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Suicide- Should it be discussed openly.

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    #32
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Sucide can be very rational. Just not to anybody on the outside. Saying it is irrational is not right.


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    #33
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    bada_bing wrote: »
    and so we have a vicious circle that continues because of attitudes like that. i can't beleive you think child and sexual abuse should be swept under the carpet. Are you a member of the catholic church or what??

    The post was intended sarcastically. Obviously the best way to heal and deal with serious social issues is to confront and discuss them. Thanks for understanding


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    #34
    Theta
    Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭Theta


    I was reading on the BBC news yesterday that 28 people killed themselves this year while working for France Telecom. When the company asked why it was so high. They simply said it was statistical a normal figure for a company of that size.

    Jaysus.


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    #35
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    irlmarc wrote: »
    I was reading on the BBC news yesterday that 28 people killed themselves this year while working for France Telecom. When the company asked why it was so high. They simply said it was statistical a normal figure for a company of that size.

    Jaysus.

    The shocking thing about that is that the last suicide at France Telecom was a guy who slit his own throat in the office in front of his colleagues.

    That gives me the impression that there is more to that group of suicides that someone being so depressed that they hang themselves in their own home.


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    #36
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    Daroxtar wrote: »
    Maybe if people were fully convinced that there was no God and no afterlife they wouldn't be as ready to kill themselves. It's possible that a lot of people think that if they commit suicide then what comes next will be better but if nothing comes next then their death is final in a way that only death can be and suicide has only ended their life,not given them a new pain free one. Would there be as many suicide bombers if there was no promise of a horde of virgins and the glories of heaven?

    you have it back to front , its a strong belief in god that traditionally has prevented people from commiting suicide , fear of punishement etc which is why suicide rates are higher in more secular countries

    btw , i believe commiting suicide is the bravest thing anyone can do , to make the ultimate descision , to take a step into the complete unknown , the biggest false cliche out there is that sucide is a cowards way out , the saying has become popular due to the churches creation of the term as a means of detering people , i.e . i wont do it because i will be branded a coward , properly anylised , how could anyone possibly conclude that it was a cowardly act


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    #37
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users Posts: 34,068 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    I have known few people my age 23-30 yo) who have passed on there life. One person was close friend.

    I find it so sad.

    But one thing I hate is when people say that these people are selfish. How can person say that. Some people find this world a lonely maybe heartbreaking place to live in.

    The taughts for people to take there own life must be unimaginable.

    I can understand to point the love ones that they have left behind can feel angry and so on. But I think we need to understand that people may not see light at end of tunnel or may never feel they will.

    Its just a taught


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    #38
    wantacookie
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭wantacookie


    i am curious as to why the media feel the need to always cover it up, i heard on the news today that a man was found dead in his appartmant alone but they 'aren't treatin it as suspcious'.
    i took this to mean one of two things suicide or natural causes, but i doubt the media would have any reservations against sayin natural causes.

    the stigma around suuicide effects people contemplating it but also the families who have been affected by it, they feel that there is no one to talk to and that they are looked down upon by the community!

    another question i wonder is wat age is too young to broach the subject with children? especially if it has occured in the family. is it better to cover up wat has happen to protect them?

    this is a really interestin thread


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    #39
    Snakeblood
    Registered Users Posts: 4,466 ✭✭✭Snakeblood


    irish_bob wrote: »
    you have it back to front , its a strong belief in god that traditionally has prevented people from commiting suicide , fear of punishement etc which is why suicide rates are higher in more secular countries

    btw , i believe commiting suicide is the bravest thing anyone can do , to make the ultimate descision , to take a step into the complete unknown , the biggest false cliche out there is that sucide is a cowards way out , the saying has become popular due to the churches creation of the term as a means of detering people , i.e . i wont do it because i will be branded a coward , properly anylised , how could anyone possibly conclude that it was a cowardly act

    I don't think it's a brave or a cowardly thing, it depends on why people do it. You get kids who don't understand the concept of mortality doing it, you get people who don't see any way out of their situation, and you get people who want to do it to show that they have power over themselves at the last.


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    #40
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    faceman wrote: »
    In Ireland each year, more people commit suicide than are killed on the roads yet the focus is more on road safety.


    I often wonder too if the figures are further masked. Its possible that some of these one vehicle collisions are in fact suicides. Unfortunatly, it impossible to prove unless the person has left a explict suicide note. Even if they did it is unlikely the death would be recored as suicide.


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    #41
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    Euro_Kraut wrote: »
    I often wonder too if the figures are further masked. Its possible that some of these one vehicle collisions are in fact suicides. Unfortunatly, it impossible to prove unless the person has left a explict suicide note. Even if they did it is unlikely the death would be recored as suicide.

    I think there is still a LOT of covering up. I heard a woman from a suicide awareness group on the radio a month ago who said that there are counties in Ireland where the coroner did not return a single verdict of suicide for the whole of last year. Which is very hard to believe.


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    #42
    Daroxtar
    Registered Users Posts: 4,330 ✭✭✭Daroxtar


    Irish bob, I cant see any bravery in it, only despair and insanity. Bravery to me and to most would mean digging deeper and soldiering on. And i dont mean Insanity in a flippant way, i mean insanity in a crushing, all-encompassing, unable to think beyond a certain point kind of way.

    And while the fear of god may be seen as a deterrent, surely the prospect of absolute nothingness would be a bigger one?


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    #43
    abouttobebanned
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    These are my observations about suicide.

    First off, people say that it's the cowardly way out. In many ways they're right, it takes an enoormous amount of character to stand up and face your problems. However, I don't think the balls that it takes to actually end your life should be ignored.

    Suicide happens because someone can't see a way out of their problems. And inevitably people always say, why didn't he just come and talk to me. In most cases what would happen if they came and talked to someone...that someone would probably blow up in his/her face with rage and lectures etc. Sometimes it just takes the threat of suicide for someone to be more understanding.

    I think the only way we can stop the increasing amount of suicides that are happening to our young people is to promote more open and understanding relationships. People will always look for an easier way out if the altervative is that bad.

    There is a good chance that there is someone in your life now who is suffering (possibly due to money problems in this current climate), it might be a good idea to monitor their behaviour...are they keeping themselves to themselves a lot? Being overly quiet when they used to be outgoing?

    Another thing...aggresive banks and companies demanding money from people should be monitored by the government. Okay, companies and institutions need to get paid, but aggresive tactics can leave people thinking they have no hope, and no way out. Except one...


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    #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Discussed openly, i lost a very good friend 3 years ago but at the same time people dont want to talk about it.


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    #45
    DamoDLK
    Registered Users Posts: 716 ✭✭✭DamoDLK


    Suicide, needs to be openly discussed, Ireland is still somewhat backward when it comes to issues of mental health, it seems its only in the recent past that the topic is surfacing in public.


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    #46
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,009 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Snakeblood wrote: »
    I don't think it's a brave or a cowardly thing, it depends on why people do it. You get kids who don't understand the concept of mortality doing it, you get people who don't see any way out of their situation, and you get people who want to do it to show that they have power over themselves at the last.

    And also, the same "religious" people, having gone beyond desperation, won't have the same confidence in their "god", for allowing them to get into that mental state, and worrying about divine retribution won't come into it.


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    #47
    me-skywalker
    Registered Users Posts: 3,339 ✭✭✭me-skywalker


    I honestly dont think you can believe that person who committs to suicide is really thinking about what comes next. I think its definitely more a case of how they are dealing with and coping with whats happening in their life at this moment.

    As for the Churhc aspect, people in a vulnerable state of mind can be persuaded and led by priests and ministers into a religious state of mind to help their problems. Which I agree can aid them but if lack of faith in religion was the problem then we would all be religious zealots.


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    #48
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Over the past year I took the time to partake in the Gatekeeper suicide awareness and prevention course and the ASIST suicide intervention skills training course. While I've been lucky to have not yet been in a situation where these skills were required, the lessons I learned from the courses are extraordinarily valuable.

    There has been at least one suicide in my family's past, and that happened some years before I was born, but the ripple effects of that man's decision are still felt accutely 25 years on. I was only told the truth of how he died when I was 17, after years of believing the uncle I never met died in an accident. I'm still coming to terms with the implications of it, so I can't imagine how it must have felt for those who really knew him.

    Increasing awareness of suicide and how it can be prevented can only be a good thing. The sad thing is, it always seems to take a high profile tragedy before people take any notice.


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    #49
    mudokon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭mudokon


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    This is actually a misconception if you read the statistics attached in the OP. While they are a higher proportion it's not by much.

    Judging by the IAS statistics from the OP this isnt a misconception, male suicides accounted for 78.9% & female suicides for 21.1% of the period from 1980-2007.

    Suicide should definitely be discussed more openly so the taboo can be broken.


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    #50
    pisslips
    Closed Accounts Posts: 833 ✭✭✭pisslips


    Well, I think it's time we admit that it is someone's choice to commit suicide and whether one feels they have a responsibility to others or not is irrelevant, it is their life to do with as they please.

    I am alive today because I choose to be, not because I am obliged to be.

    It may be a cancer on society but the society needs to change not by demonising the act or condemning the perpectrators but by looking at the causes.

    For me and this is just a guess, the de-humanising of people is a major factor. In order to be competitive and earn a living have self-worth and be respected in modern society you need to fit a certain type of character. You need to be intellegent and often willing to do focussed non-socialable work. Years ago, you had coopers and blacksmiths, farmers and milkmen.
    Today you have factories and the farms have to be huge and mechanised with the farmer working 12 hours a day.

    So that todays worker never gets time to chat with the other local people in his community. Nor does he take pride in his work or see the fruits of his labour. He just maintains a machine or lets a calf die because the vet costs more than the life of the animal or maybe he drives a lorry to europe or programmes a computer or look at sales figures he pretends to care about or answers the phone and take abuse. But the worst thing of all is he doesn't know the people he works with or the neighbours he lives beside.From now on all his relationships will be based on how much he is worth to the other person and they will all be short term.

    Human beings are communal animals but yet when we reach adulthood all that is taken away.We're expected to fill a role for people we'll never meet, doing things we'll never see.

    There is a place for every type of person in a small community or a village. But what do you do these days if your not very smart and/or you look like a melted welly, there's no place for you, nobody cares, your of no USE to anybody.Nobody remebers your name, people don't even see you.


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    #51
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,297 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    You say in the article...
    there are more deaths in Ireland from suicide than fatalities on the road
    ...but you must wonder how many road deaths are suicides? Long straight road, and thtey hit a wall/tree/etc far from the road, killing the single person inside?
    It's generally impulsive
    That sounds odd.
    Daroxtar wrote: »
    It's possible that a lot of people think that if they commit suicide then what comes next will be better
    Many end their life to get to the end of it, as they see no other way.
    blinding wrote: »
    I wonder is it because victims of suicide are very often young men.
    I'm unsure if it's a myth or not, but women are ofter meant to do it in a place where they can be found before it's too late, as a cry for help. Usually men are not found until after they're dead, or sometimes never.
    irish_bob wrote: »
    fear of punishement etc which is why suicide rates are higher in more secular countries
    It doesn't help if the country doesn't keep a record of suicides.
    irish_bob wrote: »
    to make the ultimate descision , to take a step into the complete unknown
    It's a selfish way out. You leave beind nothing but sorrow. The brave seek help.
    IvyTheTerrible wrote: »
    I heard a woman from a suicide awareness group on the radio a month ago who said that there are counties in Ireland where the coroner did not return a single verdict of suicide for the whole of last year. Which is very hard to believe.
    Sometimes this is done on the request of a family. I have no doubt that this was often the case in years past, when there was a stigma attached to it.

    =-=

    I have sort of witnessed a suicide. Well, I only heard the blare of the darts horn, and say the dudes arm comng out from under the train. Seems he stepped out in fromt of the dart at the last minute. A bag, probably containing his belongings, were nearby. I've heard that some people write letters of apology to the train drivers.


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    #52
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    the_syco wrote: »
    I have sort of witnessed a suicide. Well, I only heard the blare of the darts horn, and say the dudes arm comng out from under the train. Seems he stepped out in fromt of the dart at the last minute. A bag, probably containing his belongings, were nearby. I've heard that some people write letters of apology to the train drivers.

    It's a terrible trauma for train drivers, the son of my friend was one in London and gave it up because there had been so many suicides.

    It's an awful thing to find someone who has committed suicide.


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    #53
    Piste
    Registered Users Posts: 11,440 ✭✭✭✭Piste


    I'm going to go against the grain here and say I think suicide is very widely publicised. If you ever read the Irish Times Health supplement almost every week there's an article relating to suicide- be it research or pleas from various agencies. In almost every newspaper there are similar facts and figures published on suicide as well as press releases from various charity organisations.


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    #54
    Denny Crane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2 ✭Denny Crane


    would it be possible for people to stop using the phrase "committing suicide" and use "died by suicide",the former phrase insinuates that a crime has been committed and it is taught on the ASIST course that is the correct way to word it.
    Apologies if this post causes any offence


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    #55
    enda1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,166 ✭✭✭enda1


    I always find it weird that in a country with such a high rate of suicide (supposedly, is this really true?) that I (to the best of my knowledge) don't know anyone who has committed suicide. Probably there has been someone I knew who has, but obviously no one I would regularly hear anything about has.

    When I compare this to my country cousins and country friends, they would have known people who killed themselves. Also people in college who went to "high pressured" schools like some of the ultra rugby ones or highly academic ones had classmates or schoolmates who took that horrible decision.

    The thing is there are so many reasons for suicide ultimately, like for road deaths that no one solution can help them all. But the ones that can most easily be helped and prevented are those which are a result of social stigma, pressure, stress etc., those not caused by sicknesses etc.

    I believe with people still feel that their success as a person is judged in numbers: CAO points, rugby caps, trophies, size of house, salary etc. and that people can't seem to get a bit of perspective! By sheer luck I have grown up in a situation whereby my family and friends are very rounded people with many goals in life and areas of interest. Money was never a great aim nor a big issue. We all went to public schools where the sporting emphasis was on participation if you wanted to and success was praised but not pressured!

    I realise this was a bit of a ramble and perhaps my impression of the situation is a bit askew but its just my two cents.


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    #56
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    Piste wrote: »
    I'm going to go against the grain here and say I think suicide is very widely publicised. If you ever read the Irish Times Health supplement almost every week there's an article relating to suicide- be it research or pleas from various agencies. In almost every newspaper there are similar facts and figures published on suicide as well as press releases from various charity organisations.

    I don't think it's just about the publicising of suicide stats in the media though. What about all the families that pretend it wasn't suicide? People should feel able to talk about it. Depression is very isolating and if people realise that there are other people out there that feel like them, it could help them.


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    #57
    enda1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,166 ✭✭✭enda1


    Denny Crane wrote: »
    would it be possible for people to stop using the phrase "committing suicide" and use "died by suicide",the former phrase insinuates that a crime has been committed and it is taught on the ASIST course that is the correct way to word it.
    Apologies if this post causes any offence

    I think that your post emphasises the rubber gloved nature with which the subject is treated.

    To be honest I don't think that the wording is all that relevant. If you can commit yourself to a psychiatric hospital for care, why can you not commit suicide?


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    #58
    candy-gal1
    Registered Users Posts: 6,568 ✭✭✭candy-gal1


    yes, if people can talk openly about it and why they would be thinking about it it just may lower the rate of suicides greatly.
    there is never a good reason to kill yourself ever, were all going to be gone eventually anyway, why rush :D


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    #59
    skelliser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭skelliser


    i read someone recently that alot of these single vehicle crashes are possibly suicides as well, clear stretch of good road, good driving conditions etc but yet end in disaster


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    #60
    Thomas_S_Hunterson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,151 ✭✭✭Thomas_S_Hunterson


    Denny Crane wrote: »
    would it be possible for people to stop using the phrase "committing suicide" and use "died by suicide",the former phrase insinuates that a crime has been committed and it is taught on the ASIST course that is the correct way to word it.
    Apologies if this post causes any offence

    lol that's hilarious.

    What is it you think committees have done to them?


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    #61
    Novella
    Registered Users Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    Great article there, OP, found it a very interesting read.

    I can't believe there are more deaths in this country every year due to suicide than there are on our roads. If you watch tv, there are so many "Slow down, boys!", "Speed kills", etc ad's but there is never really a word spoken about suicide.

    There is still a huge stigma attached to mental health. I have said it before in a thread in tLL. There are few people who will actually seek help because they are feeling down, even if it is a constant thing and causing a huge strain in their day to day lives. No one really wants to admit weakness.

    I think it's vitally important that we somehow open the lines of communication more and make it easier for people to say that they are finding X and Y hard to deal with, if that makes sense. It is nothing to be ashamed of, by any means.


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