the british in the Boer War and men with this experience within the irish nationalist were thin on the ground at the time and i read somewhere that he was a member of the IRB. regardless of the facts he was a brave man and real hero.

Yes, he was an active member of the IRB - spent much time in recruitment in fact - but had not joined the Irish Volunteers so would not have received or known about the order to turn out for the rebellion. Remember the orders were a convoluted mess anyway, owing to MacNeills actions. MacBride met MacDonagh just as MacDonagh was about to enter Jacobs Factory - not the Post Office as Mace says - and joined in. With his experience in the Boar War he was immediately made second in command. He was shot by the British in May 1916.

Fratton Fred

Now, MarchDub, I am looking forward to some good stuff on this thread.

You are well read and must hjave pioked up some good trivia in your research.

MarchDub

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Now, MarchDub, I am looking forward to some good stuff on this thread.

You are well read and must hjave pioked up some good trivia in your research.

Funny you should ask - one of my favourite moments in history and the one English coronation I would love to have been present at is the crowning of Lambert Simnel in Christ Church Cathedral in Dublin as King of England. Yes, King of England.

The Irish prelates and well, mostly the FitzGeralds, decided that he was the rightful King of England and proceeded to crown him on 24th May 1487. Then they threw a huge party - the FitzGeralds had a great house in Dublin as well as all those castles.

Meanwhile the first Tudor King of England, Henry VII, was not amused - he was under the impression that he was king.

Fratton Fred

Now that's what I'm talking about!

Fratton Fred

There are a lot of great things that have happened in this country, but people get too hung up on Irish history being all about Britain.

For example, if you like trains, Ireland had a new fangled electric train built by some german inventor called siemens up in portrush. There was also an interesting concept called the atmospheric railway that was built between Kingstown\dun laoghaire\mallin and Dalkey. That could be the future of rail transport

994

Handel's "Messiah" was first performed in a music hall on Fishamble Street.

Magpie!

George Plantagenet Duke of Clarence (brother of Edward IV and Richard III of the princes in the tower scandal and Shakespear fame) was born in Dublin in the year his father (Duke of York) was lord leuitenant of ireland. I assume he was born in dublin Castle and he was christened in the abbey off Capel street where the luas line now runs (name escapes me now).

Fascinating family. Tore themselves apart after winning the War of Roses and allowed Henry Tudor to take the throne.

George was drowned in a barrel of wine in the tower of London where he was being held after being convicted of treason against his brother (Edward IV)

McArmalite

The very first All Ireland Football Final took place at Beech Hill Ave in Donnybrook on April 23rd 1887 when Limerick played Louth. In those days the Counties were represented by the County Club Champions and Limerick won. There is a plaque at the entrance to the estate to commerate it.

Although Dublin escaped the mass bombing of the war due to Ireland's neutrality, the Luftwaffe mistalenly bombed Dublin on May 31, 1941, and hit the North Wall killing 34 Irish civilians and wounding another 90. It is thought the bombings were due to navigational error and weather, as the Luftwaffe mistook it possibly for Liverpool docks.

And if Germany had won WW2 Fratton Fred would now be known as Fred von Fratton

meathstevie

Lawrence of Arabia's origins apparently lead back to Westmeath (close to Delvin ) . The result of a fling between a servant and the lord of the manor.

R.Dub.Fusilier

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Did'nt Christopher Columbus visit Galway a few years before his voyage to the Americas.

he had two irish men with him and i think one Englishman. i read it in an old book about queen Isabella of Spain

emanresu

mace wrote: »

• Henry the Eigth appointed his 10 illegitimate son as Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, the highest post of authority in the country under the king.

. . .
his 10 year old illegitimate son

• The Choctaw Tribe of native americans were so moved by stories of the Irish suffering during the great famine that they sent in 1847 $170 as aid

. . .
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choctaw
"Midway through the Great Irish Famine (1845-1849, a group of Choctaws collected $710 (although many articles say the original amount was $170 after a misprint in Angi Debo's The Rise and Fall of the Choctaw Nation) and sent it to help starving Irish men, women and children. "It had been just 16 years since the Choctaw people had experienced the Trail of Tears, and they had faced starvation ... It was an amazing gesture. By today's standards, it might be a million dollars" according to Judy Allen, editor of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma's newspaper, Bishinik, based at the Oklahoma Choctaw tribal headquarters in Durant, Oklahoma."

MarchDub

emanresu wrote: »

. . .
. . .
[/list]
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choctaw
"Midway through the Great Irish Famine (1845-1849, a group of Choctaws collected $710 (although many articles say the original amount was $170 after a misprint in Angi Debo's The Rise and Fall of the Choctaw Nation) and sent it to help starving Irish men, women and children. "It had been just 16 years since the Choctaw people had experienced the Trail of Tears, and they had faced starvation ... It was an amazing gesture. By today's standards, it might be a million dollars" according to Judy Allen, editor of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma's newspaper, Bishinik, based at the Oklahoma Choctaw tribal headquarters in Durant, Oklahoma."

Wiki is notoriously an unreliable source - it's choc full of errors. There is no citation given in this wiki article for the claim of "misprint" so I dug a little and found that the original source - the Arkansas Intelligencer (Arkansas, USA), 3 April 1847 - states that the donation was in fact $170.

http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/American_Donations

Kalashnikov_Kid

Throughout the 19th and early 20th Centuries, the slums of Dublin were notorious and were considered only behind Moscow as the worst slums in Europe.

There was a little-known second river of Dublin that was crucial in its foundation - the River Poddle.

There was a long-standing rivalry between the Gardiner estates of the Northside and the Pembroke estates of the Southside during the 17th Century - the respective fortunes of each family would go someway in defining the perceived class differences bisected by the Liffey today.

Indeed, for a while the Northside was seen as the more fashionable area - with Sackville (O'Connell) Street originally constructed as a residential street. Interestingly O'Connell Street Lower predates O'Connell Street Upper. This all changed when the Earl of Leinster (I think) moved across the river to reside in where Leinster House is today.

Maybe I did learn something from my Arts degree apart from how to open a bottle of beer with my teeth

Dr. Baltar

McArmalite wrote: »

Although Dublin escaped the mass bombing of the war due to Ireland's neutrality, the Luftwaffe mistalenly bombed Dublin on May 31, 1941, and hit the North Wall killing 34 Irish civilians and wounding another 90. It is thought the bombings were due to navigational error and weather, as the Luftwaffe mistook it possibly for Liverpool docks.

Documents were found in Berlin after World War II which suggested that the bombing of Dublin was not an accident. Some historians are of the opinion that after the bombing of Belfast and Dealera's sending of fire trucks to the north to put out the fires, the germans saw this action s a breach of neautrality and so decided to bomb the capital.

McArmalite

Sir Baralot wrote: »

Documents were found in Berlin after World War II which suggested that the bombing of Dublin was not an accident. Some historians are of the opinion that after the bombing of Belfast and Dealera's sending of fire trucks to the north to put out the fires, the germans saw this action s a breach of neautrality and so decided to bomb the capital.

Fine if it's true but seems a bit far fetched to me. Could you post the links/references that " Documents were found in Berlin after World War II which suggested that the bombing of Dublin was not an accident. " and " the germans saw this action s a breach of neautrality and so decided to bomb the capital. " ?

pablomakaveli

For a while the Russian crown jewels were kept in Ireland as collateral for a loan given by the Irish Republics government to the Russians shortly around the time of the Russian revolution.

Harry Boland brought them to Ireland and kept them in his mothers house.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Crown_Jewels

bullpost

When Michael Collins was in negotiations with the British he was shown plans for the future of Dublin, including plans to build an underground rail system similar to Londons tube.
He was said to have joked that if his intelligence had been good enough to have known about this he would have held off a little longer before beginning the war of independence.

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

The very first All Ireland Football Final took place at Beech Hill Ave in Donnybrook on April 23rd 1887 when Limerick played Louth. In those days the Counties were represented by the County Club Champions and Limerick won. There is a plaque at the entrance to the estate to commerate it.

Although Dublin escaped the mass bombing of the war due to Ireland's neutrality, the Luftwaffe mistalenly bombed Dublin on May 31, 1941, and hit the North Wall killing 34 Irish civilians and wounding another 90. It is thought the bombings were due to navigational error and weather, as the Luftwaffe mistook it possibly for Liverpool docks.

And if Germany had won WW2 Fratton Fred would now be known as Fred von Fratton

I think they also bombed Dun Laoghaire as well.

It is actually freidrich von Frattonoff if you don't mind:D

Judgement Day

Fred - I think that you are incorrect about Dun Laoghaire or least I never heard of it before. Then again, I never heard about the Russian Crown Jewels being in Ireland before but when I see Wikipedia as the source I am slightly dubious.

pablomakaveli

Judgement Day wrote: »

Fred - I think that you are incorrect about Dun Laoghaire or least I never heard of it before. Then again, I never heard about the Russian Crown Jewels being in Ireland before but when I see Wikipedia as the source I am slightly dubious.

Here then:
http://www.irelandinformationguide.com/Michael_Collins_(Irish_leader)

Look at the minister for finance section.

Fred is also right btw.
http://www.streetsofdublin.com/dunlaoghaire/history.html

Judgement Day

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Here then:
http://www.irelandinformationguide.com/Michael_Collins_(Irish_leader)

Look at the minister for finance section.

Fred is also right btw.
http://www.streetsofdublin.com/dunlaoghaire/history.html

Thanks for that - happy to be proved wrong - again (!) - anyway two more things for me to try and remember in my increasingly befuddled brain.

R.Dub.Fusilier

Sir Baralot wrote: »

Documents were found in Berlin after World War II which suggested that the bombing of Dublin was not an accident. Some historians are of the opinion that after the bombing of Belfast and Dealera's sending of fire trucks to the north to put out the fires, the germans saw this action s a breach of neautrality and so decided to bomb the capital.

I can’t remember in what book , but when the Germans bombed Belfast docks for the first time their bombs fell short of their targets , but the next time they were more accurate and the British rightly or wrongly blamed the Irish / IRA . I’m not sure of the timeline on this but when there was another raid on Belfast the British bent the radio waves that the German bombers were using and bombed Dublin thinking it was Belfast . Apparently the brits admitted this in the 50s.

Balmed Out

Bandon was a walled prodestant town and apparently had something in the manner of "No catholic may enter" written on the gateway. Beneath was graffitied with "so say the gates of hell".

Fratton Fred

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

I can’t remember in what book , but when the Germans bombed Belfast docks for the first time their bombs fell short of their targets , but the next time they were more accurate and the British rightly or wrongly blamed the Irish / IRA . I’m not sure of the timeline on this but when there was another raid on Belfast the British bent the radio waves that the German bombers were using and bombed Dublin thinking it was Belfast . Apparently the brits admitted this in the 50s.

That's not strictly true. Good article here
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/why-the-nazis-bombed-dublin-1075966.html

Fratton Fred

There are actually two O'Connell bridges in Dublin

R.Dub.Fusilier

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's not strictly true. Good article here
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/why-the-nazis-bombed-dublin-1075966.html

'But given Churchill's state of suppressed fury with de Valera, the British would probably not have been upset if they had sent the Luftwaffe off to bomb Dublin.'

the last line from the link says it all . Churchill was never a friend of the Irish .

MarchDub

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

'But given Churchill's state of suppressed fury with de Valera, the British would probably not have been upset if they had sent the Luftwaffe off to bomb Dublin.'

the last line from the link says it all . Churchill was never a friend of the Irish .

I was about to make the same comment - "suppressed fury" is an understatement. But an interesting article nonetheless.

Fratton Fred

So says an article written in an Irish newspaper.

Its irrelevant, the British couldn't bend beams, only scramble them a bit. XE jamming I think it was called. The BBC antenna in crystal palace was used I think.