Funerals and dying...

Zillah

drkpower wrote: »

Bloody 'ell, grotesque....?

Remember, embalming is, in most cases, the temporary preservation of human remains specifically to delay decomposition in order to make the deceased suitable for display at a funeral. How can that it be grotesque to allow a family to see their family member somewhat as they remember them one last time......

Because it is a false mockery of life. Layering them in industrial strength makeup, filling their veins with embalming fluid, stapling the lips shut, gluing or tacking the eyes closed...it is grotesque. It is an illusion, and you know how I feel about illusions. It is only comforting if you're ignorant of the reality.

ballsymchugh

Zillah wrote: »

Because it is a false mockery of life. Layering them in industrial strength makeup, filling their veins with embalming fluid, stapling the lips shut, gluing or tacking the eyes closed...it is grotesque. It is an illusion, and you know how I feel about illusions. It is only comforting if you're ignorant of the reality.

stapling the lips shut?? gluing the eyes closed?? hmmm you've obvious;y never been too close to an embalmed corpse. rigor mortis will make sure the mouth stays shut, and the eyelids.. well.. have you ever seen them spring back open when they're shut even in the worst tv shows or movies?? once they're shut, then that's it.

kiffer

ballsymchugh wrote: »

stapling the lips shut?? gluing the eyes closed?? hmmm you've obvious;y never been too close to an embalmed corpse. rigor mortis will make sure the mouth stays shut, and the eyelids.. well.. have you ever seen them spring back open when they're shut even in the worst tv shows or movies?? once they're shut, then that's it.

really? hum... after the initial rigor mortis period doesn't the stiffness leave the body as it starts to rot?
hmmm... are you actually suggesting that we turn to TV for our information on this?



EDIT: check out the wiki article on Embalming...

Wikipedia wrote:

The eyes are posed using an eye cap that keeps them shut and in the proper expression. The mouth may be closed via suturing with a needle and ligature, using an adhesive, or by setting a wire into the maxilla and mandible with a needle injector, a specialized device most commonly utilized in North America and unique to mortuary practice.

Zillah

ballsymchugh wrote: »

stapling the lips shut?? gluing the eyes closed?? hmmm you've obvious;y never been too close to an embalmed corpse. rigor mortis will make sure the mouth stays shut, and the eyelids.. well.. have you ever seen them spring back open when they're shut even in the worst tv shows or movies?? once they're shut, then that's it.

You don't actually know anything about embalming, do you?

People such as yourself seem to have a very clean notion of what death is. Like falling asleep but permanent.

I'm going to get graphic now, you have been warned.

Rigor mortis generally only lasts a few hours, after that the body goes limp again. The mouth can fall open, the tongue swells and becomes distended, the eyes sink into the head, the eye-lids can fall open or closed. The face loses much of its shape due to slackening of muscle and relaxing of blood vessels. Gasses from decay begin to fill the internal cavities and can seep out either end, sounding variously like sighing, groaning or other more vulgar bodily functions. Blood pools on the underside and forms deep bruising, corpses have even been known to have erections.

So there you have it. Embalming is designed to make it appear as if the corpse is still alive, but it is just a dolled up corpse. I don't think that sounds very dignified.

I should note that I of course have no problem with a body being embalmed for technical reasons, such as being shipped overseas for a funeral or something like that. I suppose I don't even mind it being done so the family can have a illusion of life, I just personally find it creepy as hell.

I like the Muslim way of doing it. You get twenty four hours then the body is buried in a cloth wrapping. Dignified, practical, rational.

ballsymchugh

Zillah wrote: »

You don't actually know anything about embalming, do you?

People such as yourself seem to have a very clean notion of what death is. Like falling asleep but permanent.

I'm going to get graphic now, you have been warned.

Rigor mortis generally only lasts a few hours, after that the body goes limp again. The mouth can fall open, the tongue swells and becomes distended, the eyes sink into the head, the eye-lids can fall open or closed. The face loses much of its shape due to slackening of muscle and relaxing of blood vessels. Gasses from decay begin to fill the internal cavities and can seep out either end, sounding variously like sighing, groaning or other more vulgar bodily functions. Blood pools on the underside and forms deep bruising, corpses have even been known to have erections.

So there you have it. Embalming is designed to make it appear as if the corpse is still alive, but it is just a dolled up corpse. I don't think that sounds very dignified.

I should note that I of course have no problem with a body being embalmed for technical reasons, such as being shipped overseas for a funeral or something like that. I suppose I don't even mind it being done so the family can have a illusion of life, I just personally find it creepy as hell.

I like the Muslim way of doing it. You get twenty four hours then the body is buried in a cloth wrapping. Dignified, practical, rational.

i was basing my knowledge on holding the mouth of a dead relative closed shortly after death. i did it so because the pillow that they used wasn't great. i have heard the groaning while the corpse was laid out, which is kinda frightening. but i've done enough pathology exams to know what was going on.
i agree with you about one part of the muslim death, the burial in cloth wrapping. one thing i will never understand is the caskets that are used. they're just being used to make a statement about how much money or how important the person thought they were. the funeral of that collopy dude in limerick being point and case.

but like i said in a previous post, i feel that embalming is now a way for undertakers to squeeze an extra buck out of people at a very emotional time. while muslims are strict on how soon the burial should take place, influences from GB or USA where the funeral takes place many days after the death are creeping in here.

Coriolanus

Well, if they're burying me that quick, they better make sure to chuck a mobile in with me.

drkpower

Zillah wrote: »

Because it is a false mockery of life. Layering them in industrial strength makeup, filling their veins with embalming fluid, stapling the lips shut, gluing or tacking the eyes closed...it is grotesque. It is an illusion, and you know how I feel about illusions. It is only comforting if you're ignorant of the reality.

Zillah wrote: »

I should note that I of course have no problem with a body being embalmed for technical reasons, such as being shipped overseas for a funeral or something like that. I suppose I don't even mind it being done so the family can have a illusion of life, I just personally find it creepy as hell..

How's the schizophrenia treating you there, Zillah!

In fairness, I was under the impression that embalming was done only where a funeral is being delayed for relatively good reasons (ie family members abroad etc.) rather than a matter of course. Most funerals still take place with 48-72 hours in this country, dont they?

CerebralCortex

drkpower wrote: »

How's the schizophrenia treating you there, Zillah!

Zillah

drkpower wrote: »

How's the schizophrenia treating you there, Zillah!

I presume you're implying multiple personality disorder rather than schizophrenia. Which is still weird because there is nothing contradictory about my two above statements. Its creepy and weird and horrible but I accept that it is neccessary in some circumstances.

In fairness, I was under the impression that embalming was done only where a funeral is being delayed for relatively good reasons (ie family members abroad etc.) rather than a matter of course. Most funerals still take place with 48-72 hours in this country, dont they?

Its far more common than that. As for 72 hours, I don't think most bodies would be anything approaching presentable after four days.

drkpower

Zillah wrote: »

I presume you're implying multiple personality disorder rather than schizophrenia. Which is still weird because there is nothing contradictory about my two above statements. Its creepy and weird and horrible but I accept that it is neccessary in some circumstances..

That too; but I was more thinking about the disorganization of thought and speech that can occur with schizophrenia. In any case, I was only kidding with you, trying to point out the possible distinction between your view that it was on the one hand grotesque, a false mockery of life and a delusion while stating that you have no problem with it.

In any case, I have been gently warned to avoid the use of such sensitive terms as schizoiphrenia, so I'll refrain from doing so.

.

the_syco

Meh. Give donate useful internal organs to people. People, not scientific expermentation. Then float me on a burning boat out to sea, like the vikings. Also, have a depth charge or 3 under the desk, so when the boat sinks, everything goes pop, and my remains are scattered around; I don't want some f**king historian poking around with my bones.

Zillah

drkpower wrote: »

In any case, I have been gently warned to avoid the use of such sensitive terms as schizoiphrenia, so I'll refrain from doing so.

I wonder if I could get an exemption put in the charter. "You may not insult other posters, except Zillah, he likes a good fight."

Mark Hamill

When I die I want to be the equivilant of a sports car left unlocked in the inner city- up on blocks, every thing from the radio to the loose change under the seat taken within fifteen minutes. As for the left overs? Ah put me in dog food if you like, what do I care I'll be dead.
My brother said essentially the same thing (didn't specify dog food though) but he said he would like it if his kids could at least see the people who get his organs, so they can see some good that comes from his death, which I think is nice.

Goduznt Xzst

What happens after I die is of little concern to me. I'll leave it in the hands of those that love me, because, in reality, the whole funeral is for them and not me, so they might as well have the funeral that they want me to have.

On a related note, I'd be interested to hear about how much the Atheists here think about death, and has the amount of thought they put into it increased since becoming an Atheist (it probably naturally increases with age anyway)

Personally, I think about it a lot more, not really death itself but dying. At least once I day I contemplate death, living, my memories of that day that, are in effect, dying (in that in a few days I will have forgotten what happened in work that day, what I ate for lunch... etc, every day parts of life die out of being forgotten).

I think what bothers me more is looking at those I love and knowing they will die. Thankfully I still have both of my parents but I know if I live to an average age I will have to bury both of them. Also, it is of note that I do not get emotional about this or depressed, it is just a fact of existence.

If anything it makes me a better person around those I care about. I treat every minute with my parents like its my last, because it may very well be. I can honestly say since becoming an Atheist my relationships with people that are important to me is a lot stronger. I think the carrot on a stick of eternal existence gives you too much comfort. I know previously the feeling of being with my family for eternity led to a nonchalance around them. Now, when I have to say goodbye to these people, I say it like I would if I knew I was leaving for a year, even if I know I will see them tomorrow.

Death to me, is like any planned event or holiday I have coming up on the horizon. It will happen. Those that think of it morbidly or try to ignore it are not doing themselves any favors. None of us get out alive. I think a healthy acknowledgement of human existence and it's cycle leads one to have a much more productive life with the means at their disposal now.

Turtwig

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Death to me, is like any planned event or holiday I have coming up on the horizon. It will happen. Those that think of it morbidly or try to ignore it are not doing themselves any favors. None of us get out alive. I think a healthy acknowledgement of human existence and it's cycle leads one to have a much more productive life with the means at their disposal now.

You'd definitely be the ideal soldier then:)

komodosp

Don't really care what happens to me anyway, as Goduznt said a funeral is for the mourners not the person who died. If it makes them feel better to have a religious funeral and think I'm gone to heaven and looking down on them, then let them go ahead.

The great thing about being an Atheist is you don't have to care about people respecting your "beliefs" - the same reason I'd be perfectly willing to have a religious wedding or have my children christened if it would ease family relations. So some ould fella is going to say a few words and pour water on the kids head. Doesn't bother me...

I suppose the best thing would be to have my organs harvested for transplantation and whatever is left put into medical research. Anything else can be donated to a starving family or something.

The one thing I will say about funerals - (I have only ever been to one, BTW) - I know they are depressing and go on for a long time, but the procedural and respectful nature of it does give a certain sense of closure to the loved ones, (especially if they are believers).