Funerals and dying...

MetalDawg · 14-09-2009 11:12AM

My ideal funeral: have it in a marquee outside, No religion obviously, just everyone says a few words. Then cremated to the sound of Comfortably Numb by Pink Floyd (the live version off PULSE) then everyone back to mine and drink a f**ckload of beer.

Gregor Samsa · 14-09-2009 02:03PM

candy-gal1 wrote: »

the thought of being eaten by rats, worms, etc is just too horrible to think about.

The Cynic philosopher Diognes of Sinope requested that his body be left outside the city walls for animals to feast on. When asked if he minded that his body would be ravaged by animals, he said "Not at all, as long as you provide me with a stick to chase the creatures away!". When then questioned about how he would use the stick if he was dead, and therefore unaware, he said "If I lack awareness, then why should I care what happens to me when I am dead?"

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Maybe I am wrong about the organs, but you are certainly pumped with chemicals and covered in makeup

That happens if you're going to be cremated too. They still dress the corpse up for the removal, which is usually the day before the funeral (and cremation/burial). I'm sure it could be requested that it not be done (and no open casket) if you wanted.

I was talking to someone from the Irish Humanist Association a few months ago. He has conducted lots of secular funerals. Basically, he said that one of the places they do them is the cremation 'chapel' in Glasnevin cemetery, as it's not a church and can be used by anyone, yet it's dignified and set up for the purpose. He also told me about one he did in a hotel in Monaghan or somewhere - although most hotels aren't too keen on having a corpse lying around their function room.

Most graveyards are council property, so anyone can be buried in them (assuming there's room).

robindch · 14-09-2009 02:17PM

phutyle wrote: »

Most graveyards are council property, so anyone can be buried in them (assuming there's room).

If anybody's from Donegal and harboring doubts about the Great Bearded Wonder Beyond The Clouds, then keep them to yourself:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/foyle_and_west/7588035.stm

kiffer · 14-09-2009 02:27PM

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Im not against embalming, more the idea that organ donation is interfering with the deceased or undesireable in some way when standard embalming is interferance anyway.

Why do we embalm our dead anyway?
How long does modern embalming preserve the body for? Why bother stopping it rotting anyway? Is embalming fluid toxic/bad for the soil? Is an un-embalmed body less bad for the soil/plants?

If one is laid to rest 6 feet under and a sapling is planted on top of you does the tree actually get any bonus out of your decaying body (or do you poison the soil?) or would it only help if you where properly composted first...

Stercus Accidit · 14-09-2009 02:28PM

robindch wrote: »

If anybody's from Donegal and harboring doubts about the Great Bearded Wonder Beyond The Clouds, then keep them to yourself:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/foyle_and_west/7588035.stm

Copy paste for us mobile boards athiests?

pts · 14-09-2009 02:40PM

Malty_T wrote: »

I want to be sent into a black hole:cool:
For 'science' of course

Might sound like fun and games, until someone explains the science of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1iJXOUMJpg

I think the technical term is "spaghettification". Of course if you're dead then you probably don't mind the excruciating pain

Dades · 14-09-2009 02:55PM

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Copy paste for us mobile boards athiests?

No atheist burials in Co Donegal

Mr Greenslade's mother had to be buried in a cemetery in Derry

A Donegal atheist had to be buried in Londonderry because the county has no facilities for non-religious burials.

Journalist Roy Greenslade's mother was buried in Ballyowen cemetery in Derry on Tuesday after a humanist service.

He said he was told atheists could not be buried in Donegal because the graveyards are church-owned.

"Therefore unless one is willing to compromise one's beliefs by agreeing to a religious service, it is impossible to be buried," he said.

"There is a degree of black comedy about this, and my mother, who had a fantastic sense of humour, would certainly have laughed.

"When I rang up and asked Derry City Council's cemeteries department if it was possible to bury an atheist in a municipal cemetery they said it was possible because there were different sections for Catholics, Protestants and Muslims.

"My wife asked if it meant they were going to start an atheist section and the woman said, 'oh no, she can go in with the Protestants'."

A spokesperson from Donegal County Council said it is only responsible for old and unused graveyards.

Oh, and get an iPhone!

Jim · 14-09-2009 03:03PM

My grandfather died two years ago and being an (almost fanatical) atheist he didn't want religion playing any part in his funeral. The service was held in the cremetorium of Glasnevin cemetary. My uncle conducted the service, his children and friends went up and gave readings about him and inbetween the readings we sat and listened to some of his favourite music. I wont go into too much detail about how I felt but I have to say it was probably the happiest I've ever been at a funeral. He was then cremated and his ashes scattered in Spain.

Even if you are religious I can't imagine having a funeral any other way than the above. A preist's words are supposed to comfort (and for alot of people they do), but nowadays how many preists actually know anything about the deceased? My grandfather's funeral was so much more personal than one conducted by a preist and having religious readings etc could ever be.

Anyway, in the end we managed to avoid almost all aspects of it being a religious funeral, except that in the funeral home in his open coffin he was covered with a veil that had a cross embroidered on it. Noone minded that so much, but I thought it was funny that its almost impossible to get away from religion in this country.

kiffer · 14-09-2009 03:51PM

Dades wrote: »

Oh, and get an iPhone!

I had no trouble reading it on my n95... if you can use boards on your phone you can use most websites unless they are crazy flash/muck sites

Turtwig · 14-09-2009 03:52PM

pts wrote: »

Might sound like fun and games, until someone explains the science of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1iJXOUMJpg

I think the technical term is "spaghettification". Of course if you're dead then you probably don't mind the excruciating pain

I am dead, and by being dead I am no longer in existence so, yes, spaghettification would not bother me.
The reason why I chose the black hole was because it would take an infinite amount of time (relative to the observer on Earth) for my body to pass through the event horizon, or even decay!

Hence by that logic I would be Immortal:p.

Also as the black hole may actually be the start of a new universe my matter would go towards the creation of new life - Therefore I am both immortal and a creator : God!! (Just not all that loving or caring and most definitely dead)

Húrin · 14-09-2009 04:24PM

Zillah wrote: »

From an emotional point of view, I would like for my entire body to be instantly vaporised upon death. Ideally sitting on top of a nuclear weapon, that sort of thing.

NothingMan · 14-09-2009 04:42PM

I keep on telling my friends and family I want to be stuffed and mounted, but have yet to find anyone willing to put me above their fireplace.

Stercus Accidit · 14-09-2009 06:07PM

kiffer wrote: »

I had no trouble reading it on my n95... if you can use boards on your phone you can use most websites unless they are crazy flash/muck sites

I regret the LG viewty on a daily basis

ballsymchugh · 14-09-2009 06:25PM

embalming is a pretty recent thing in ireland. and i mean that compared to other countries. it's pretty common in the uk where funerals usually take place about a week after the death, unless the dead are muslim and they have to be buried the next day before sunset, so it's used to preserve the body
so it can probably be argued that embalming is an easy buck for the undertaker. the only difference in appearance is that a non embalmed person is a light shade of purple (after a day when the coffin would be closed at a regular Christian funeral), and the embalmed are glowing orange.

Zillah · 14-09-2009 08:03PM

Húrin wrote: »

YAAAHOOOOOO!!!

Zillah · 14-09-2009 08:11PM

ballsymchugh wrote: »

embalming is a pretty recent thing in ireland. and i mean that compared to other countries. it's pretty common in the uk where funerals usually take place about a week after the death, unless the dead are muslim and they have to be buried the next day before sunset, so it's used to preserve the body
so it can probably be argued that embalming is an easy buck for the undertaker. the only difference in appearance is that a non embalmed person is a light shade of purple (after a day when the coffin would be closed at a regular Christian funeral), and the embalmed are glowing orange.

Seriously, embalming is grotesque, just throw me in a hole so nature can take its course asap.

drkpower · 14-09-2009 08:19PM

Zillah wrote: »

Seriously, embalming is grotesque, just throw me in a hole so nature can take its course asap.

Bloody 'ell, grotesque....?

Remember, embalming is, in most cases, the temporary preservation of human remains specifically to delay decomposition in order to make the deceased suitable for display at a funeral. How can that it be grotesque to allow a family to see their family member somewhat as they remember them one last time......

Turtwig · 14-09-2009 08:26PM

I guess there are two schools of thought here:

One is that embalming takes somewhat away from the reality of death.
The other is that embalming allows the family to see their loved one as they remembered them. (Assuming they weren't mutilated in car crash or something, trust me I've seen this once and it's awful! There's a sign saying 'Do Not Touch the Corpse beside the casket!)

Personally, I have no gripe against embalming, I just think that the funeral process is two dragged out for the sake of the mourners health. Having said that if, as my parents once told me is true, we've come along way since the days of mourning a loss of a loved for an entire year while avoiding the mainstream public.

drkpower · 14-09-2009 08:38PM

Malty_T wrote: »

One is that embalming takes somewhat away from the reality of death.

I dont see how this is a factor. Im sure that every bereaved is 100% aware of the reality of death whether their loved one looks gaunt and grey or slightly less so.

The reality of death is right there, front and centre, when someone dies.

ChocolateSauce · 14-09-2009 08:43PM

drkpower wrote: »

The reality of death is right there, front and centre, when someone dies.

It seems to me that many people are only aware of the fantasy of death, and require some kind of hocus pocus to supposedly make these fantasies come true.

Zillah · 15-09-2009 02:11AM

drkpower wrote: »

Bloody 'ell, grotesque....?

Remember, embalming is, in most cases, the temporary preservation of human remains specifically to delay decomposition in order to make the deceased suitable for display at a funeral. How can that it be grotesque to allow a family to see their family member somewhat as they remember them one last time......

Because it is a false mockery of life. Layering them in industrial strength makeup, filling their veins with embalming fluid, stapling the lips shut, gluing or tacking the eyes closed...it is grotesque. It is an illusion, and you know how I feel about illusions. It is only comforting if you're ignorant of the reality.

ballsymchugh · 15-09-2009 02:33AM

Zillah wrote: »

Because it is a false mockery of life. Layering them in industrial strength makeup, filling their veins with embalming fluid, stapling the lips shut, gluing or tacking the eyes closed...it is grotesque. It is an illusion, and you know how I feel about illusions. It is only comforting if you're ignorant of the reality.

stapling the lips shut?? gluing the eyes closed?? hmmm you've obvious;y never been too close to an embalmed corpse. rigor mortis will make sure the mouth stays shut, and the eyelids.. well.. have you ever seen them spring back open when they're shut even in the worst tv shows or movies?? once they're shut, then that's it.

kiffer · 15-09-2009 03:03AM

ballsymchugh wrote: »

stapling the lips shut?? gluing the eyes closed?? hmmm you've obvious;y never been too close to an embalmed corpse. rigor mortis will make sure the mouth stays shut, and the eyelids.. well.. have you ever seen them spring back open when they're shut even in the worst tv shows or movies?? once they're shut, then that's it.

really? hum... after the initial rigor mortis period doesn't the stiffness leave the body as it starts to rot?
hmmm... are you actually suggesting that we turn to TV for our information on this?

EDIT: check out the wiki article on Embalming...

Wikipedia wrote:

The eyes are posed using an eye cap that keeps them shut and in the proper expression. The mouth may be closed via suturing with a needle and ligature, using an adhesive, or by setting a wire into the maxilla and mandible with a needle injector, a specialized device most commonly utilized in North America and unique to mortuary practice.

Zillah · 15-09-2009 04:02AM

ballsymchugh wrote: »

stapling the lips shut?? gluing the eyes closed?? hmmm you've obvious;y never been too close to an embalmed corpse. rigor mortis will make sure the mouth stays shut, and the eyelids.. well.. have you ever seen them spring back open when they're shut even in the worst tv shows or movies?? once they're shut, then that's it.

You don't actually know anything about embalming, do you?

People such as yourself seem to have a very clean notion of what death is. Like falling asleep but permanent.

I'm going to get graphic now, you have been warned.

Rigor mortis generally only lasts a few hours, after that the body goes limp again. The mouth can fall open, the tongue swells and becomes distended, the eyes sink into the head, the eye-lids can fall open or closed. The face loses much of its shape due to slackening of muscle and relaxing of blood vessels. Gasses from decay begin to fill the internal cavities and can seep out either end, sounding variously like sighing, groaning or other more vulgar bodily functions. Blood pools on the underside and forms deep bruising, corpses have even been known to have erections.

So there you have it. Embalming is designed to make it appear as if the corpse is still alive, but it is just a dolled up corpse. I don't think that sounds very dignified.

I should note that I of course have no problem with a body being embalmed for technical reasons, such as being shipped overseas for a funeral or something like that. I suppose I don't even mind it being done so the family can have a illusion of life, I just personally find it creepy as hell.

I like the Muslim way of doing it. You get twenty four hours then the body is buried in a cloth wrapping. Dignified, practical, rational.

ballsymchugh · 15-09-2009 02:12PM

Zillah wrote: »

You don't actually know anything about embalming, do you?

People such as yourself seem to have a very clean notion of what death is. Like falling asleep but permanent.

I'm going to get graphic now, you have been warned.

Rigor mortis generally only lasts a few hours, after that the body goes limp again. The mouth can fall open, the tongue swells and becomes distended, the eyes sink into the head, the eye-lids can fall open or closed. The face loses much of its shape due to slackening of muscle and relaxing of blood vessels. Gasses from decay begin to fill the internal cavities and can seep out either end, sounding variously like sighing, groaning or other more vulgar bodily functions. Blood pools on the underside and forms deep bruising, corpses have even been known to have erections.

So there you have it. Embalming is designed to make it appear as if the corpse is still alive, but it is just a dolled up corpse. I don't think that sounds very dignified.

I should note that I of course have no problem with a body being embalmed for technical reasons, such as being shipped overseas for a funeral or something like that. I suppose I don't even mind it being done so the family can have a illusion of life, I just personally find it creepy as hell.

I like the Muslim way of doing it. You get twenty four hours then the body is buried in a cloth wrapping. Dignified, practical, rational.

i was basing my knowledge on holding the mouth of a dead relative closed shortly after death. i did it so because the pillow that they used wasn't great. i have heard the groaning while the corpse was laid out, which is kinda frightening. but i've done enough pathology exams to know what was going on.
i agree with you about one part of the muslim death, the burial in cloth wrapping. one thing i will never understand is the caskets that are used. they're just being used to make a statement about how much money or how important the person thought they were. the funeral of that collopy dude in limerick being point and case.

but like i said in a previous post, i feel that embalming is now a way for undertakers to squeeze an extra buck out of people at a very emotional time. while muslims are strict on how soon the burial should take place, influences from GB or USA where the funeral takes place many days after the death are creeping in here.

Coriolanus · 15-09-2009 07:36PM

Well, if they're burying me that quick, they better make sure to chuck a mobile in with me.

drkpower · 15-09-2009 10:01PM

Zillah wrote: »

Because it is a false mockery of life. Layering them in industrial strength makeup, filling their veins with embalming fluid, stapling the lips shut, gluing or tacking the eyes closed...it is grotesque. It is an illusion, and you know how I feel about illusions. It is only comforting if you're ignorant of the reality.

Zillah wrote: »

I should note that I of course have no problem with a body being embalmed for technical reasons, such as being shipped overseas for a funeral or something like that. I suppose I don't even mind it being done so the family can have a illusion of life, I just personally find it creepy as hell..

How's the schizophrenia treating you there, Zillah!

In fairness, I was under the impression that embalming was done only where a funeral is being delayed for relatively good reasons (ie family members abroad etc.) rather than a matter of course. Most funerals still take place with 48-72 hours in this country, dont they?

CerebralCortex · 15-09-2009 11:03PM

drkpower wrote: »

How's the schizophrenia treating you there, Zillah!

Zillah · 16-09-2009 04:28AM

drkpower wrote: »

How's the schizophrenia treating you there, Zillah!

I presume you're implying multiple personality disorder rather than schizophrenia. Which is still weird because there is nothing contradictory about my two above statements. Its creepy and weird and horrible but I accept that it is neccessary in some circumstances.

In fairness, I was under the impression that embalming was done only where a funeral is being delayed for relatively good reasons (ie family members abroad etc.) rather than a matter of course. Most funerals still take place with 48-72 hours in this country, dont they?

Its far more common than that. As for 72 hours, I don't think most bodies would be anything approaching presentable after four days.

drkpower · 16-09-2009 08:31AM

Zillah wrote: »

I presume you're implying multiple personality disorder rather than schizophrenia. Which is still weird because there is nothing contradictory about my two above statements. Its creepy and weird and horrible but I accept that it is neccessary in some circumstances..

That too; but I was more thinking about the disorganization of thought and speech that can occur with schizophrenia. In any case, I was only kidding with you, trying to point out the possible distinction between your view that it was on the one hand grotesque, a false mockery of life and a delusion while stating that you have no problem with it.

In any case, I have been gently warned to avoid the use of such sensitive terms as schizoiphrenia, so I'll refrain from doing so.

.

Funerals and dying...

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