DAB in Ireland: RTE multiplex closed

watty · 30-06-2009 2:17pm

No-one till recently suggested ensuring DAB success by turning off FM Radio. The EU has no such plans

But it was suggested in the "digital Britain" report.

Or was it?

Radio analyst Grant Goddard points out that contrary to media reports, there's no mention of an analogue switch-off in the Carter report, and no edict to close down analogue transmission. It's merely an inference, based on some wishful thinking. Carter has kicked the radio crisis back onto the industry.

From http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/19/carter_radio_dumb_media/

The backlash
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/29/dab_noswitchoff_mailbag/

watty · 02-07-2009 5:54pm

Another big setback for DAB.

The French system mandated for all cars from 2012 is t-DMB and manufactuers where not consulted. This may be reveresed.

The Germans & Swiss don't want to invest in DAB+
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/02/euro_dab_snub/

So unlike ubiquitous FM we have a hotch potch of incompatible standards with little real support anywhere. It's a Doctrinare push from some Governments rather from Broadcasters, Consumers or Car Makers.

david23 · 02-07-2009 8:06pm

watty wrote: »

Another big setback for DAB.

The French system mandated for all cars from 2012 is t-DMB and manufactuers where not consulted. This may be reveresed.

The Germans & Swiss don't want to invest in DAB+
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/02/euro_dab_snub/

So unlike ubiquitous FM we have a hotch potch of incompatible standards with little real support anywhere. It's a Doctrinare push from some Governments rather from Broadcasters, Consumers or Car Makers.

DAB, DAB+ & T-DMB are all the same standard (Eureka 147), so there's no hotch-potch. Car radios will be manufactured according to WorldDMB Profile 1, and will receive all three variants of Eureka 147:

http://www.worlddab.org/public_documents/WorldDMB_Digital_Radio_Receiver_Profiles.pdf

"The Germans & Swiss don't want to invest in DAB" isn't actually true as a statement.

"The other association to which German commercial radio broadcasters can belong (APR), the association of regional public-service broadcasters (ARD), the motoring organisation ADAC, the national public-service broadcaster (DeutschlandRadio), and the transmission provider Media Broadcast, along with both industry associations (VDA and ZVEI) had earlier issued a press release stating that they continue to work towards the digitalisation of terrestrial radio using DAB+. The release acknowledges economic hurdles, but states that they can be overcome with many partners taking an active role."

http://www.wohnort.org/DAB/

(scroll down to article dated 26th June)

The VPRT are holding out for public handouts and regulatory sweeteners (such as the licence extensions handed out in the UK). They're basically saying "we won't play ball with your little plan unless you make it worth our while financially".

watty · 02-07-2009 8:23pm

Finicky details

Your Current Currys/Dixon bought radio won't work in France. Only the same Family.

A significant section of Broadcasters don't want it. Significant section of public don't want it. It's the Government pushing it.

In the UK also Ofcom is using bribery because the Commercial stations don't want it. Ofcom says buy a DAB licence and we renew your FM licence automatically. That's not a sweetener, it's bribery with implied menaces.

DAB is clunky, unwanted and being foisted on people.

DAB already failed in Germany hence the push to relaunch as DAB+.

There is value to DTT. But none to DAB.
Not as portable, power hungry, no higher quality, no compelling feature for people that want to listen to radio and a multiplicity of standards so older sets are obsolete already and you have to find virtually unavailable sets to do all DAB standards, most of which don't do DRM or DRM+ and some don't even do LW/MW/FM. Needed for many years as some small local stations/comunity radio will be VHF-FM nearly forever and R4, French, German DX LW is AM till DRM is widely available. DAB will never be used LF/MF/HF, DRM already is, though it will be a long time before it replaces AM.

The Pro DAB lobby appear to be Digital at all costs/Doctrinaire rather than pragmatic.

TBH I'm a bit fed up with us being told that DAB is the next bright thing and we need it. That is nonsense.

watty · 07-07-2009 6:33pm

Maybe the BBC have no real strategy.
See
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/07/bbc_dab/

Has RTE got a plan? At the minute no date for even nationwide car coverage.

L1011 · 12-07-2009 11:26pm

Signal is away to muck tonight here... would suspect the SFN is out of time sync again!

DMC · 21-07-2009 11:22pm

Mux 2 is alive.

Channel DMB there, no audio.

L1011 · 23-07-2009 12:08am

DMB - oh god, please don't spend 18 months dicking around with mobile TV...

Pure Evoke here is detecting signal but finding no content.

watty · 23-07-2009 9:16am

/me pats crystal radio.

netwhizkid · 04-08-2009 12:18pm

DAB in Dublin??

I am thinking of buying a portable DAB radio; I live in Kerry and know I won't get reception locally from Mullaghanish as there is no service IIRC. However what I am interested in getting it for is to listen to the radio (with headphones) in Croke Park. What stations are being broadcast in Dublin now? Are Radio Kerry still broadcasting on the multiplex? My own real interest is for to listen to Radio Kerry in Croke Park during matches:rolleyes:

Anyone know of the DAB situation in Dublin and if there are any plans for DAB from Mullaghanish and is Radio Kerry broadcasting on DAB still?

Cheers!

watty · 04-08-2009 1:10pm

Only RTE.

No plans to extend DAB right now.

A portable FM radio is better anyway than DAB currently

Antenna · 06-08-2009 10:39am

netwhizkid wrote: »

However what I am interested in getting it for is to listen to the radio (with headphones) in Croke Park. What stations are being broadcast in Dublin now? Are Radio Kerry still broadcasting on the multiplex? My own real interest is for to listen to Radio Kerry in Croke Park during matches:rolleyes:

Anyone know of the DAB situation in Dublin and if there are any plans for DAB from Mullaghanish and is Radio Kerry broadcasting on DAB still?

Cheers!

Only RTE DAB is transmitting to Dublin. The independent MUX available in Dublin and the north east, which carried R. Kerry for a while, stopped ages ago and has not returned.

BTW even if R. Kerry was available on DAB in Croke Park, the commentary would be lagging the action by several seconds! -- listening to radio commentary in sports stadiums is one area where analogue technology has a clear advantage!

Biffo The Bare · 07-08-2009 10:21am

DAB radio uptake in Britain has increased to 13.1% and digital radio uptake has increased by 800,000 in the last year.
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/broadcasting/a169685/digital-radio-draws-800000-new-listeners.html
I, unlike a lot of people on this forum think that DAB has a future in Ireland. Its neat, convenient and efficient.
The BCI should give free slots to the independents to create interest with the general public in Ireland.

07-08-2009 11:04am

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

DAB radio uptake in Britain has increased to 13.1% and digital radio uptake has increased by 800,000 in the last year.
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/broadcasting/a169685/digital-radio-draws-800000-new-listeners.html
I, unlike a lot of people on this forum think that DAB has a future in Ireland. Its neat, convenient and efficient.
The BCI should give free slots to the independents to create interest with the general public in Ireland.

It's the same as the dtt debacle.

Dab in Britain is popular because it's widespread.
You can have one in your car and have coverage on most if not all motorways..

Meanwhile in Ireland when such a possibility is mentioned... the BCI go... " oh look a squirrell...!

A dream scenario for Dab would be the bbc stations including the world service and five live,any local stations that wanted to go on it and motorway coverage.
The motorway coverage would ensure most major towns would have it.

Mossy Monk · 07-08-2009 11:35am

Good point. Until you can drive long distances and keep listening then people wont be bothered. Large patches of the country with no coverage at all.

watty · 07-08-2009 4:54pm

Biffo The Bare wrote: »

DAB radio uptake in Britain has increased to 13.1% and digital radio uptake has increased by 800,000 in the last year.
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/broadcasting/a169685/digital-radio-draws-800000-new-listeners.html
I, unlike a lot of people on this forum think that DAB has a future in Ireland. Its neat, convenient and efficient.
The BCI should give free slots to the independents to create interest with the general public in Ireland.

The Independents mostly don't want it. That's why they are not on it.

That 13% is not even real usage. It's based on how many can get it and have occasionally used it. It's quite unpopular in UK due to poor coverage and poor quality compared to FM. Even if 13% was real, it's pathetic for the length of time DAB running. At that level of growth they can't even contemplate an FM closedown date.

* It's less neat than FM. Can't be miniaturised as much.
* It's no more convenient. My Car radio works automatically seamlessly getting RTE1 everywhere in Ireland on (1) memory no mater the local FM frequency. Loads of Phones and Walkmans/PMPs have FM. I've seen one with DVB-h and none with DAB.
* It's very very much less efficient for portable radios. I can run an FM radio on a single AAA cell for nearly a month! Battery life on portable DAB is terrible. The higher frequency makes coverage poorer.

Elmo · 07-08-2009 4:55pm

watty wrote: »

The Independents mostly don't want it. That's why they are not on it.

That 13% is not even real usage. It's based on how many can get it and have occasionally used it. It's quite unpopular in UK due to poor coverage and poor quality compared to FM.

* It's less neat than FM. Can't be miniaturised as much.
* It's no more convenient. My Car radio works automatically seamlessly getting RTE1 everywhere in Ireland on (1) memory no mater the local FM frequency. Loads of Phones and Walkmans/PMPs have FM. I've seen one with DVB-h and none with DAB.
* It's very very much less efficient for portable radios. I can run an FM radio on a single AAA cell for nearly a month! Battery life on portable DAB is terrible. The higher frequency makes coverage poorer.

Is DTT used much for Radio?

zilog_jones · 07-08-2009 7:09pm

DTT services usually offer radio stations (not sure if the trials here currently are), don't know if there are radio receivers (i.e. not a TV) capable of receiving DVB-T radio or even if that's a possibility.

watty · 07-08-2009 8:38pm

There is phone on German Market that has DVB-t for radio & TV

Yes, the trials here have radio on DTT, and that *DOES* work with UK Tvs and German Phoen and Freeview boxeas as it's only the picture of TV channels that use MPEG4 (the sound of the TV works too).

scath · 08-08-2009 5:20am

watty wrote: »

There is phone on German Market that has DVB-t for radio & TV

Yes, the trials here have radio on DTT, and that *DOES* work with UK Tvs and German Phoen and Freeview boxeas as it's only the picture of TV channels that use MPEG4 (the sound of the TV works too).

Sounds to me like its something we should consider here, saving the money on DAB broadcasts. I'm sure its possible for radio units with just the DTT sound to be retailed. I read there are reasons why DVB-H would be better for mobile TV, but DTT is still possible. DTT radios would be really good because TV stations could double up as radio stations and provide an alternative radio experience than people are currently used of.

In the current climate isn't that really the thing to do if its possible for such radios to be retailed, it would be cost & spectrum efficient. For mobile operators surely its the way to go instead of this multi-city mobile TV license. Then again maybe programme durations have to be shorter but still the technology should be DTT. Such would also give people who like shorter programmes an alternative.

So depending on if all goes well it really is next September 2010 we read. Hopefully Onevision do sign and RTÉ could get the finance. RTÉ should have or maybe did put the proceeds of the Cablelink sale for DTT.

zilog_jones · 08-08-2009 4:03pm

I don't think using DVB-T for radio would be a good idea. For starters UHF coverage is a lot worse than analogue Band II FM, and I can only assume that the power required to receive DVB-T audio is similar to what is needed for DAB if not worse (do they use MP2 audio for radio on DTT?), which as Watty pointed out is impractical compared to analogue FM.

Personally I think 128k MP2 audio is not acceptable for music and to my ears is worse than analogue FM. They should have waited for AAC+, but power consumption of receivers, audio delay, etc. would still be a hinderance.

L1011 · 08-08-2009 4:59pm

While it is of course possible for DVB-T 'radio only' units to be made, they currently don't exist; and UHF reception on the move is VERY difficult.

Biffo The Bare · 10-08-2009 11:57am

watty wrote: »

* It's less neat than FM. Can't be miniaturised as much.
* It's no more convenient. My Car radio works automatically seamlessly getting RTE1 everywhere in Ireland on (1) memory no mater the local FM frequency. Loads of Phones and Walkmans/PMPs have FM. I've seen one with DVB-h and none with DAB.
* It's very very much less efficient for portable radios. I can run an FM radio on a single AAA cell for nearly a month! Battery life on portable DAB is terrible. The higher frequency makes coverage poorer.

I wish you wouldn't generalise on the technical issues.
1: There are single chip DAB radios on the market now. Texas Instruments make a range of DAB radio chips.
2: DAB Radio can be available right across Ireland if the will is there.
3: Roberts have a range of DAB/FM radios that will last 120 hours on a single battery change. This is at least comparable to standard analogue receivers.
4: DAB is more bandwidth efficient than analogue.
5: DAB offers more potential choice to the customer.

watty · 10-08-2009 12:55pm

1) Irrelvent.
2) So what? Who pays?
3) What size of battery, what listening conditons? It's not a Pocket radio.
4) Not an issue with Audio. It's only an issue with Video. Too little bandwidth is allocated in UK and Ireland which means you can only have more stations at cost of quality.
5) More stations means less revenue per station and lower choice and quality as they chase revenue. SFN can't have every local station, so in UK they already concluded that Community and local needs to remain be on FM Band II.

Newer or Digital for the sake of it does not always benefit the consumer. DAB has and is been over sold. I'm redressing the balance.

The extra transmission costs would kill the budgets of commercial Radio.

Biffo The Bare · 10-08-2009 1:55pm

watty wrote: »

1) Irrelvent.
2) So what? Who pays?
3) What size of battery, what listening conditons? It's not a Pocket radio.
4) Not an issue with Audio. It's only an issue with Video. Too little bandwidth is allocated in UK and Ireland which means you can only have more stations at cost of quality.
5) More stations means less revenue per station and lower choice and quality as they chase revenue. SFN can't have every local station, so in UK they already concluded that Community and local needs to remain be on FM Band II.

Newer or Digital for the sake of it does not always benefit the consumer. DAB has and is been over sold. I'm redressing the balance.

The extra transmission costs would kill the budgets of commercial Radio.

How is point 1 irrelevant?
Surely the fact that you can have a single chip radio rebukes your first and third points, "It's less neat than FM. Can't be miniaturised as much." / It's not a Pocket radio
It already has. See http://www.pixels.ie/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=404

Battery life depends on the model. On average DAB uses 20% more power than analogue, but figure this is gradually coming down.

Your point: More stations means less revenue per station and lower choice and quality as they chase revenue. = Irrelevant to my point

Amount of Bandwidth used is always going to be an issue with any technology.

Elmo · 10-08-2009 1:58pm

I think it is good that we have some digital service. I assume that the broadcasts allow for engineers to understand the workings of the service and continued upgrading of RTÉ NL's network. Other networks should be providing this kind of maintenance, research and development as it will be what we will be working on in the future.

10-08-2009 7:00pm

watty wrote: »

5) More stations means less revenue per station and lower choice and quality as they chase revenue.

Couldn't agree more, just look at the way television has gone.

marclt · 10-08-2009 7:29pm

I think you'll find that DAB is accounting for an increasing number of listening hours here in the UK. That means stations can sell more advertising by saying they are on different platforms.

I'm sure RTE make play of the fact they are on Satellite in selling advertising. The same could be said for other commercial operators too.

Consumers will expect to be able to hear their favourite stations on whatever platforms are available and those that aren't will be left behind.

The current situation is quite discriminatory - RTE can broadcast their services in part of the country when they should be broadcasting DAB nationwide. It has to be all or nothing. As per usual there is a two tier system... but everyone pays the same licence fee!

mjsmyth · 10-08-2009 9:42pm

Is the market really there for DAB?

Are the masses really going to pay €120 for a pocket sized DAB radio?? Is the sound quality of that radio really that much better than a similar sized FM radio?

Whilst the price of DAB receivers are dropping in Europe, they are still way above the cost of a standard radio. Most people I see when traveling either use an mp3 type player or mobile phone for their audio on the move. How much will DAB add to the cost of their mobile phone or mp3 player?

Also, will those who listen to radio at home or office during the day really gain anything from switching to DAB? I don't think so. In my experience, those who listen in the home during the day generally listen to one channel, be that their local channel or one of the nationals. Even though there are a wealth of channels out there, they don't switch.

Think about yourself and family as users. Where do you all listen to the radio most? On the move using your phone? In the car going too and from work? In the office in the background? At home whilst washing up? Will DAB really improve the experience?

It strikes me that the things that will stop the take up of DAB in this country are the cost and people failing to see any real tangible improvement.

Just my thoughts.

mj

ps.
Interesting article about DB in the UK:
http://kn.theiet.org/communities/multimedia/blog/switch-off.cfm

Elmo · 10-08-2009 10:22pm

marclt wrote: »

The current situation is quite discriminatory - RTE can broadcast their services in part of the country when they should be broadcasting DAB nationwide. It has to be all or nothing. As per usual there is a two tier system... but everyone pays the same licence fee!

This brings us right back to the argument that RTÉ don't have the support of the independent broadcasters. UTV and Communicorp should be involved and supportive.

DAB in Ireland: RTE multiplex closed

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