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which college and why

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    #62
    ALincoln
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭ALincoln


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Lol fine, the campus is in the center of Ireland's biggest city, it has the most history, the best library (vital for law), the most direct route to Kings Inn, the most societies, the only name that's not a ****ing acronym (yes that's important to me). Not only that but your argument for any other college is completely invalid. Colleges may value the degree more, but for Law its still the TCD agree, I like it because its got a large close student body and lastly a lot of my friends are going there.

    Oh, and nearly every ranking system IN THE WORLD puts Trinity over all other Irish universities, and until you find a foreign list that puts something over it, I will continue to point that out.

    My arguments for other colleges couldn't be invalid...because I never made any. Since we're on the topic however, it's worthwhile mentioning that your assertion that the "TCD degree" sways employers (although it likely can't be empirically proven either way) is probably untrue. Other legal degree programmes are rapidly becoming highly valued for their progressive nature - take for example the BCL Clinical in UCC - this imports the American concept of the necessity of practical experience in law school.

    The fastest route to King's, by the way, is a good law degree...from any university which offers a BCL or LLB.

    Finally, just because nearly every survey represents something as being true does not necessarily make it gospel. What about the surveys that don't?


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    #63
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,604 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    ucd
    Lincoln Employer satisfaction is listed on that link too, its factored into the ranking. Trinity is 43 and UCD is 68, none other are on page.

    I think you guys need to stop kidding yourselves, Trinity is full of elitist fags (I know, like me) and that's true. The truth is while people who think they are elite go there people who think they are elite will come out, and generally do better.

    You seem to think a college can't be ranking in any numerical value, so what would you have me base my decision on? The times has gone to a lot of effort to compile a perfectly good list taking in multiple factors, and a list Trinity scores clearly better on.

    Not only that, but Law in Trinity will contain only people (probably not including me) who score 550 or over, surrounded by that intelligence you will do better. And don't argue with me about the LC been a bad represent of intelligence, because on average its just not.

    Would you rather I based this on campus
    UCD = 1960 architectural relic, with pond which test positive for malaria.
    DCU = I must confess I won't consider as its too far away
    DIT = If I wanted to get taught in a home, I would do an open university degree in my own home
    Maynooth = Its in Kildare...
    Galway = I wonder what it would look like if you didn't see it through beer goggles, I guess we will never know...
    Limerick = I prefer not to be in bullet trajectories
    Cork = Nice college nice campus, I live in Dublin though
    Trinity = Beautiful Campus (ok arts building looks a bit sketch) brilliant location.

    Or how about Alumni
    Nobel Prize Winners ?
    Poets ?
    I know Cowen went to UCD. Legend.

    You're going to say I am the one who is ignorant because I just blindly go to Trinity, but I at least acknowledge that my reasons are somewhat shallow, however better shallow reason to go to Trinity, than no reason to go to UCD.

    And believe me, its no prejudice, both my elder brothers graduated from UCD and are doing very very well for themselves. I wish I could be as successful, but Trinity is the place for me.


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    #64
    cocoa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭cocoa


    errlloyd wrote: »
    You seem to think a college can't be ranking in any numerical value, so what would you have me base my decision on? The times has gone to a lot of effort to compile a perfectly good list taking in multiple factors, and a list Trinity scores clearly better on.

    Not only that, but Law in Trinity will contain only people (probably not including me) who score 550 or over, surrounded by that intelligence you will do better. And don't argue with me about the LC been a bad represent of intelligence, because on average its just not.

    No. I fully acknowledge that colleges can be and are ranked in a numerical way, I'm merely pointing out that the nature of this ranking does not have any bearing on quality of teaching, student support or life, and so has little or no relevance to an undergraduate course.

    Your point about points is valid, I wouldn't agree with it or follow it myself, but I see what you're getting at...

    To be honest I can see you've got your mind set on Law in Trinity, and that's fine, and it seems you have done research on more than just the rankings, but would strongly advise against anyone using the rankings as a reason for choosing a university undergrad degree...


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    #65
    ALincoln
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭ALincoln


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Lincoln Employer satisfaction is listed on that link too, its factored into the ranking. Trinity is 43 and UCD is 68, none other are on page.

    I think you guys need to stop kidding yourselves, Trinity is full of elitist fags (I know, like me) and that's true. The truth is while people who think they are elite go there people who think they are elite will come out, and generally do better.

    You seem to think a college can't be ranking in any numerical value, so what would you have me base my decision on? The times has gone to a lot of effort to compile a perfectly good list taking in multiple factors, and a list Trinity scores clearly better on.

    Not only that, but Law in Trinity will contain only people (probably not including me) who score 550 or over, surrounded by that intelligence you will do better. And don't argue with me about the LC been a bad represent of intelligence, because on average its just not.

    Would you rather I based this on campus
    UCD = 1960 architectural relic, with pond which test positive for malaria.
    DCU = I must confess I won't consider as its too far away
    DIT = If I wanted to get taught in a home, I would do an open university degree in my own home
    Maynooth = Its in Kildare...
    Galway = I wonder what it would look like if you didn't see it through beer goggles, I guess we will never know...
    Limerick = I prefer not to be in bullet trajectories
    Cork = Nice college nice campus, I live in Dublin though
    Trinity = Beautiful Campus (ok arts building looks a bit sketch) brilliant location.

    Or how about Alumni
    Nobel Prize Winners ?
    Poets ?
    I know Cowen went to UCD. Legend.

    You're going to say I am the one who is ignorant because I just blindly go to Trinity, but I at least acknowledge that my reasons are somewhat shallow, however better shallow reason to go to Trinity, than no reason to go to UCD.

    And believe me, its no prejudice, both my elder brothers graduated from UCD and are doing very very well for themselves. I wish I could be as successful, but Trinity is the place for me.

    To make an attempt at Law, you need to be able to write well in formal language and read dense text. You need to recall reams of case law and statute when it comes to exam time (or at least the bare essentials :p). You can not learn questions by theme (in the manner that everybody appeared to learn "deception" etc for this year's English) - courses are too broad, and for the most part, continunous assessment separates those with relevant ability from those who are good at sitting exams (people who scored totals such as 540 and 555 gained higher essay marks than those on 580ish in certain assignments on my course). So the conclusion to be drawn is that the LC is indicative of basic ability and intelligence, but only in a very minor way - you'll have to hone a whole new set of skills when you go to college. It's for the most part enjoyable however, and I'd wish you the best of luck! (And remember, Cambridge is always there for a masters. ;))

    Just a tip though, when something is listed as a contributory factor, it is generally not regarded as a determinative factor.


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    #66
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,604 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    ucd
    Hmm trust me I agree the LC is ****, but on average people who score >550 are smarter than people who score <550, however there are obviously people who score very low who have very high natural intelligence, and people who score very high who are just walking memories.

    I do think law should get an Lnat like the UK and Irish Universitties should start doing interviews.


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    #67
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    eoccork wrote: »
    I would have voted UCC:p
    Homicidal_jesus wrote: »
    well i would have picked ucc but not there:(
    It is now! ;)
    errlloyd wrote: »
    The times has gone to a lot of effort to compile a perfectly good list taking in multiple factors, and a list Trinity scores clearly better on.
    That's exactly it ... multiple factors ... covering a whole institution. And while I would quibble with some of their factors and how they measured them, nevertheless I would generally agree that Trinity is a fine University.

    However ... the reality is that it doesn't mean that Trinity is the best college for every single discipline, or every course, or indeed for every student.

    If someone is interested in a particular discipline, they should research how the degrees offered in THAT discipline in each college and indeed the particular departments are regarded in the general academic community, by prospective employers, etc. Trinity doesn't carry the flag among the Irish colleges for all disciplines ... in fact they would be regarded as well down the rankings in at least a couple I can think of. (And no, I'm not going to name them ... if I wanted to become the online version of a dartboard, I would pick an issue I care more about! :P).

    But Trinity is on the whole a very good college, and it certainly is the best known globally, for all sorts of historical reasons.

    And btw, you are right, their law courses are very well regarded, esp. around King's Inns. There's a bit of snobbishness in that, and an element of elite groups replicating themselves, but if Law is what you want, you have made a good decision.

    And I personally love the Trinity campus and ambience as well.
    errlloyd wrote: »
    Not only that, but Law in Trinity will contain only people (probably not including me) who score 550 or over, surrounded by that intelligence you will do better. And don't argue with me about the LC been a bad represent of intelligence, because on average its just not.
    Em ... in fact, it is, in many ways.

    Sure, reasonable intelligence is one factor required for a decent LC. Fairly narrow facets of intelligence though ... some day when you're in college, and want a change of pace, root out the work of Howard Gardner and Project Zero on multiple intelligences. Not that I would suggest it is the last word on the subject by any means, but I suspect it might make you think ... which is what a University education is supposed to do! :)

    The other main factors which generally lead to success in LC are hard work (obviously!) and an ability to memorise. Especially the latter ... more and more prep. for LC seems to be about grinds and notes and memorised essays etc. ... in particular I have seen so many comments on here in the last week or so about "I didn't get to use my essay on ____ that I had learned off!" That's not education, that's memorisation. We're reverting to Utilitarian models of education, which Dickens railed against in the 19th century, ffs!

    And that's ONE of the reasons why a lot of students find the jump to third level difficult, and why there is such a high drop-put rate in first year (there are several other reasons).

    Though even third level seems to have caught a mild dose of the memorisation virus over the last couple of decades. The ability to actually think and analyse and critique has been put on the back burner in a culture of commodification ... of education as of so many other things.

    Pick up to-day's (Saturday's) paper, you will see Tom Boland, CEO of the Higher Education Authority complaining of much the same issues re: both second and third level. He is simply echoing what many of us have been thinking and saying for years.
    errlloyd wrote: »
    Galway = I wonder what it would look like if you didn't see it through beer goggles, I guess we will never know...

    Limerick = I prefer not to be in bullet trajectories
    Leave it out, please.
    cocoa wrote: »
    ... but would strongly advise against anyone using the rankings as a reason for choosing a university undergrad degree...
    I would agree. No harm to be aware of it, but it should be a very small part of one's decision.


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    #68
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,604 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    ucd
    Sorry the jokes about Galway and Limerick were just to try and lighten the mood, the thread was getting a bit tense. I think we all agree that not everyone in Galway is an alcholic and that Limerick is 10 times safer than LA.

    As for the LC, even if its not smart people who get through, it is academics, and if they are hard workers all the better. It contributes to a working ethos.

    You're right Kings Inn is the only educational institute in Ireland snobbier than Trinity, and they use Trinity as their recruiting ground. (It pissed me off very much when the speaker at the Kings Inn open day tried to call their blatantly Neo Classical architecture Classical, **** off that was a Doric order column with an Ionic order base and a stupid Corinthian capital, if you think the Greeks built like that think again).

    And your defo right that if I was to take Engineering (now I haven't done much research on this but I think) I would go to UCD not trinity. I think nearly any computer based course (I did work exp in IBM this is what they said) is better in DCU and I know the Mathematics department in Maynooth is very highly rated.


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    #69
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Sorry the jokes about Galway and Limerick were just to try and lighten the mood ...
    Jokes, within reason, are ok ... hell, I suspect everyone around here could do with an occasional smile at the moment.

    Just maybe aim for funny? :p

    Or at least less interpretable as a cheap shot ...
    errlloyd wrote: »
    As for the LC, even if its not smart people who get through, it is academics, and if they are hard workers all the better. It contributes to a working ethos.
    Oh, in fairness, I wouldn't say that the smart people don't get through (what are you trying to do, get me beaten up?! :p).

    But often it's because they're smart enough to play the system as much as because they are academically bright.

    And yes, hard work will always pay off, at any point in the educational system or indeed in life.

    But please don't confuse academic brilliance with memorisation. Admittedly, in law, you will need to memorise a lot of stuff ... it's the nature of the law to have reams and reams of case law and precedent and so on which you must remember. But just remembering it is far from enough, especially in law. A person who can spout this act or that case verbatim from memory, but cannot analyse how it might be relevant or applicable would make a very valuable clerk, perhaps even a half-decent solicitor, but s/he certainly won't make a barrister.

    And that's even more true in many of the other disciplines. I know leading historians who have great trouble remembering dates. But they understand why things happened, and that's far more valuable in history and indeed for the present day than total recall for dates. I know that may sound strange to those who have just finished LC history, but that's part of my point about the preoccupation in LC with memorising facts and figures rather than fostering a critical frame of mind and the ability to actually think.

    I remember an old history professor of my own forcefully pointing out to us that an eidetic memory for facts and figures did not a historian make. Far more important are (a) knowing how and where to find the relevant information; (b) knowing what it means when you've found it. The books will still be on the shelves; they can still be consulted at need. This modern world of ours is information-heavy (partly due to the 'net) and judgement-light. Far too many people accept uncritically the information which is ladled into them from the web; from the media; in the classroom. Or they fly to the opposite extreme, and reject anything that does not fit with their own world-view, without researching or interrogating or analysing the available facts, indeed often wholly ignoring them, supremely self-confident in their own personal omniscience and wisdom ... the cult of the individual run riot!

    If, as educators, we don't equip our students with the ability to think critically, we are doing them a great disservice; we certainly can't claim to be providing them with an education!

    Now ... getting off my rantmobile and back on topic ... why is this relevant to this thread?

    Simply this ... if you are still finalising in your own mind where you want to go for third level, choose a college and department with a reputation for insisting you actually think for yourself.

    You will emerge with a far better education, and with a far greater ability to cope with the real world, especially in the era which we live in, which is one of rapid and constant change ... and that is about the only thing which isn't going to change!! ;)


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    #70
    WolfForager
    Registered Users Posts: 4,532 ✭✭✭WolfForager


    ul
    errlloyd wrote: »
    DIT = If I wanted to get taught in a home, I would do an open university degree in my own home


    Heh? That's hardly fair! DIT is THE best uni in Ireland for Engineering, it's engineering degress are sought after more than degrees from TCD anyway.


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    #71
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ucd
    Great posts Randy.

    Personally, I'm torn between Trinity and NUIM for maths. From what I've been told, Maynooth has the best maths. department in Ireland (and their degree is only 3 years long), and that should be the deciding factor, really. But, I find myself leaning for Trinity (which has the second best maths. degree, from what I've been told) because it's in the heart of Dublin. I can't imagine myself living in Maynooth, and although it has the better degree, that's why I'm going to pick Trinity.


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    #72
    almostnever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭almostnever


    ucd
    TCD. I can only realistically commute to there or DCU,and only TCD offers a Law degree so it's all good. I also want to continue learning a bit of Irish and they run free classes...I'd hardly say no :P


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    #73
    xOxSinéadxOx
    Registered Users Posts: 2,604 ✭✭✭xOxSinéadxOx


    galway
    UCD
    TCD
    Maynooth

    dublin colleges are nearest to me and they had the courses I would like to do


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    #74
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,604 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    ucd
    Being a solicitor is about knowing law, being a barrister is about applying law your know to suit your situation.

    BTW +1 on Maynooth having a good maths department, I have a few friends on the Maths Olympiad team who like it there, (but are going to Trinity cause its closer to home :S)

    If every history teacher taught like that our entire paper would be document questions.


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    #75
    Piste
    Registered Users Posts: 11,440 ✭✭✭✭Piste


    ucd
    TCD for a few reasons

    -It's in the centre of the city
    -It's well regarded internationally. A lot of people abroad would have heard of Trinity, much fewer would have heard of UCD or DCU, so possibilities for working/studying abroad are opened up.
    -A lot of my friends are there
    -My boyfriend would disown me if I went to UCD :(
    -I like the feel of the place


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    #76
    SarcasticFairy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭SarcasticFairy


    ucd
    TCD is first, because:
    -It would take faaaar too long to get anywhere else, especially when you take into account I'd have to do it twice everyday. It would slowly kill me :p
    -I've always adored the Trinity campus.
    -One of the best libraries in Ireland (also want to do law...)

    They're the main reasons, really.

    @Almostnever You know DCU have a new law course this year. It's something like Law and Society, or something. :)


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    #77
    Stev_o
    Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Stev_o


    dcu
    UCD-For Physiotherapy
    DCU-For Computer Applications


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    #78
    almostnever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭almostnever


    ucd
    Oh,and I fogot the most important reason I want to do Law in TCD:rolleyes: In 4th year,an optional module is Human Rights,something I eventually want to go into/persue :D And the library is pretty swaying too,in all fairness.

    @sarcasticfairy-I'll have to have a look into that,thank you! (:


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    #79
    christina_x
    Registered Users Posts: 701 ✭✭✭christina_x


    local institute dkit, sligo, cork and the like
    poisonated wrote: »
    1)

    I want to go to Galway....Its a great city!:D

    Agree ^^
    Dont know why i like it.. but i do. I just like the atmosphere in the place.. its relaxed or.. something! I cant quite put my finger on it but...!:rolleyes:


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    #80
    Homicidal_jesus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 529 ✭✭✭Homicidal_jesus


    UCC--biological and chemical sciences!!!


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    #81
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    -JammyDodger- wrote: »
    But, I find myself leaning for Trinity (which has the second best maths. degree, from what I've been told) because it's in the heart of Dublin. I can't imagine myself living in Maynooth, and although it has the better degree, that's why I'm going to pick Trinity.
    Feeling that you will like / enjoy your college is important too.

    It shouldn't be the core factor in making your choice, which some people make it, but it is a valid factor.

    If you are contented, you're far more likely to settle in and do well.
    errlloyd wrote: »
    If every history teacher taught like that our entire paper would be document questions.
    Or at least questions which challenge you to think as much as to remember ... and then the really intelligent people who can think on the hoof would definitely come out on top.

    Plus people would find it far easier to make the transition to History at third level.
    christina_x wrote: »
    Agree ^^
    Dont know why i like it.. but i do. I just like the atmosphere in the place.. its relaxed or.. something! I cant quite put my finger on it but...!:rolleyes:
    You're right.

    Make sure as well though that the course you want there ticks all the other boxes as well.

    It probably will ... in my experience, Galway is often under-valued as a University. Partly for geographical / historical reasons, possibly; partly I think because Galway as a city is seen as a "party town" ... which isn't entirely untrue, in fairness, but it can lead people to believe that that's the only reason why people head to University there. :)


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    #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't go to TCD but I must say I don't really like it. The only thing I like about it is the fact that it is Irelands most prestigious university. What I don't like about it is -it's in the middle of a busy city, there seems to be very creepy people there anytime I've been, most of the buildings are old (although that new-ish NanoScience Building is cool), more importantly, there are only about three courses that interest me slightly and it seems to be obsessed with making it's courses available to people with 'disadvantaged backgrounds'. If I had to pick between TCD and UCD, I'd pick UCD. It has really good and relevant courses and the campus is in a nice suburban area. I think the whole college is organised well -it's management are definately on the ball.


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    #83
    internetaddict
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭internetaddict


    galway
    Was torn between tcd and nuim but think ive decided on maynooth because..

    1.Personally I think it's ridiculous that eng and fr in tcd is 520 points whereas you can do eng, fr and law in nuim for 355. I could always do a postgrad in tcd later on.

    2. The train station's only 20mins away and it will only take about 20minutes longer to get there because trains are generally more reliable than buses.(I also really like trains)

    3. Degree is only 3 years which means if I go to France for a year it's only 4 years total. Also you don't have to decide on subjects until september.

    4. Everyone I've talked to who's gone there loved it and sang its praises(sometimes literally)

    5. I live in Dublin so it'll be nice to have a change, I'd rather not get sick of town.

    6. Not such a big college, not so many students= more attention. I hope.


    I'm going to the university open day and then making the final decision


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    #84
    Dante
    Registered Users Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭Dante


    ucd
    Mr.S wrote: »
    Exactly the same as me:)!

    What do you think the points are going to be for TCD?

    Hmmm I dunno, I'm hoping its around 400 although its probably way more! :( I only put it down in hope!
    What bout you???


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    #85
    celtic723
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭celtic723


    ul
    internetaddict wrote: »
    Was torn between tcd and nuim but think ive decided on maynooth because..

    1.Personally I think it's ridiculous that eng and fr in tcd is 520 points whereas you can do eng, fr and law in nuim for 355. I could always do a postgrad in tcd later on.

    2. The train station's only 20mins away and it will only take about 20minutes longer to get there because trains are generally more reliable than buses.(I also really like trains)

    3. Degree is only 3 years which means if I go to France for a year it's only 4 years total. Also you don't have to decide on subjects until september.

    4. Everyone I've talked to who's gone there loved it and sang its praises(sometimes literally)

    5. I live in Dublin so it'll be nice to have a change, I'd rather not get sick of town.

    6. Not such a big college, not so many students= more attention. I hope.


    I'm going to the university open day and then making the final decision

    maynooth's the best place to live. i was nearly going to choose it because i live here but then i thought nah i best choose my course more than my preferred place to live. Afterall it's the course that you will use the rest of your life not the place you live in. Nightlife's brilliant too.:)


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    #86
    Harpie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 277 ✭✭Harpie


    errlloyd wrote: »
    the only name that's not a ****ing acronym (yes that's important to me). Not only that but your argument for any other college is completely invalid. Colleges may value the degree more, but for Law its still the TCD agree, I like it because its got a large close student body and lastly a lot of my friends are going .

    Contradiction?


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    #87
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,604 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    ucd
    No cause no one calls its TCD aloud.


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    #88
    Harpie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 277 ✭✭Harpie


    errlloyd wrote: »
    No cause no one calls its TCD aloud.

    No-one says NUIM or NUIG aloud either, but they're still acronyms. Don't think how the name of the college is depicted on paper or said aloud warrants snobbery tbh.


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    #89
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,604 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    ucd
    Harpie wrote: »
    Contradiction?
    Harpie wrote: »
    No-one says NUIM or NUIG aloud either, but they're still acronyms. Don't think how the name of the college is depicted on paper or said aloud warrants snobbery tbh.


    Hmm, I guess my honesty isn't going down too well. Truth is I will always think Yale sounds like a better college than UCLA, in reality the opposite is quite possibly true.

    The one exception the acronym rule is of course MIT, but that college is like the coolest place on earth.


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    #90
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ucd
    Whether a college's name is abbreviated to an acronym or not really shouldn't play any part in a student's decision to go (or not to go) there. It shouldn't be a factor whatsoever. It really is the most pathetic factor on deciding which college to go to that I've ever heard of.


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    #91
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,604 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    ucd
    -JammyDodger- wrote: »
    Whether a college's name is abbreviated to an acronym or not really shouldn't play any part in a student's decision to go (or not to go) there. It shouldn't be a factor whatsoever. It really is the most pathetic factor on deciding which college to go to that I've ever heard of.


    Hmm how prestigious a college is, is important. To me anyway, I think it is to everyone, just some people won't admit it. Like we all want to go to Cambridge or Harvard deep down.

    Obviously the presence of an acronym doesn't make it less prestigious, I have already mentioned MIT. But in general it seems all the true ivy league have names. (Ok so I am shallow)


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