You're fat, and it's your own fault

floggg · 11-06-2009 11:50PM

Hanley wrote: »

The whole concept of externality charges come into play here.... Fat people place a burden on society over and above the burden they place on themselves, so they should be "charged" for it. Like most economic theories it's nice, but not workable.

Taxing certain foodstuffs would probably be the only reasonable way to enforce it I guess??

I understand the complexities involved as well as the next - not only is it difficult from an economic perspective, it would be legally impossible to apply.

I didn't think the idea merited that sort of in depth analysis though. As i said, applying that sort of logic, promiscous people are at greater risk of catching and spreading STD's, and thereby place a burden on society over and above themselves, so following that logic, should also be taxed extra. but that would be stupid, right?

Hanley · 11-06-2009 11:53PM

floggg wrote: »

I understand the complexities involved as good as the next - not only is it difficult from an economic perspective, it would be legally impossible to apply.

I didn't think the idea merited that sort of in depth analysis though. As i said, applying that sort of logic, promiscous people are at greater risk of catching and spreading STD's, and thereby place a burden on society over and above themselves, so following that logic, should also be taxed extra. but that would be stupid, right?

Of course it'd be stupid!! A lot of economic theory is!!

cardio,shoot me · 11-06-2009 11:56PM

floggg wrote: »

I also agree that it shouldn't be acceptable to make fun of fat people (Cardio - i'm looking at you with those pics of hanley) - it happened to me as a kid and it had a terrible effect on me. but that doesn't mean we should create a culture of tolerance for being overweight/unhealthy either. being overweight is bad for you for so many reasons, and is easily rectfied, so there really is n excuse. and i think i am well qualified to make that statement. i know i will always have to work at my weight, but i also know its entirely within my own control.

Hey i used to be fat too, and hanley knows it was only in jest :P

floggg · 11-06-2009 11:58PM

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

Hey i used to be fat too, and hanley knows it was only in jest :P

Fat b@stard!:D

itsallaboutheL · 12-06-2009 12:02AM

floggg wrote: »

Fat b@stard!:D

And i think i started that!! and i too became ridiculously fat when i stopped playing rugby!! or at least when i stopped playin at a decent level

injured365 · 12-06-2009 06:10PM

Fat phobia?, fat discrimination?, fat hatred? What a load of BS!! If people dont smoke because its a health risk, the same logic would prove people shouldnt have excessive amounts of fat because its a health risk.

I personnally can't stand people who defend those that are over-fat. Where some leniency may be applied due to certain health issues, those that allow themelves to become fat and blame everyone and everything except themselves should not be treated with love and hugs! People addicted to gambling or drugs or alcohol dont get over there issues without recognising a fault in their behaviour. If the issue is, at the basic level, energy expenditure versus energy intake only one person can really control enerygy intake.

Odysseus · 12-06-2009 10:27PM

To be fair around around the idea of psychological causation there are similiar themes running through certain types of addictions and eating disorders in relation to what are considered addictive behaviours and thought processes. However, there is also the personal responsibilitly side of things. I seen alot of people over the years address various "disorders".

In most cases both areas need to be addressed, I have never seen anyone recover without addressing the psych issues, but I have never seen anyone address their psych issues without taking personal responsibility.

Hanley · 13-06-2009 12:34AM

Odysseus wrote: »

To be fair around around the idea of psychological causation there are similiar themes running through certain types of addictions and eating disorders in relation to what are considered addictive behaviours and thought processes. However, there is also the personal responsibilitly side of things. I seen alot of people over the years address various "disorders".

In most cases both areas need to be addressed, I have never seen anyone recover without addressing the psych issues, but I have never seen anyone address their psych issues without taking personal responsibility.

AFAIK you're involved in the industry right? Would you say in the last 5-10 years these "disorders" have become more common....? Ya know, as an excuse for not taking personal responsibility and as a cop out?

amacachi · 13-06-2009 12:35AM

Hanley wrote: »

AFAIK you're involved in the industry right? Would you say in the last 5-10 years these "disorders" have become more common....? Ya know, as an excuse for not taking personal responsibility and as a cop out?

Sshhhhh. People will lose jobs if that kind of thinking spreads.

Odysseus · 13-06-2009 11:37AM

Hanley wrote: »

AFAIK you're involved in the industry right? Would you say in the last 5-10 years these "disorders" have become more common....? Ya know, as an excuse for not taking personal responsibility and as a cop out?

To be fair I wouldn't fully agree with your statement, however, that's not saying that there maybe some truth in too. About 15 years ago private treatment centres here started to treat various eating disorders here in Ireland. I think it was about 10 years ago those motivational clinics started up here, I remember looking at one of their job descriptions when they first opened.

Prioir to that their was treatment through OA and maybe a private psych clinic. I maybe the point that there can be similiarities between eating disorders and various addictions. They are plan to see when you work with people, however, alot of this thinking has come from the states. I don't necessarily veiw that as such, the same with this notion of sexual addiction. However, whether I agree with them being classed as addictions or not does not mean this conditions does not exist.

As to whether this is used as a cop out or not, people in such positions are gernerally in some form of psychological pain, however, change may seeem to be too difficult. If somebody asks my opinion outside of a session about being over weight I'm prone to go with the "all they need is a good kick up the hole" viewpoint.

However, this does not take into account the reasons behind the issue in the first place. I personally believe that most people can change their lives, how ever, the "good kick" method fails to take into account what got them there in the first place. Some people may need lots of time and help to change, some may never change due to their own subjective reasons and maybe their environment. Some may use the above as a reason not to change.

So yes I think it can be used as a cop out, but the one think I is important to remember is here is at the end of the day on an individual basis we never know the reason behind a persons excessive eating. A more dramatic example would be this being associated to some experiencing abuse as a child, then we wade in with the "good kick" advice. If a person is not taking personal responsibility is it because the refuse or that maybe they can't?

floggg · 13-06-2009 11:46AM

I would actually like to say that i do exclude recognised eating disorders such as aneorexia and bulemia from my above comments, although AFAIK sufferers do not tend to be overweight. In those cases, there are genuine psychological conditions.

Similarly, in the child abuse example, although i would imagine over weighting would only be one relatively minor way in which the consequences of same would manifest itself.

In those cases, being overweight is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. i think they are in an entirely different category.

Odysseus · 13-06-2009 12:53PM

floggg wrote: »

I would actually like to say that i do exclude recognised eating disorders such as aneorexia and bulemia from my above comments, although AFAIK sufferers do not tend to be overweight. In those cases, there are genuine psychological conditions.

Similarly, in the child abuse example, although i would imagine over weighting would only be one relatively minor way in which the consequences of same would manifest itself.

In those cases, being overweight is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. i think they are in an entirely different category.

I take your point floggg, but I suppose its a case of coming at it from different view-points. I would say that in most cases the over eating is a symptom of some psychological, in the same way that it can be applied to my ultra running.

There can be a difficultly here now between general and the specific, in this case said my above statement the over eating as a symptom, and the specific being the reason/causative experience of this behavioiur.

With some cases boot-camp training like "move it, move it, move it" [add the word fattie if desired] can deal with the issue. My point I supppose it that in most cases [my opinoin] there can be a psych issue behind the behaviour. In some cases the person may not have the psych resources to address the problem, and may never.

I suppose I'm just putting forward the notion of looking at it from a different perspective, and maybe a bit more understanding. With saying that I can be a very judgemental person around this issue in my personal life, however, I just try not to judge too harshly if you get my point. Hopefully that makes sense.

cjbh · 13-06-2009 12:57PM

is this why?

floggg · 13-06-2009 01:13PM

Odysseus wrote: »

I take your point floggg, but I suppose its a case of coming at it from different view-points. I would say that in most cases the over eating is a symptom of some psychological, in the same way that it can be applied to my ultra running.

There can be a difficultly here now between general and the specific, in this case said my above statement the over eating as a symptom, and the specific being the reason/causative experience of this behavioiur.

With some cases boot-camp training like "move it, move it, move it" [add the word fattie if desired] can deal with the issue. My point I supppose it that in most cases [my opinoin] there can be a psych issue behind the behaviour. In some cases the person may not have the psych resources to address the problem, and may never.

I suppose I'm just putting forward the notion of looking at it from a different perspective, and maybe a bit more understanding. With saying that I can be a very judgemental person around this issue in my personal life, however, I just try not to judge too harshly if you get my point. Hopefully that makes sense.

I do understand your point, and as i rule, i never try to deal in absolutes, because there will always be exceptions to every rule.

However, i would disagree with your use of the word "most" - in my opinion, its the minority of people who have any "real" psychological reasons for being overweight, whereas the rest just have ****ty eating habits.

If you look at all the threads started on here about how to lose weight, the first thing we always ask is about diet, and in many cases we wither get

(a) i eat pretty healthy, i just can't lose the weight, only to discover that their vision of healthy is anything but; or
(b) i know i eat crap, but i hate vegetables/i love to drink to much/my mother/work does all my cooking so i have no choice.

That doesn't sound to me like somebody who over eats to overcome so deep psychological trauma, its sounds like people who are uneducated on food and nutrition and/or who are unwilling to make any sacifice to achieve their goals.

I am also assuming when you refer to psychological reasons, you are referring to something pretty serious, like the abuse cases, not something which is relatively trivial. E.g. people who eat "because of low self esteem" - they don't eat because of low self esteem, they have low self esteem because they eat.

floggg · 13-06-2009 01:15PM

cjbh wrote: »

is this why?

I think theis proves my point - this kid doesn't have a psychological disorder, he has bad/american parents!

cjbh · 13-06-2009 01:18PM

in all seriousness though, i do symapthise with (some) overweight people.
OK some are just lazy (i could easily pile on a stone or two if i gave in to all my cravings all the time and never worked out)
but...
i do think some have a 'disposition' of sorts to being overweight
specifically, they have bigger appetites than others
i'm kind of naturally slim (as in, i don't make a HUGE effort to stay slim, although i do look after myself). but i can't really take credit for this - i have noticed that i just have a smaller appetite than others. and i don't think you can change your appetite size.
whether size of appetite is inherited, or learned in the early childhood, i think it is fixed.
so for some people, battling against a big appetite must seem like torture. it's like they are hungry all the time.

i also believe many of us natural body 'set weights', which is where your body strives to maintain a constant, arbitrary weight. for a lot of us, this 'set point' will be a healthy weight, but for others, it will be underweight or overweight.

PERSONAL EXPERIENCE: a few years back i lost 2 stone (that i didn't really need to lose). my BMI at that point was about 20 (quite low). i went from being generally indifferent to food, to being absolutely RAVENOUS all the time and totally OBSESSED with food. i was never satisfied after a meal and even ate an ENTIRE box of shredded wheat (yes, shredded wheat!) at one setting. since then i have gone back to my normal weight and appetite is regulated once again.

my point: we are not as in control of our bodies as we like to think. some people, i believe, are destined to be overweight to some degree. in the same i could never maintain that weight loss that i had (not that i would want to), i imagine that many overweight people would also struggle the same way.

Odysseus · 13-06-2009 01:18PM

Actually child abuse came to terms when I seen that pic. But would you consider a psych issue with the parents as influencing this behaviour? With saying that its also a cultural issue as well which is just a larger scale of group psychology.

cjbh · 13-06-2009 01:47PM

Odysseus wrote: »

Actually child abuse came to terms when I seen that pic. But would you consider a psych issue with the parents as influencing this behaviour? With saying that its also a cultural issue as well which is just a larger scale of group psychology.

i think 'child abuse' is a bit harsh. more than likely, the kid's parents are obese themselves, and they just don't know any other way

a lot of parents of fat kids say the reason the give their kid all this food, is because the kid demands it. it must be very hard to deny your kid all the time, it is a parent's instinct to keep their child well fed.

floggg · 13-06-2009 01:48PM

Odysseus wrote: »

Actually child abuse came to terms when I seen that pic. But would you consider a psych issue with the parents as influencing this behaviour? With saying that its also a cultural issue as well which is just a larger scale of group psychology.

Yes, i agree, it is a form of child abuse, but not obviously as traumatising as other forms of physical/sexual mental abuse.

And i do also agree that the parents have a strong influence of the child, which will subconscioulsy affect the childs mental developments, and will ultimately lead to the development of certain habits/characterisitics in the child as a result, one of which is highly likley to be over eating and lack of knowledge about fitness/health, leading to poor health and potetnially obesity.

I guess where we differ so is really the labels. I agree, this is all psychological, in that it is ovbiously related to the mind of the individual. However, i would tend to see that as bad "habits" as such more than psychological issues, although i think you would view them as one in the same. I guess i am applying laymans terms to these things.

My point ultimately is that these are all things which are person can easily rectify once he makes a conscious decision to do so, and is willing to address his own habits/traits and personal responsibility. I would differentiate that from what a lay person would term psychological issues, such as those brought on by abuse, trauma, insufficient social development etc, which are more deep rooted and difficult to overcome on ones own.

amacachi · 13-06-2009 02:03PM

cjbh wrote: »

i think 'child abuse' is a bit harsh. more than likely, the kid's parents are obese themselves, and they just don't know any other way

a lot of parents of fat kids say the reason the give their kid all this food, is because the kid demands it. it must be very hard to deny your kid all the time, it is a parent's instinct to keep their child well fed.

They only demand it because they're used to it, and used to getting their own way.

floggg · 13-06-2009 02:13PM

cjbh wrote: »

in all seriousness though, i do symapthise with (some) overweight people.
OK some are just lazy (i could easily pile on a stone or two if i gave in to all my cravings all the time and never worked out)
but...
i do think some have a 'disposition' of sorts to being overweight
specifically, they have bigger appetites than others
i'm kind of naturally slim (as in, i don't make a HUGE effort to stay slim, although i do look after myself). but i can't really take credit for this - i have noticed that i just have a smaller appetite than others. and i don't think you can change your appetite size.
whether size of appetite is inherited, or learned in the early childhood, i think it is fixed.
so for some people, battling against a big appetite must seem like torture. it's like they are hungry all the time.i also believe many of us natural body 'set weights', which is where your body strives to maintain a constant, arbitrary weight. for a lot of us, this 'set point' will be a healthy weight, but for others, it will be underweight or overweight.

PERSONAL EXPERIENCE: a few years back i lost 2 stone (that i didn't really need to lose). my BMI at that point was about 20 (quite low). i went from being generally indifferent to food, to being absolutely RAVENOUS all the time and totally OBSESSED with food. i was never satisfied after a meal and even ate an ENTIRE box of shredded wheat (yes, shredded wheat!) at one setting. since then i have gone back to my normal weight and appetite is regulated once again.

my point: we are not as in control of our bodies as we like to think. some people, i believe, are destined to be overweight to some degree. in the same i could never maintain that weight loss that i had (not that i would want to), i imagine that many overweight people would also struggle the same way.

While i do agree that somepeople, myself included do seem to be more prone to weight gain, and have a harder time shifting it, i do not think that is an excuse. It is about educating yourself about nutrition and dietary needs, identfying any specific difficulties you have, and addressing them.

I do tend to gain weight easier than some, but that doesn't mean i have to starve myself. its just a matter of eating smart, eating healthy, avoiding carbs as much as possible, and exercising regularly. I have lost a lot of weight this way, and i didn't find it particularly difficult once i got smart about it - i didn't starve myself, and i did allow myself the odd treat along the way. I don't intend to ever put it back on either, and confident i won't either.

As for appetite, mine has actually reduced a lot. Again, its about eating smart. I used to eat three big meals a day and that wass it, and could put away a lot of food at dinner time.

However, again once i educated myself to nutrition (and i am talking a basic education, i still don't get too hung up on macrnutrition), i moved to 5 - 6 small, regular meals, and now my appetite has significantly reduced. I am quite content with eating much smaller meals. Your stomach adapts to your eating habits, and shrinks and expands as needed.

Whereas a few years ago, i could easily eat a large dominos all by my lonely, i wouldn't want to eat more than half now, or in chippers, i would now only get just a burger, whereas before i would go for the super size meal.

Sure, i could probably still put them away in one siting, but i don't have any desire to (actually i have little desire for take-away at all anymore, except Diep noodles!). Point is appetites do change.

cjbh wrote: »

cjbh wrote: »

i think 'child abuse' is a bit harsh. more than likely, the kid's parents are obese themselves, and they just don't know any other way

a lot of parents of fat kids say the reason the give their kid all this food, is because the kid demands it. it must be very hard to deny your kid all the time, it is a parent's instinct to keep their child well fed.

In fairness, it is a form of abuse, in that it is very detrimental to the childs health and future social development. about the only people other than the person themselves who i would hold responsible for somebody being overweight is their parents. its the parents job to teach them about healthty eating.

Everybody knows a child that size is unhealthy, so the parents should make it their business to educate themselves.

And as for giving into demands, those parents should be slapped. its a whole nother thread, in a whole nother forum, but i think those parents who aren't strong enough to stand up to their children and do what is right by the child, rather than what a 5 year old thinks he wants are almost as bad as parents who neglect the child. that may sound harsh, but parenting standards have really gone to **** in the world today. in our parents day, the wouldn't dream of demanding stuff, and they turned out alright. now society tells us to give our children what the want and suddenly Paris ****ing Hilton is apparently something to aspire to these days!

Children do not know what is best for them, the parents should. its definitely a case of being cruel to be kind sometimes, and i would rather have my child be upset he didn't get a happy meal than grow up to be a spoilt brat with a heart problem at 21.

floggg · 13-06-2009 10:13PM

In light of the above, i thought i should post the below from Eileen G in her "well" thread, as a good example of how parents can and should influence their child's eating habits

EileenG wrote: »

My family are quite proud of having a "strong" mother. Occasionally, I'm told to wear a tank top to school things to show off my muscles. More often, they tell me not to wear those awful cycling leggings where their friends might see me. The whole family skis, and the children all do tae kwon do and are good.

I cook mostly low carb, but there is higher carb food available it they want it. They are all pretty knowledgable about nutrition. One of them them told her teacher the flaws in the food pyramid, and why you should eat a protein meal after working out.

O.P.H · 14-06-2009 01:40AM

Oh Jesus she's annoying and a friggin idiot. I would'nt even know where to start. Being fat is not ok, if you think it is you’re either retarded or lying to protect your fat ass. If a parent dosen’t monitor their kids to prevent them from getting fat, I look at this as disgusting, abusive parenting and I reckon the majority of a obese people out there can completely blame their parents, maybe that’s an exaggeration. Any fat people out there getting involved in arguments about being fat or if being fats it ok or if its glandular etc....they are just wasting precious time they could be spending on a treadmill, I don't car what ya say, they have no argument. As you can see it pisses me off when they do argue.

You're fat, and it's your own fault

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