Father prays daughter to death

philologos · 02-08-2009 06:46PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Jakkass, I actually like you, you're young (well, younger than me:)), you're clearly very intelligent, but please, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, cop on to yourself.

Nice to know that you have good will towards me, but I really feel that Christianity makes sense as a life philosophy and belief system.

As for my intelligence, I think many would debate that with you here

I don't think I'll be going back on the decision I have made, but I understand that you disagree with me and I'm okay with that.

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

so we don't have free will then?

We do. I believe that we have a considerable degree of authority as to what happens to us, but not complete authority.

For example, I can decide what I want to eat today, but I cannot decide if I want to be rained on when I am outside.

Free will doesn't have anything to do with God answering prayers. When one prays one is making a petition to God, to do something for someone. When that prayer is made, the ball is in God's court.

I'm personally glad that God has said no to some of my prayers, because had they been answered the way I wanted at the time I would have regretted them.

Edit: Just in continuation. If God had to answer all our prayers with "yes", God will would no longer be God's will, but our will, and God would be our puppet rather than who He is.

mike65 · 02-08-2009 06:46PM

The words of the great God of Grumpy Old Men springs to mind.

Turtwig · 02-08-2009 06:50PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Nice to know that you have good will towards me, but I really feel that Christianity makes sense as a life philosophy and belief system.

As for my intelligence, I think many would debate that with you here

I don't think I'll be going back on the decision I have made, but I understand that you disagree with me and I'm okay with that.

We do. I believe that we have a considerable degree of authority as to what happens to us, but not complete authority.

For example, I can decide what I want to eat today, but I cannot decide if I want to be rained on when I am outside.

Free will doesn't have anything to do with God answering prayers. When one prays one is making a petition to God, to do something for someone. When that prayer is made, the ball is in God's court.

I'm personally glad that God has said no to some of my prayers, because had they been answered the way I wanted at the time I would have regretted them.

Ya know, I really think you should frame this post for later to look back at because I actually see you losing Christianity very shortly... you're almost there; you just haven't realised it yet

The ball's in your own court.

philologos · 02-08-2009 06:54PM

Malty_T wrote: »

Ya know, I really think you should frame this post for later to look back at because I actually see you losing Christianity very shortly... you're almost there; you just haven't realised it yet
The ball's in your own court.

Why can you see me losing Christianity very shortly? Just curious?

Frame the post if you want, I have a feeling that I'll be saying that Jesus Christ is Lord until I am on my deathbed, but we'll see.

As for the ball being in my court. The ball was in my court when I was unsure of my beliefs about 3 years ago too, I decided for myself to look to Christianity.

Call Me Jimmy · 02-08-2009 07:08PM

so it's god's will if he doesn't intervene, and obviously it's his will when he does. so where's the free will?

philologos · 02-08-2009 07:12PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

so it's god's will if he doesn't intervene, and obviously it's his will when he does. so where's the free will?

Free will has absolutely nothing to do with God answering prayers.

When one prays, one is leaving a petition before God, it is up to God to decide what is appropriate to do in that situation.

Free will has to do with our freedom to do as we will, it doesn't mean we decide what answer God gives to our prayers. There is a lot of scope for what we can do as individuals. Prayer and what God will do, is up to God.

God also has free will. If God were coerced to answer our every single prayer, God would no longer be God, but a puppet.

It's a strange thing that human beings expect their prayers to be automatically answered as if they have authority over God instead of the other way around.

Call Me Jimmy · 02-08-2009 07:19PM

I wouldn't expect prayers to be answered, but god is the one making the decisions. If i pray for my child to live after an accident, you are saying that god will either say yes or no. so god controls whether the doctors can save him or not?

By not answering a prayer (any prayer) he decides our fate. Likewise if he chooses to answer a prayer, he is deciding our fate. So the only way for us to have free will is not to pray.

e.g. if i want to do something and someone else prays to god for me not to, you are saying he ultimately decides whether I do it by answering/not answering the prayer.

philologos · 02-08-2009 07:33PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

I wouldn't expect prayers to be answered, but god is the one making the decisions. If i pray for my child to live after an accident, you are saying that god will either say yes or no. so god controls whether the doctors can save him or not?

I believe that God has laid out things for a particular purpose. It becomes difficult when we discuss pain and suffering, but if I am to remain true to my position I believe that pain and suffering has a purpose. We often cannot understand what that purpose is at times however.

God has a knowledge of the past, present and future and I generally believe that things happen for a reason. Other people don't believe there is any reason or purpose to why things happen the way they do.

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

By not answering a prayer (any prayer) he decides our fate. Likewise if he chooses to answer a prayer, he is deciding our fate. So the only way for us to have free will is not to pray.

I think God does decide our fate to an extent. I said in my previous post that we don't have complete control over things. We have control over what we can control. Hence why I brought in the food and being rained on example. Often we can't determine life or death, and we can't force the weather to be the way it is, it just is, amongst numerous other things.

We have free will to decide what we can do with our lives, but we cannot control everything that happens.

You claim the "only way for us to have free will is not to pray". That doesn't make sense as one would have to exercise ones free will to pray in the first place. I personally believe God controls a lot of what happens whether or not we pray.

Call Me Jimmy · 02-08-2009 07:38PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

e.g. if i want to do something and someone else prays to god for me not to, you are saying he ultimately decides whether I do it by answering/not answering the prayer.

would you say there is any free will in this situation?

ihadu · 02-08-2009 07:43PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I believe that God has laid out things for a particular purpose. It becomes difficult when we discuss pain and suffering, but if I am to remain true to my position I believe that pain and suffering has a purpose. We often cannot understand what that purpose is at times however.

God has a knowledge of the past, present and future and I generally believe that things happen for a reason. Other people don't believe there is any reason or purpose to why things happen the way they do.

I think God does decide our fate to an extent. I said in my previous post that we don't have complete control over things. We have control over what we can control. Hence why I brought in the food and being rained on example. Often we can't determine life or death, and we can't force the weather to be the way it is, it just is, amongst numerous other things.

We have free will to decide what we can do with our lives, but we cannot control everything that happens.

You claim the "only way for us to have free will is not to pray". That doesn't make sense as one would have to exercise ones free will to pray in the first place. I personally believe God controls a lot of what happens whether or not we pray.

so beautifully vague.

i'm also loving your authority on this...

philologos · 02-08-2009 07:46PM

ihadu wrote: »

so beautifully vague.

i'm also loving your authority on this...

What authority? People are entitled to have whatever view they wish.

philologos · 02-08-2009 07:52PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

e.g. if i want to do something and someone else prays to god for me not to, you are saying he ultimately decides whether I do it by answering/not answering the prayer.

If this thing you want to do is something that you are fully capable of doing yourself, you will be responsible for your own actions. It is up to you entirely whether or not you want to do that thing irrespective of whether or not someone prays for you not to.

It also depends on what the purpose for your action is, is it something you are going to learn from later? I think there are factors to be taken into account for how things happen and why they happen.

There are things that I have done in the past that I regret, yet I think I needed to do them so that I could determine what the right way was, and then repent of it.

I don't think that God is a straight forward being, or that we know everything about Him. I don't pretend to know everything about Him either, but I have some theories on how He might operate. It may also be useful to bear in mind that my opinions are by no means held as any form of doctrine in any church. They are merely my own.

Turtwig · 02-08-2009 08:06PM

Jakkass wrote: »

. It may also be useful to bear in mind that my opinions are by no means held as any form of doctrine in any church. They are merely my own.

Getting closer

philologos · 02-08-2009 09:11PM

Malty_T wrote: »

Getting closer

I don't think it makes me any closer to becoming an atheist :pac:. I think people should learn to understand it and read the Bible for themselves instead of trusting other people entirely to tell them. I also value religious community too though.

procure11 · 02-08-2009 10:04PM

I am very aware that everyone is entitled to their opinion on Boards...and I applaude the Mods/Admin/posters for exercising this right...as it makes the whole forum fun and educative (within reason).

What I dont get is the fact that people can say all sorts and debase religion and make so much innuendo about christains/muslims/religious people and get away with it..literarily.
But if anyone so much as says anything against homosexuality ...there would be a barrage of insults and curses and 9.5 out of 10 ..the poster that has issues with homosexuality would get banned and usually accomapanied with hundreds of thanks buttons.Paradoxically,its a free for all affair for God haters...and incidentally Mods usually join in the fun.

Why is this the case?

ihadu · 02-08-2009 10:11PM

procure11 wrote: »

I am very aware that everyone is entitled to their opinion on Boards...and I applaude the Mods/Admin/posters for exercising this right...as it makes the whole forum fun and educative (within reason).

What I dont get is the fact that people can say all sorts and debase religion and make so much innuendo about christains/muslims/religious people and get away with it..literarily.
But if anyone so much as says anything against homosexuality ...there would be a barrage of insults and curses and 9.5 out of 10 ..the poster that has issues with homosexuality would get banned and usually accomapanied with hundreds of thanks buttons.Paradoxically,its a free for all affair for God haters...and incidentally Mods usually join in the fun.

Why is this the case?

how is this the case, you might want to look up the word first.
religion is a nonsense, we have perez hilton to worship now

Panda Bear · 02-08-2009 10:14PM

I also just read this Sick Idiots, Porr poor child. The whole church that promotes this type of crap should be under investigation. It leaders and it whole sick congregation. This type of practice on defensless people amounts to manslaughters.

procure11 · 02-08-2009 10:19PM

ihadu wrote: »

how is this the case, you might want to look up the word first.
religion is a nonsense, we have perez hilton to worship now

For someone correcting my wrong use of a word....the above suggests to me that you dont have mastery of the English language yourself.:o

It would have been sufficient for you to either ignore my post or at least make a better point.

Gummy Panda · 02-08-2009 10:19PM

procure11 wrote: »

I am very aware that everyone is entitled to their opinion on Boards...and I applaude the Mods/Admin/posters for exercising this right...as it makes the whole forum fun and educative (within reason).

What I dont get is the fact that people can say all sorts and debase religion and make so much innuendo about christains/muslims/religious people and get away with it..literarily.
But if anyone so much as says anything against homosexuality ...there would be a barrage of insults and curses and 9.5 out of 10 ..the poster that has issues with homosexuality would get banned and usually accomapanied with hundreds of thanks buttons.Paradoxically,its a free for all affair for God haters...and incidentally Mods usually join in the fun.

Why is this the case?

God isn't a real person that will get upset over being told they're not natural, homosexuals are and post on boards.

Let's all play nice together. I'm sure there are Christians on boards who have their views on homosexuality but accept that they can't change people.

ihadu · 02-08-2009 10:25PM

procure11 wrote: »

For someone correcting my wrong use of a word....the above suggests to me that you dont have mastery of the English language yourself.:o

It would have been sufficient for you to either ignore my post or at least make a better point.

whats wrong with "religion is a nonsense" as a statement/fact?

if you believe in stardust, fairies and a fat santa in the sky thats fine. they can't be offended cause theyre not real, the gays are.

philologos · 02-08-2009 10:29PM

ihadu wrote: »

how is this the case, you might want to look up the word first.
religion is a nonsense, we have perez hilton to worship now

RLY?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu_WN4RAwhU

procure11 wrote: »

What I dont get is the fact that people can say all sorts and debase religion and make so much innuendo about christains/muslims/religious people and get away with it..literarily.

The reality is that people of faith are going to have to face these opinions whether they like them or not. We have to ask ourselves, are these opinions better off in the open where we can challenge them, or concealed where nobody will ever challenge them?

procure11 wrote: »

But if anyone so much as says anything against homosexuality ...there would be a barrage of insults and curses and 9.5 out of 10 ..the poster that has issues with homosexuality would get banned and usually accomapanied with hundreds of thanks buttons.Paradoxically,its a free for all affair for God haters...and incidentally Mods usually join in the fun.

If people cannot put a reasonable opinion across without abuse, it's a bad reflection on them rather than on anyone else.

procure11 wrote: »

Why is this the case?

This board has a liberal / anti-theist consensus for the most part which is odd considering that this level of anti-theism isn't really visible in public. Then again, people are generally more vocal on the internet than off it.

dvpower · 02-08-2009 10:31PM

procure11 wrote: »

What I dont get is the fact that people can say all sorts and debase religion and make so much innuendo about christains/muslims/religious people and get away with it..literarily.
But if anyone so much as says anything against homosexuality ...there would be a barrage of insults and curses and 9.5 out of 10 ..the poster that has issues with homosexuality would get banned and usually accomapanied with hundreds of thanks buttons.Paradoxically,its a free for all affair for God haters...and incidentally Mods usually join in the fun.

Why is this the case?

One chooses to be religious; one doesn't choose to be homosexual (/opens can of worms)

procure11 · 02-08-2009 10:33PM

ihadu wrote: »

whats wrong with "religion is a nonsense" as a statement/fact?

if you believe in stardust, fairies and a fat santa in the sky thats fine. they can't be offended cause theyre not real, the gays are.

Well said.Gays exist and so do people who honestly, based on their convictions believe and feel that God exist and they worship him...it might sound idiotic and repulsive to a lot of folks but if I borrow a widely used cliche...each man to their own..
Just because you do not believe in God doesnt mean you have the right to demean those who do.

philologos · 02-08-2009 10:36PM

ihadu wrote: »

whats wrong with "religion is a nonsense" as a statement/fact?

It isn't a fact at all. That's your problem right there

A fact is generally accepted. It isn't generally accepted that religion is nonsense, infact far from it. 84% of the worlds population hold to a religion of some form at least nominally.

ihadu · 02-08-2009 10:44PM

Jakkass wrote: »

It isn't a fact at all. That's your problem right there

A fact is generally accepted. It isn't generally accepted that religion is nonsense, infact far from it. 84% of the worlds population hold to a religion of some form at least nominally.

if my perez joke was lost on you and you believe in living your life according to the preachings of a book written nearly 2000 years ago, by a troop of fanastist drunks, i can't communicate with you.

Sharpshooter · 02-08-2009 10:47PM

ihadu wrote: »

and admit this hocuspocus nonsense is just that. their flock should grow up, take ownership of their lives and realise theyve wasted their short time on this earth dreaming about some fantasy land that doesn't exist.

ihadu wrote: »

when is it not selfish/moronic?

ihadu wrote: »

written by pissed up fantasists, read by needy fools.

ihadu wrote: »

i'm genuinely not surprised. when people, who believe in fairies and some fat sky wizard start procreating, this is to be expected.
however it brings me joy. the more this happens the more beds are available in hospitals for me

ihadu wrote: »

so beautifully vague.

i'm also loving your authority on this...

ihadu wrote: »

how is this the case, you might want to look up the word first.
religion is a nonsense, we have perez hilton to worship now

ihadu wrote: »

whats wrong with "religion is a nonsense" as a statement/fact?

if you believe in stardust, fairies and a fat santa in the sky thats fine. they can't be offended cause theyre not real, the gays are.

Banned for trolling.

philologos · 02-08-2009 10:48PM

ihadu wrote: »

if my perez joke was lost on you and you believe in living your life according to the preachings of a book written nearly 2000 years ago, by a troop of fanastist drunks, i can't communicate with you.

It's curious how atheists somehow think the age of a book has any bearing on it's truth. Surely if the Biblical text is true, it is true irrespective of age.

As for drunks, considering how coherent the Bible actually is, I highly doubt that it was written by drunkards. Also, considering that the Bible condemns drunkenness on those same pages it'd be mighty hypocritical to do so also

dvpower · 02-08-2009 10:54PM

procure11 wrote: »

What I dont get is the fact that people can say all sorts and debase religion and make so much innuendo about christains/muslims/religious people and get away with it..literarily.
But if anyone so much as says anything against homosexuality ...

Sharpshooter wrote: »

Banned for trolling.

So there is a God

Sharpshooter · 02-08-2009 11:08PM

dvpower wrote: »

So there is a Mod

FYP.

Call Me Jimmy · 02-08-2009 11:09PM

If something someone says is completely hypocritical, I'll challenge it in a discussion for entertainment.

Homosexuality can be examined scientifically, and I have had a discussion about the nature of homosexuality without problems on this board. But if I said I think homosexuality is a choice I would expect to be challenged. How someone can feel victimised by questions about their opinion is beyond me.

Father prays daughter to death

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