Time for a new campaign " She drives (into pothole) , He fixes puncture"

GTE · 26-08-2009 11:17AM

steve06 wrote: »

So you expect the NCT centre or service centre to call insurance companies to ask if mods are declared? Sure, that'll work! :rolleyes: And you're obsessed with remaps for some reason....
Remaps are just an example, chipping is another example

You're the one missing the point, it's lack of driver education that's dangerous, not car modifications!
I am not disputing that, but do you dispute that lack of driver education plus BHP increasing mods are a bad mix?

All modifications I have, are declared with my insurance company, I pay an extra premium for them!
Im not disputing that, dont take this as personal attack on your credibility my friend

Actually at this point Im not going to bother reply to this here, if you wish to PM me I will entertain it for a while.
You are getting defensive for no reason, I have not nor did I intend to attack your credibility and since you seem to think I am I'm not going to bother fighting it as I never once attacked you in this.

Good day to you.

Marlow · 26-08-2009 11:30AM

bbk wrote: »

Actually at this point Im not going to bother reply to this here, if you wish to PM me I will entertain it for a while.
You are getting defensive for no reason, I have not nor did I intend to attack your credibility and since you seem to think I am I'm not going to bother fighting it as I never once attacked you in this.

The issue is, that your approach doesn't fix the issue either, because if your "proposal" was the route taken a lot of others would be hit, that have nothing to do with boy racers.

People that get a dodgy remap won't have their car for long, because the engine will die.

Aftermarket exchausts aren't bad, it's the custom mods that yer boy racer does to it, that is and those will be caught. The issue there is, that the gardai need a proper tool to measure sound. Right now, the way it is, is that the garda stands behind your car and let you rev it up, then based on his hearing and opinion decides, if it's excessive loud. Doesn't matter if it's factory/manufacturer fit or not. Just matters if he thinks you are a boy racer.

I get stopped once in a while in a checkpoint, just because I have a hugely large amateur-radio antenna on the boot. Antenna doesn't make me a boy racer though.

The issue is, that there is no easy way out, the RSA will have to tackle the real problems and not come up with rubbish ad's and it doesn't seem to happen, because they have no clue.

/M

smash · 26-08-2009 11:35AM

I'm not saying you're attacking my credibility, it's just that all the things you and the RSA have a problem with, aren't the actual problem. The problem is the lack of driver education and that's what should be tackled, not car modifications.

You want to implement new laws to stop people modifying their cars - what needs to be done and is a lot easier it to introduce a new licence system which should in my opinion be brought in as part of the schooling system to educate people about cars and how to drive in different conditions and situations. This should apply to all drivers, not just young men!

GTE · 26-08-2009 11:39AM

Marlow wrote: »

The issue is, that your approach doesn't fix the issue either, because if your "proposal" was the route taken a lot of others would be hit, that have nothing to do with boy racers.

People that get a dodgy remap won't have their car for long, because the engine will die.

Aftermarket exchausts aren't bad, it's the custom mods that yer boy racer does to it, that is and those will be caught. The issue there is, that the gardai need a proper tool to measure sound. Right now, the way it is, is that the garda stands behind your car and let you rev it up, then based on his hearing and opinion decides, if it's excessive loud. Doesn't matter if it's factory/manufacturer fit or not. Just matters if he thinks you are a boy racer.

I get stopped once in a while in a checkpoint, just because I have a hugely large amateur-radio antenna on the boot. Antenna doesn't make me a boy racer though.

The issue is, that there is no easy way out, the RSA will have to tackle the real problems and not come up with rubbish ad's and it doesn't seem to happen, because they have no clue.

/M

I accept what you are saying, I can see the logic in what you say however would a stricter NCT not cut down on these adapted exhausts, remaps, chips and other power increasing mods. Granted yes a car will die if its modified badly but if someone gets a good chip, a good remap or the such from a source and they dont declare it. Then the incentive is there for the younger folk to do the same thing, it sure would for me and it does happen. What my idea would do is get rid of this incentive for younger folk to get these modifications as by getting them they would have to go the fully autorised route like most but then automatically have it declared and incur the insurance premiums they would have hoped to avoid with non disclosure. Again, just incase you flip out im not imply you dont disclose information like that.

GTE · 26-08-2009 11:46AM

steve06 wrote: »

I'm not saying you're attacking my credibility, it's just that all the things you and the RSA have a problem with, aren't the actual problem. The problem is the lack of driver education and that's what should be tackled, not car modifications.

You want to implement new laws to stop people modifying their cars - what needs to be done and is a lot easier it to introduce a new licence system which should in my opinion be brought in as part of the schooling system to educate people about cars and how to drive in different conditions and situations. This should apply to all drivers, not just young men!

I agree with you there, the driving education should be brought into the schooling system! Absolutely. However in conjunction with that if a law was introduced to have all mods declared like they should coupled with the proper education then that would be a great alternative to what we have now.

There will still be that instinct or whatever you want to call it by some teenagers that will end up doing the same thing as now even with the education. What my idea is about would be a backup to the education reform or a first wave of reform before the education can be organised. With the way the education system is now introducing new subjects will take away from others and debate and organisation which will all take time will be needed before the education worth implementing can be implemented.
An example in my school was SPHE and CSPE. They were introduced as compulsory subjects but what happened in some schools was that with as many subjects as there are these days, (it happened in my school) subjects like Religion, PE, Irish, English had to be cut back to accommodate the new subjects. In different schools there were different solutions I imagine like longer days or something. At the very least reformed education and a form of my idea should be introduced as soon as its viable in my opinion.

This has moved off the main subject but to bring it back ANY and ALL laws and what not should be made across the board. All people under a certain age for example. No sexism.

smash · 26-08-2009 11:48AM

bbk wrote: »

I accept what you are saying, I can see the logic in what you say however would a stricter NCT not cut down on these adapted exhausts, remaps, chips and other power increasing mods. Granted yes a car will die if its modified badly but if someone gets a good chip, a good remap or the such from a source and they dont declare it. Then the incentive is there for the younger folk to do the same thing, it sure would for me and it does happen. What my idea would do is get rid of this incentive for younger folk to get these modifications as by getting them they would have to go the fully autorised route like most but then automatically have it declared and incur the insurance premiums they would have hoped to avoid with non disclosure. Again, just incase you flip out im not imply you dont disclose information like that.

You have to remember that increasing a car's power is not illegal and what you're suggesting is that all NCT centres have diagnostic equipment for all makes and models!

What if for example I bought a car, modified it, declared all modifications and then sold it to you. You bring it for NCT and they notice the mods, what do you do and what do they do? Do they call your insurer to see if you've declared them? Do you pay a hefty bill to standardise the car?

bbk wrote: »

However in conjunction with that if a law was introduced to have all mods declared like they should

but that IS a law, through insurance, you must declare all mods. If you don't you're not actually insured!

GTE · 26-08-2009 11:57AM

steve06 wrote: »

You have to remember that increasing a car's power is not illegal and what you're suggesting is that all NCT centres have diagnostic equipment for all makes and models!
Some form of making sure everything is ship shape at least, its the one time when every car can be checked to the same standard
What if for example I bought a car, modified it, declared all modifications and then sold it to you. You bring it for NCT and they notice the mods, what do you do and what do they do? Do they call your insurer to see if you've declared them? Do you pay a hefty bill to standardise the car?
The declared mods could be either logged in the log book or put onto a national database

but that IS a law, through insurance, you must declare all mods. If you don't you're not actually insured!

If you never have to make a claim however you will get away with a possibly cheaper premium then you should pay. Its a retarded thing to do but you cant say that it doesnt happen. People who declare everything they should fine, people who dont should be forced.

As regards to measuring dB from an exhaust Im surprised that equipment to measure the sound pressure level hasnt already been rolled out. Even the average laptop could do that.

smash · 26-08-2009 12:03PM

The NCT is there to make sure cars are safe on the roads. You can't say all modified cars aren't safe! If a car is badly modified and actually isn't safe then it wont pass an NCT anyway, if it's modified but is safe then it will pass an NCT and it's up to the driver to make sure that they drive it safely! Which again comes back to driver education.

Marlow · 26-08-2009 12:08PM

bbk wrote: »

As regards to measuring dB from an exhaust Im surprised that equipment to measure the sound pressure level hasnt already been rolled out. Even the average laptop could do that.

Well, then you clearly haven't been at a country-side garda station lately. All the garda in Kilchreest (Co. Galway) has to his disposal in his office (not even in his car) is a fax machine. He has to drive to Gort twice a week to enter his reports in the computer there. He also only got a cop-car 2 years ago (a Ford Fiesta). Before that he was driving his own banger.

How would you think, they'd start installing laptops in the cop-cars so ?

/M

GTE · 26-08-2009 12:15PM

steve06 wrote: »

The NCT is there to make sure cars are safe on the roads. You can't say all modified cars aren't safe! If a car is badly modified and actually isn't safe then it wont pass an NCT anyway, if it's modified but is safe then it will pass an NCT and it's up to the driver to make sure that they drive it safely! Which again comes back to driver education.

Its less about saying modified cars are unsafe but more about getting rid of this incentive for young folk to modify their cars, who then get it done by a means that they can not disclose to the people who should know.

Once a mod has been found that hasnt been declared properly then summet bad happens. Either a fine, notifying insurance companies and letting them do what they feel is appropriate.

Drivers education aside, I dont mind mods, but if the incentive to teenages like me is ruined then sure Ill be :mad: the world is against me but the roads will be safer.

Its better then trying to curfew a subset of the population when a smaller subset of that is actually causing the problem.

"awh, man I got this induction kit. I got some extra HP!!"
"did you declare it?"
"no, sure I wont crash, I know everything"
"but what about the NCT? if they find it they everyone will know about it"

Its that kinda thing im on about, induction kits dont do that much but the principle is there. I couldnt handle a car with extra power too much better with education, only with experience. Thats not saying education isnt important, it needs huge reform like you say.

NedTermo · 26-08-2009 12:19PM

pic.jpg

smash · 26-08-2009 12:23PM

bbk wrote: »

Drivers education aside, I dont mind mods, but if the incentive to teenages like me is ruined then sure Ill be :mad: the world is against me but the roads will be safer.

Because a car isn't modified, it wont automatically become safer on the road because there could still be an idiot behind the wheel... that's my point!

bbk wrote: »

I couldnt handle a car with extra power too much better with education, only with experience. Thats not saying education isnt important, it needs huge reform like you say.

Why not? If the speed limit it 50kph then you could drive a Micra or a Veyron, the speed limit is still 50kph and you're legally obliged to stick to it so power shouldn't come into the argument!

GTE · 26-08-2009 12:32PM

Marlow wrote: »

Well, then you clearly haven't been at a country-side garda station lately. All the garda in Kilchreest (Co. Galway) has to his disposal in his office (not even in his car) is a fax machine. He has to drive to Gort twice a week to enter his reports in the computer there. He also only got a cop-car 2 years ago (a Ford Fiesta). Before that he was driving his own banger.

How would you think, they'd start installing laptops in the cop-cars so ?

/M

Oh calm down Marlow.
Im not giving out to the front line, its the powers at be that hand out the €€€, even before the recession that should have copped on. That must be obvious, the front line I wouldnt think could go out and buy equipment, wouldnt it come from higher up in the chain?

http://www.thomann.de/ie/digital_sound_8928.htm
There, a cheap SPL meter, it does the freq range that matters for the most part. Deals can be done.

GTE · 26-08-2009 12:36PM

steve06 wrote: »

Because a car isn't modified, it wont automatically become safer on the road because there could still be an idiot behind the wheel... that's my point!
Thats my point too, if the idiot cant get a mod without all the trouble then at least the idiot wont be in a car that can do as much damage. Its about experience from a slow accelerating car for example to a quick one, it takes time..

Why not? If the speed limit it 50kph then you could drive a Micra or a Veyron, the speed limit is still 50kph and you're legally obliged to stick to it so power shouldn't come into the argument!

The way the car laws down the power before you get to 50kph is one obvious point to consider, it could run away with you before you reach any speed limit. A second obvious one is that even though we have speed limits they are broken constantly so you cant argue that point because we unfortunately dont live in an ideal world.

Marlow · 26-08-2009 12:44PM

bbk wrote: »

Oh calm down Marlow.
its the powers at be that hand out the €€€, even before the recession that should have copped on. That must be obvious, the front line I wouldnt think could go out and buy equipment, wouldnt it come from higher up in the chain?

Correct. The front line is left old fashioned methods (which are useless), without proper tools etc. and it's down to the gov to fix it, but they won't. And then they stick a bunch of incompetent f****** in the RSA, that run a campaign, that is way out of order, because it doesn't deal with the fact, it doesn't fix a thing and it doesn't make the roads safer. Neither would limiting the laws around modding, as the coppers still can't enforce it.

Fact is, this campaign is waste of tax money and it doesn't change a thing. Fact is also, that modding your car doesn't make it dangerous. Lack of education behind the wheel (regardless of mod or not) is dangerous.

I'm more afraid of a soccer suv mummy or an old farmer in his VW Jetta (on the roads that is), than I'm afraid of a boy racer.

/M

GTE · 26-08-2009 12:48PM

I know Im correct about that.
And again I say, modded cars are not dangerous, but modded cars with an idiot at the wheels is more dangerous then one at the wheel of a standard car. Education and something like thats would be a fantastic reform, education alone would need to be backed up by hard legislation.

Marlow · 26-08-2009 12:51PM

bbk wrote: »

education alone would need to be backed up by hard legislation.

Then put the legilation on the education required to drive the car in the first place, not on the modding.

Just see L-license changes a few years back. They were going to enforce you to have a full license to drive on your own etc., which was a serious good move and then backed out again (at least for people on current L-license), which utterly flawed things again.

An idiot at the wheel is dangerous (no more or less) behind the wheel of any car, regardless of mod or not, period. Less dangerous is still not helping the situation.

/M

Saab Ed · 26-08-2009 12:58PM

bbk wrote: »

And again I say, modded cars are not dangerous, but modded cars with an idiot at the wheels is more dangerous then one at the wheel of a standard car.

An idiot at the wheel of anything is dangerous. Lets not beat each other up, we're all on the same side here really.

GTE · 26-08-2009 01:01PM

Marlow wrote: »

Then put the legilation on the education required to drive the car in the first place, not on the modding.

Why? Does education mean everyone coming out of the system has the same level of competence?

An idiot at the wheel is dangerous (no more or less) behind the wheel of any car, regardless of mod or not, period. Less dangerous is still not helping the situation.
Thats an odd claim. Why you ask? Forget this person being an idiot for a minute. Give him or her a car that doesnt accelerate that quick, put some mods on then its a totally new experience to handle at a young age, the car may accelerate too quick for his developing reactions to take and bam, he could be in your rear bumper soon enough

.

smash · 26-08-2009 01:17PM

bbk wrote: »

Give him or her a car that doesnt accelerate that quick, put some mods on then its a totally new experience to handle at a young age, the car may accelerate too quick for his developing reactions to take and bam, he could be in your rear bumper soon enough

It's still down to education and driving style though, you don't have to put the foot to the floor when accelerating off the lights!

GTE · 26-08-2009 02:00PM

steve06 wrote: »

It's still down to education and driving style though, you don't have to put the foot to the floor when accelerating off the lights!

I never said you did.

Stainless_Steel · 26-08-2009 02:13PM

bbk wrote: »

I never said you did.

Think you implied that extra hp causes bad driving. That's the way I understood you anyway.

Samba · 26-08-2009 03:22PM

No i've never killed a woman, I've been involved in three crashes and a knock.

O.k, with the knock, I hold my hand up it entirely my fault and I hit a gir., I believe i was doing 15-20mph and no serious damage was done, the matter wasl settled out of Insurance.

In the first incident I was coming down the Killiney(?) road leading in to Dalkey, there is one big long steep hill, the lady behind the wheel literally had about 2 minutes to pull out before I arrived, she pulled out just as I came past the T Junction and I was sent flying over the roof of the car like superman, thankfully I was not seriously hurt even though my bike hit the side of her car doing about 30-35mph, had it not been for Jui Jitsu, I don't think I would have landed quite so smoothely.

My second accident had very similar circumstances, arriving at a T-Junction with a road riddled with speed bumps I would often try to avoid them by going as close to the curb as possible, this possibly saved my life, as at the exact moment I went past the T-Junction an old granny pulled out and rode along side me for 10 meters while I was beeping and screaming but she just kept getting closer and closer to me and the kirb until crunch, again I was relatively unscathed as I manged to jump off to saftey on to the path but the bikes on both occasions were toast.

Third was my biggest accident ever, which to this day I remember vividly.

I was in Brittany on the last day of my holiday, my cousin had just passed her full license (I should have been assured, as the test is very rigorous in France) but it had been a while since she had driven

She was driving a banger and I could tell she was not very comfortable behind the wheel. (Always buy travel insurance folks, I remember before leaving, I bought it by chance as I waited to collect my plane ticket in USIT because the following can happen!)

About 1km before what was the equivalent of an Irish dual carriageway, she stalled the engine and couldn't get it going again, so I got out to give it a push and off we went again, literally seconds before we merged I reminded myself to put my seat belt back on. (I don't think I would be typing this right now had I not)

When she merged on to the main road, she did so in 3rd or 4th gear, it's ironic but perhaps we had our accident because she was not driving fast enough.

I can recall glancing over my shoulder and seeing a Renault coming up behind us at a terrifying speed, at this point, I lunged my foot over to the accelerator pedal and slammed it down as hard as i could over her foot, she screamed WTF are you doing, moments later......BANG, then silence accompanied by further thud. (I later learned that the silence was us flying about 2 meteres in the air into a ditch).

I knew from the offset that ,while we were travelling too slow, the car that hit us was clearly speeding. It was being driven by a young female driver giving some hitch hiker a lift, maybe she was showing off to him.. I don't know her reasons for doing the speed she was but I never got a chance to ask, foolishly, my cousin jumped out and claimed full responsibility for the accident. Based on the skid marks we later got this changed to 50/50 liability.

I had a fractured lumbar vertebrae and compressed vertebrae I spent 3 months in a full upper body cast but I was damn lucky, the first thing the Doc said to me is you are lucky not to be in a wheel chair.

It spelt the end my Jui-Jitsu training, the following year I was due to train 5 nights a week to head off to the Olympics in Greece for the Pankration tournament.

C'est la vie, I hold no grudges about my accident but when I read the tripe that the RSA are continually publishing I can't help but reflect on my own personal driving experiences, which leads me to question the manner in which they derive their statistics.

I think i'm a good case for the launch a warning campaign against Men using the same roads as Women, as women are 75% more likely to cause a fatal accident than male drivers.

It's an Iron clad statistic based on my experiences.

I had a shot at representing Ireland in the Olympics, that was taken away from me by two Women drivers.

Sorry for the long post, I have many more musings from my time on the roads, oddly enough, most of them involve stories with female drivers, there are some with male drivers that i clearly recall but nothing comes close to my experiences with female drivers.

L1011 · 26-08-2009 06:17PM

From my admittedly not entirely full knowledge of the law, the RSA has no ability to restrict the actions of insurance companies and as a state agency, is entirely banned from bringing in rules for one gender and not another. Any attempt to bring in Gaybo's demented dreaming will result in a court case and the RSA being smacked down very, very rapidly.

However, as a reassurance I'm still seriously considering swapping my Irish licence for a UK one! Although again, as its a full one, if they try to bring in restrictions for under 25s it'll likely be legally restricted to those who sit their test after a certain date.

Marlow · 26-08-2009 08:06PM

MYOB wrote: »

Although again, as its a full one, if they try to bring in restrictions for under 25s it'll likely be legally restricted to those who sit their test after a certain date.

That hits the nail on the head. It's exactly where the problem lies.

Doing exactly that, will fix nothing. It will leave whoever is the problem now with exactly the same situation and only maybe fix the situation with the next "generation" of drivers, if at all.

It would be much better to clean up in the mess of the licenses, that were given without any test and fix the roads and signage. Then we'd have far less problems.

/M

Solitaire · 26-08-2009 08:54PM

Marlow wrote:

It would be much better to clean up in the mess of the licenses, that were given without any test and fix the roads and signage. Then we'd have far less problems.

[FFTD]
But... that would cost money! If we keep the roads broken and put up all the wrong signs and ensure half the drivers don't have a clue then they'll all crash and die, and we can blame them rather than the other way around. Then we can use it as an excuse to milk the Penalty Points system as both a giant cash-cow and a great fear weapon to keep all the dirty peasants in line! And to think the Yanks went to all the trouble of manufacturing a War Of Terror!
[/FFTD]

Orange69 · 27-08-2009 04:09AM

A case of "she drives he dies" in the examiner today... :eek: Love how they emphasize "1.5 Litre" like its some kind of turbo charged supercar

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/families-vent-anger-at-driver-during-crash-inquest-99550.html

GARDAÍ at an inquest were forced to separate a young woman from the families of two talented sportsmen who died after she lost control of her car.

Theresa Dingivan had been driving on a provisional licence for just over two months when she lost control of her 1.5 litre Honda Civic on a country road in Cork on August 5, 2007.

Two of her back seat passengers, who hadn’t been wearing seat belts, were thrown from the car.

Michael Murphy, 22, who played GAA and soccer for clubs in his home village of Castlelyons, died instantly. His friend, James Sexton, 19, who played schoolboy soccer with the Republic of Ireland and was a member of the Cork City U-21 team, died a few minutes later.

At the inquest in Mallow, Patrick O’Riordan, solicitor, representing the families of the two men, questioned why Ms Dingivan, from Pearse Square, Fermoy, hadn’t apologised to the Murphy and Sexton families. Coroner Dr Michael Kennedy ruled such a question was not appropriate at an inquest.

The inquest was adjourned a short time later and during the interval Ms Dingivan was approached by TV3 for a comment. She said she was sorry for what happened and wished she could turn back the clock.

When the inquest resumed 15 minutes later, Mr O’Riordan informed the coroner what had happened.

Dr Kennedy said it would have been a different matter if Ms Dingivan had spoken to any witnesses during the recess, but he nevertheless thought her actions inappropriate.

After the jury returneda verdict of death by misadventure, Ms Dingivan’s mother, Denise, turned towards the grieving families and started to offer apologies for what had happened.

Some members of the distraught Murphy family started to shout her down and asked why it had taken so long for any apology to be issued. Michael Murphy’s mother, Mary, broke into tears and had to be comforted by relatives. The Sexton family remained silent.

At this stage gardaí moved in to ensure the families left the building separately. They first escorted the Dingivan family out and when they had left the area, the Murphy and Sexton families followed.

Last November, a jury at Cork Circuit Criminal Court found Theresa Dingivan not guilty of dangerous driving causing death.

Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/families-vent-anger-at-driver-during-crash-inquest-99550.html#ixzz0PLheEHUJ

Seth Brundle · 27-08-2009 08:26AM

Orange69 wrote: »

A case of "she drives he dies" in the examiner today...

...or a case of she was an inexperienced driver and the lads in the back were too stupid to put on their seatbelts.
Personally she is only partly responsible for their deaths, they are more at fault!

GTE · 27-08-2009 08:32AM

Think you implied that extra hp causes bad driving. That's the way I understood you anyway.

I said that in various forms but I never said everyone goes foot to the floor from lights all the time.

Orange69 wrote: »

A case of "she drives he dies" in the examiner today... :eek: Love how they emphasize "1.5 Litre" like its some kind of turbo charged supercar

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/families-vent-anger-at-driver-during-crash-inquest-99550.html

I saw that in the news yesterday, but no one has made the connection between that and the campaign talked about here. Maybe someone did on the radio. It would be interesting to hear reactions from the powers at be in the RSA about it.

Has anyone who has sent emails complaining gotten a meaningful response yet?

cpoh1 · 27-08-2009 08:44AM

kbannon wrote: »

...or a case of she was an inexperienced driver and the lads in the back were too stupid to put on their seatbelts.
Personally she is only partly responsible for their deaths, they are more at fault!

Personally I would say its 40% the governments fault for not providing adequate training in place for young inexperienced drivers and not putting procedures in place to ensure learner drivers are kept off the road unless fully supervised. Technically they have but there a culture of indifference to this rule right from the top, through the gardai who enforce it right down to the people who abuse it. The government are responsible for this rot.

The lady driver was 40% at fault, for getting in the car unaccompanied and without adequate training and for driving beyond the limits of her ability causing the crash.

The lads 20% for being stupid enough to get in a car with an unqualified driver and not wearing seatbelts.

A very sad case overall and makes a mockery of this campaign of "he drives she dies"

Time for a new campaign " She drives (into pothole) , He fixes puncture"

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