Suicide- Should it be discussed openly.

philologos

Slugs wrote: »

Well let's see, can you not be charged for "attempted murder" or "intention to commit crime". Couldn't it be applied to "attempted suicide". I'm sure in some country it is :P. Don't take it for a statement. if someone can prove me wrong, I'll step back

It's not exactly difficult for people to commit suicide in jail. Criminalising attempted suicide is overall a terrible idea:

Attempted suicide is not a criminal offence in Ireland. Assisted suicide and euthanasia are illegal however. Under Irish law self-harm is not generally seen as a form of attempted suicide.

Daroxtar

irishconvert wrote: »

Which clerics are you talking about? Can you give me some examples?

Who preaches that "all infidels deserve to die"?

Seyyid Qutb and the lunatics in Palestine and across the middle east and on to Indonesia who adhere to the teachings he set down in Ma'alim fi l Tariq. There's plenty of "schools" across pakistan where young men are taught nothing but hatred of western society. There've been a few caught at it in the UK too, that lovely man with the hook hand springs to mind (not the pirate). I don't know their names but to suggest they dont exist is naiivety in the extreme. Its as much as saying that there's no such thing as suicide bombers. The people of Baghdad or the West Bank can testify that they exist.

Anyway, this thread is a discussion about suicide, not the twisted ideals of headcases who abuse faith to spread hatred and convince easily led young men that they can become heroes by commiting acts of carnage so thats all from me on this aspect of things. We can continue in the islamic forum at a later date if you feel the need to keep denying the actions of these people.

Euro_Kraut

As some poster have raised this: Suicide has been decriminalized in Ireland since 1993.

The relevant act is here:http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0011/index.html

It has been decriminalized in the UK since 1961.

Kalashnikov_Kid

Jakkass wrote: »

The only issue in having such an understanding would be with the pro-euthanasia camp. If one supports euthanasia / assisted suicide, people will start to think, why can't I just do it myself?

The same people might also realise that they are not the only ones that are suffering from what is a very common condition, and may therefore see a light at the end of the tunnel and voluntarily seek help as a result.

There is definately a balance, I'll give you that - Bridgend in Wales being a tragic example: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3635396/Bridgend-suicides-It-just-seems-normal-fashionable-almost...-.html

But I definately think that the benefits of discussing mental health issues and suicide more in public would outweigh the advantages - in that personal issues will be dragged out from under the carpet, leading to a reduction in suicide overall.

I think it's appalling that the RTE and other Irish media groups feel that they can't use the word 'suicide' where they deem appropriate in this day and age. I definately think this is stalling the progress of educating people about the facts of mental health.

AlmightyCushion

CatacombKittens wrote: »

I remember seeing on another forum(Thumped) a link to a thread here where someone was at the end of their rope, and posted a suicidal thread.

A moderator(Thaedydal) locked the thread, telling them this wasn't the place(depsite the being the Personal Issues forum) and to contact the "Professionals"(Note: The Samiratans are volunteers). I think this is some twist of Board's policy not to give out "medical advice".

It's very possible that was the only conduit that person had and that moderator's actions could have pushed them over the edge.

I thought that was really shameful, and would like to think we'd stop electing sociopaths as moderators. Forum rules shouldn't come before human life.

I just thought I'd point this out since I noted a few mods thanking the original post of this thread. If you really believe Suicide is a serious issue, then sort this ****e out.

Banned for calling another user a sociopath.

AckwelFoley

CatacombKittens wrote: »

I remember seeing on another forum(Thumped) a link to a thread here where someone was at the end of their rope, and posted a suicidal thread.

A moderator(Thaedydal) locked the thread, telling them this wasn't the place(depsite the being the Personal Issues forum) and to contact the "Professionals"(Note: The Samiratans are volunteers). I think this is some twist of Board's policy not to give out "medical advice".

It's very possible that was the only conduit that person had and that moderator's actions could have pushed them over the edge.

I thought that was really shameful, and would like to think we'd stop electing sociopaths as moderators. Forum rules shouldn't come before human life.

I just thought I'd point this out since I noted a few mods thanking the original post of this thread. If you really believe Suicide is a serious issue, then sort this ****e out.

I remember that issue from that or a similar episode with Thaedydal was in a feedback thread. Your "sociopaths as moderators" comment is completely unfair, although i empathise with how you feel, i do remember Thaed making a rather valid point that on several occasions the moderators have stayed up half the night trying to talk to them. The difficulty is that, the mods there are not professionals nor are they probably in most cases qualified to deal with people in this state, not to mention the moderators are only like you and me, and can get effected by these situations personally.

I dont think that its a case of "the last straw broke the camells back" its more that the moderators need to empathise and guide these people to the proper channels where they can get help

philologos

Kalashnikov Kid: My point is more that if people are to actively support euthanasia, they are giving legitimacy to the point of view that suicide is okay, or an acceptable way to deal with life's problems.

Darlughda

Not every person who is suicidal is mentally ill.

Often this is the case, although the exact diagnosis may be questionable in some cases. Even if the diagnosis is correct, does this not suggest something about the reality for life for an individual experiencing this condition in their life?

It can be hard for a suicidal person to explain how and why their decision is rational to them.
Or how they feel, especially if their intensity of what they experience is abhorrent to another, it may immediately be responded to with emotive reactions that produce immediate negative conclusions in the thinking process or emotional experience.

Despair is very real. However it manifests itself. Some people avoid others who are full of true despair. It disgusts me that despair is seen as a 'loser' in life and a person who is suffering from this experience being shunned and ridiculed.

The Big Red Button

CatacombKittens wrote: »

I remember seeing on another forum(Thumped) a link to a thread here where someone was at the end of their rope, and posted a suicidal thread.

A moderator(Thaedydal) locked the thread, telling them this wasn't the place(depsite the being the Personal Issues forum) and to contact the "Professionals"(Note: The Samiratans are volunteers). I think this is some twist of Board's policy not to give out "medical advice".

To me, that seems completely unfair and unreasonable.

The Samaritans, while volunteers, are highly trained.

Boards members are not in any way trained.

There have been instances in the past where members of unmoderated forums have encouraged and incited suicides. I personally wouldn't be a member of such a forum, and I'm glad that Boards isn't such a place.

Assuming Boards members (i.e. you and I) are not in any way trained, are you really suggesting it would be a good idea to leave a thread like this open?

titan18

RealEstateKing wrote: »

It's high in Ireland for several reasons: The main thing is that we come from a quite traditional, Catholic, repressed Northern European society, with a good deal of the old British "Stiff Upper Lip" mixed into us, making it very difficult for people, particularly men, to express negative emotions in public: Many men in Ireland can live an entire lifetime without ever developing a friend they can actually tell about their problems.

Secondly, we have imposed an American-style Capitalist, individualistic, lifestyle-obsessed culture on top of this one in the past 20-odd years. The two do not necessarily sit very well with each other.

The competitive American type of culture works reasonably well, if one lives in an advanced industrial economy like America where the sky is the limit, where you can simply pack up and move on when things don't work out for you. Ireland, even at the height of the Celtic Tiger, is by neccessity a land of limited opportunites: Not only is it small, it is also a country that it is very hard to better yourself in. If you're born a "knacker" from Finglas, it is hard to ever move up, the odds are stacked against you. Ireland is like a small town where everybody knows everybody else, it is not an easy place to reinvent yourself in.

In a sense the good side of our traditional culture was that it designed itself to deal with this reality: Irish culture was very good at commisseration, and very good at comforting the unhappy - we threw this away to chase American-style optimism and success - while ignoring that this dream was only a reality for a very small number of us. The rest were simply made to feel more like losers than they ever had before.

And that's without mentioning the weather, which lets face it, is also a major reason for this: We have what is probably the least amount of direct sunshine of any inhabited place in the world: Sure Scandinavian countries/Canada etc, get dark and cold winters and all, but at least they have a nice warm, sunny, Summer to look forward to. We just have endless grey nothingness. From what I can see, we get more sun in the Winter now than we do in the Summer. Though this is probably not the major cause of suicide, I'm sure it plays a part.

The US,Canada and the Scandinavian countries all have higher suicide rates than us.Like I said previously,Ireland has one of the lowest suicide rates out of the industrialised countries.The UK having one of the least.

Darlughda

Samaritans are a voluntary anonymous organisation. There may well be many members of Boards who are Samaritans.

hedgeh0g

A new site

www.turn2me.ie

AckwelFoley

Elessar wrote: »

I don't understand, are you happy or indifferent at still being alive? What took those feelings of despair away? Or was it just a bad day?

I used the phrase "thank god" and "Happy" to be alive.
No, it wasnt a bad day, i had being diagnosed 6 years previous to that point with clinical depression (bi-polar)

What took the feelings away?

Medication, therapy, rest and incredible support from family and friends

Poor Uncle Tom

chatterpillar wrote: »

Assuming Boards members (i.e. you and I) are not in any way trained, are you really suggesting it would be a good idea to leave a thread like this open?

It's good to talk, sometimes people only listen to those they don't know believing an abject opinion might help.

AlmightyCushion

Darlughda wrote: »

Samaritans are a voluntary anonymous organisation. There may well be many members of Boards who are Samaritans.

There are many trolls and twats on boards and any gob****e with an email address can sign up in less than a minute. Leaving a thread where someone is contemplating suicide open in a very dangerous thing. If you call the samaritans there is no risk of some dickhead jumping in and screaming "Lol, do it, it'll be a laugh." or some other such crap. There is very little to stop that happening here.

schumacher

RealEstateKing wrote: »

It's high in Ireland for several reasons: The main thing is that we come from a quite traditional, Catholic, repressed Northern European society, with a good deal of the old British "Stiff Upper Lip" mixed into us, making it very difficult for people, particularly men, to express negative emotions in public: Many men in Ireland can live an entire lifetime without ever developing a friend they can actually tell about their problems.

Secondly, we have imposed an American-style Capitalist, individualistic, lifestyle-obsessed culture on top of this one in the past 20-odd years. The two do not necessarily sit very well with each other.

The competitive American type of culture works reasonably well, if one lives in an advanced industrial economy like America where the sky is the limit, where you can simply pack up and move on when things don't work out for you. Ireland, even at the height of the Celtic Tiger, is by neccessity a land of limited opportunites: Not only is it small, it is also a country that it is very hard to better yourself in. If you're born a "knacker" from Finglas, it is hard to ever move up, the odds are stacked against you. Ireland is like a small town where everybody knows everybody else, it is not an easy place to reinvent yourself in.

In a sense the good side of our traditional culture was that it designed itself to deal with this reality: Irish culture was very good at commisseration, and very good at comforting the unhappy - we threw this away to chase American-style optimism and success - while ignoring that this dream was only a reality for a very small number of us. The rest were simply made to feel more like losers than they ever had before.

And that's without mentioning the weather, which lets face it, is also a major reason for this: We have what is probably the least amount of direct sunshine of any inhabited place in the world: Sure Scandinavian countries/Canada etc, get dark and cold winters and all, but at least they have a nice warm, sunny, Summer to look forward to. We just have endless grey nothingness. From what I can see, we get more sun in the Winter now than we do in the Summer. Though this is probably not the major cause of suicide, I'm sure it plays a part.

I dont think the fact that we come from a Catholic tradition is a reason for more suicide. Ireland is now a secular state. Noone pays any attention to the Church anymore except for a minority especially not young males. In fact I say the more religious a country is the less suicide there is.

Poor Uncle Tom

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

There are many trolls and twats on boards and any gob****e with an email address can sign up in less than a minute. Leaving a thread where someone is contemplating suicide open in a very dangerous thing. If you call the samaritans there is no risk of some dickhead jumping in and screaming "Lol, do it, it'll be a laugh." or some other such crap. There is very little to stop that happening here.

Of course you're right.

The Big Red Button

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

It's good to talk, sometimes people only listen to those they don't know believing an abject opinion might help.

You mean ... "objective" perhaps? I can't imagine an "abject"* opinion would help any suicidal person!



*Definition of abject = most unfortunate or miserable; without hope because there seems to be no possibility of comfort or success

docmol

snyper wrote: »

Depression and clinical depression are related as is my football boot and the boot of my car.. pretty much by name only.

Thats one of Clinical depressions biggest problem, the feeling people have that they are whingers and "sure we all get sad" reactions from others.

Ive posted it before, ill post it again..

The feeling of Depression most people get is "sh1te, united lost at the weekend, i spent fortune in the pub and can remember none of it and i think on top of that im goding to lose my job"

Clinical depression feels like... "My mother, father, sister, brother, best friend, my only child and wife were all killed in a freak road accident yesterday" Imagine that feeling inside, and have to live with it now and again for most of your adult life sometimes for weeks on end, and even when you dont feel like that, knowing it will come back.

Not sure I understand your post. Believe me I know all about clincal depression. My point was that being depressed, clinical or not, can be a reaction to circumstances. Sometimes those circumstances can be in a persons head and counselling can help. Sometimes it can be due to a chemical imbalance and drugs can help. Sometimes a mixture of the two can help. But for some people the underlying problem is not addressable. Again an extreme example for the sake of arguement. A "well-adjusted" physically healthy person in a car crash, paralysed from the neck down. Some people could make the adjustment and live a happy life, but not all.

Agent J

I wouldnt be so quick to claim that Ireland has a low suicide rate compared to other countries. There was only an Article last week in the times about our "official" figures

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0908/1224254063423.html

Worth a read and worth consideration.

Kalashnikov_Kid

Jakkass wrote: »

Kalashnikov Kid: My point is more that if people are to actively support euthanasia, they are giving legitimacy to the point of view that suicide is okay, or an acceptable way to deal with life's problems.

Point taken, and I wholeheartedly agree with the above.

Tigger

many singole vehicle single occupant deaths are suicide but are never reported as such long roads witha wall where y'd hve to be stupid or desperate to crash

when you see a wall and wonder how did a car crash there you'll see what i mean

Darlughda

I totally agree with you Almighty Cushion, with all of your previous post.

I was just stating a fact that many people who use Boards.ie may also be working in a voluntary capacity, anonymously, as'highly trained' samaritans in their spare time.

It would be great if there was a place where it...suicide could be discussed with sensitive and aware moderation.

lostexpectation

Suicide can be a blessed relief no just for the individual but those surrounding him or her

who said this op?

it should be acknowledged and not hid under the carpet by the family

nacho libre

irish_bob wrote: »

weak people never commit suicide , only strong people

really?

what about the guy who kill himself rather than accepting responsibility for his crimes and facing the consequences?

also, considering your right wing views, which of these people would you admire more:

the person upon their business crashing and burning due to the recession, despite being in very low spirits, avowing to start anew and doing so

or

the person upon their business failing decides to kills themselves - but does so in a road crash so as to avoid the stigma of comitting suicide.

Sharpshooter

nacho libre wrote: »

really?

what about the guy who kill himself rather than accepting responsibility for his crimes and facing the consequences?

also, considering your right wing views, which of these people would you admire more:

the person upon their business crashing and burning due to the recession, despite being in very low spirits, avowing to start anew and doing so

or

the person upon their business failing decides to kills themselves - but does so in a road crash so as to avoid the stigma of comitting suicide.

Once again, irish_bob has been banned and it was posted on thread.

Please do not quote him as he cannot answer you.

whatdoicare

Suicide is very hard to gauge in each and every individual- even in families!
In my experience, my mom lets everyone know her emotional state and binge drinks regularly too, locking herself into her room for days! - Everyone in my immediate family knows when she is upset and know to watch her carefully and walk on eggshells. She is also very religious and believes in Angels and such- these things seem to give her little or no comfort in my opinion and she has been through all the therapies you can get. She also partakes in elaborate showman style suicide attempts (like gassing the house but being clever enough to turn off the mains first)

Also, take into account myself- I'm quiet but laugh alot and am always cracking jokes with a very optimistic attitude, people (including my mom) often come to me with problems and I offer an ear willingly but and this is a big but, there was a time between my last year in college and finally leaving the country three years later when I was very very depressed(more than likely from being my moms "emotional carer" and being very alone in college. I don't think I really realised how depressed I was at that time -although it is obvious to me now)
I secretly cut myself, became bulimic, rarely slept and cried on my own nearly every night and very seriously contemplated killing myself on at least twenty occassions. I'm not religious, I never received medical help, noone knew I was depressed or that I was doing all these things- I remember trying to tell close friends about my feelings but they really didn't understand what I was talking about and changed the subject.

It was my dad who accidently saved me- he bought me a ticket for a holiday to visit a friend in Italy as a birthday present. I ended up living there for a year!:eek: Every day I was out of the situation I got better- I was in a whole different way of life and thinking. Noone lets you just sit there- you must get up and do something- walk, skate, swim, sing, draw - anything!! I also noticed alcohol is very rarely used as a pick me up there- I don't know if the Irish way of drinking has anything to do with how we deal with depression here but I have a feeling it has...

Now I have a healthy attitude to life- I actually go out of my way to meet someone for lunch nearly everyday, I exercise most days too- I have a feeling this has been a big factor in my prolonged recovery. On the other hand, nearly ten years on- my mom is still exactly the same (like as if she's stuck in a time bubble) and is steadily getting worse. I know now that there's nothing I can do for her- she has to want it herself. (when professionals told us this years ago - I thought they were mad! but I now know it's 100% true.) She doesn't want help (as crazy as it sounds)

So anyway the point I was going to make relating to the thread- talking about it doesn't necessarily help things- in my experience it seems to keep things going round in circles- the fix seems to be let it all out once, cry yourself silly, scream, get angry, rest and then get up and live! Dwelling on your feelings too much makes things worse sometimes. The hardest thing to do and the healthiest thing is to move on and get up and go!


Well, anyway, thats my experience of it all- sorry for the essay :rolleyes:

lostexpectation

maybe the boxing mods should read and repsond to this tread

nlgbbbblth

There is little or no suicide in Ireland.

Lots of

"died tragically"

"tragic accidents"

"tragic circumstances"

"Gardai not looking for anyone else in connection with X's death"

but very little suicide. :rolleyes:

Not reporting suicides only serves to sweep the problem under the carpet.
No wonder we have a suicide problem in this country when people won't face up to facts.

On one hand we have the media bemoaning increasing suicide numbers and complaining about people have their heads in the sand about it while simultaneously refusing to tackle the practical issue head on and print the actual facts when it comes to reporting one. This double standard filters downwards to ordinary citizens who will speak in hushed tones about the deceased and rarely mention the why and how of his/her death.

My personal experience in this regard stems from when my a member of my family committed suicide in the 1980s. At no stage throughout the years did anybody admit that he took his own life and it was only much later that I accidentally discovered the truth.

In summary: all suicides should be reported as suicides. No exceptions.

IvyTheTerrible

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

My personal experience in this regard stems from when my a member of my family committed suicide in the 1980s. At no stage throughout the years did anybody admit that he took his own life and it was only much later that I accidentally discovered the truth.

In summary: all suicides should be reported as suicides. No exceptions.

I totally agree with you.

It's extremely difficult to deal with the death of a loved one, particularly by suicide. But, in my experience, it's made somewhat easier when the cause of death is acknowledged. There is no shame and you can talk openly then about the loved one, which is so important.