You're fat, and it's your own fault

Hanley

Good vid!!

http://tvnz.co.nz/close-up/being-fat-your-own-fault-2778376/video

Khannie

Interesting debate. Nice that they were polite and had a proper debate about it. I found her a little bit irritating. It's very hard to argue with basic thermodynamics.

Interesting that he used "over fat" instead of "over weight".

kevpants

I thought this was another thread about me...

Good interview, shame it was so short. I disagree with the lady but I thought she came across really well. I thought the professor really addressed it simply and hit the nail on the head, liked the use of the term "over fat" rather than just "big" which the interviewer seemed intent on using.

The female doctor didn't seem to have any comeback but tried to divert the conversation onto the subject of persecuting fat people, which wasn't the professors intention. She didn't seem to give an alternative viewpoint to the professor's that if you're fat you've just taken in too much energy and now you're storing it.

itsallaboutheL

kevpants wrote: »

I thought this was another thread about me...

Good interview, shame it was so short. I disagree with the lady but I thought she came across really well. I thought the professor really addressed it simply and hit the nail on the head, liked the use of the term "over fat" rather than just "big" which the interviewer seemed intent on using.

The female doctor didn't seem to have any comeback but tried to divert the conversation onto the subject of persecuting fat people, which wasn't the professors intention. She didn't seem to give an alternative viewpoint to the professor's that if you're fat you've just taken in too much energy and now you're storing it.

+1

I actually thought it was one a bout me!!

the drifter

i knew it wasnt about me :P

ill listen to this later...stupid job

celestial

These kind of interviews are pretty annoying in fairness!

They were trying to have an intelligent debate but she didn't have the backbone to come out and say yes being fat is detrimental. If she had admitted that, then saying that being fat is not the whole story when it comes to health/wellbeing (which is very true) would have sounded a lot more compelling and maybe there could have been a proper discussion.

cmyk

I wouldn't really have classified this as a debate either.

She lost me with her opening line to be honest, "He's making an assumption that fat or being fat is unhealthy is a point I would disagree with." and her inability to provide any evidence to support this.

mloc

Like the majority of over-fat individuals, that woman was blinded by her own self-imposed ignorance.

I really admire the professor for his honest, accurate and clear portrayal of the causes and effects of obesity, particularly his discrimenation between over-fat and over-weight.

Hanley

I wonder what she's a Dr. in anyway....

Hail 2 Da Chimp

Hanley wrote: »

I wonder what she's a Dr. in anyway....

Pies!


But in all seriousness, I think it's a subject way too many people tippy-toe around and it was nice to hear some straight talking.

amacachi

Hail 2 Da Chimp wrote: »

I think it's a subject way too many people tippy-toe around and it was nice to hear some straight talking.

Takes a while! AHAHA.

What annoys me is most fat people aren't all that worried about it, and don't blame their genetics or any other BS reasons, but the ones who do are the ones TV etc. pick to talk to.

floggg

Is she actually a fat advocate? thats almost as dumb as the paeodophile rights group that was set up in Sweden.

She actually used the word "fat-phobia." Are we going to now have fat pride marches! I do not want to live in such a world!

Kev M

Difficult topic because nobody wants to insult anyone.

She had nothing worth saying. Being fat = Eating too much of the wrong stuff... easy as.
"Oh well there are other factors to consider and there are studies that show...."
There are other factors e.g insulin sensitivity being a huge one in my mind, but that can easily be worked around. If you look hard enough you can find a "study" to prove ANYTHING.

That American program The Biggest Loser is pretty good, they have some morbidly obese guys 400lbs+ losing 30lbs+ a week, through hard training and controlled diet. It's actually really impressive.

That old professor knows the deal!!

RacoonQueen

"...not wearing a seatbelt is a risk factor to health"

What?

podge57

i was watching Xpose the other night (dont judge me!) and they had an ex-model on, who is now pretty much obese

she was talking about how much happier she was, and basically said women shouldnt worry about their size, as if wanting to be in some sort of decent physical shape is a disorder. Obviously some people take it too far, but she was making a ridiculous arguement

i wish they had someone on telling her she will probably die considerably earlier than a healthy person

rubadub

Hanley wrote: »

I wonder what she's a Dr. in anyway....

Certainly not physics!

It's very hard to argue with basic thermodynamics.

She managed it, which is laughable to many but some believe that crap. It is a simple energy balance, and should be simplified to that. She was saying people have different expenditures so it is much more complicated than "simply calories in and calories out". It is not complicated at all, if you get a new fuel efficient car and put too much petrol in it will overflow so you adjust accordingly. If you are on medication, getting older, have your legs amputated, then you adjust your calorie intake accordingly. If you get thinner start eating more and vice versa.

"do you accept that, that if you eat less you won't be the same size"
"no actually I don't".

oh dear...

itsallaboutheL

podge57 wrote: »

i was watching Xpose the other night (dont judge me!) and they had an ex-model on, who is now pretty much obese

she was talking about how much happier she was, and basically said women shouldnt worry about their size, as if wanting to be in some sort of decent physical shape is a disorder. Obviously some people take it too far, but she was making a ridiculous arguement

i wish they had someone on telling her she will probably die considerably earlier than a healthy person

ahem *cough cough* ghey

podge57

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

ahem *cough cough* ghey

i said dont judge!!

it was on already and i was too lazy to get up and change the channel

thats my story, and im sticking to it...

floggg

RacoonQueen wrote: »

"...not wearing a seatbelt is a risk factor to health"

What?

The retarded thing is, she said that being fat is a risk to health in the sasme way as not wearing seat belts, smoking, drinking etc - all things which we are actively encouraged not to do! why should being fat be any different!

floggg

podge57 wrote: »

i was watching Xpose the other night (dont judge me!)

Consider yourself judged.

I was at least expecting a decent excuse, like a hormonal other half or something!

TheInquisitor

Fatness should never become "OK". Higher taxes for fat people so they can pay for their increased risk of related diseases!

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055577634

RealEstateKing

How little pity there is for fat people. We have all learned to have more enlightened attitudes to Alcholism, Depression, and drug addiction over the years, but not obesity.

Most people who are seriously overweight deperately want to lose wight and many are trying all the time to do so, and some succeed some dont.

I genuinely beleive that obesity is the result of a psychological emptiness in much the same way that alchohol/drug addiction is. Obese people are not simply weak-willed lazy ****ers who cant be arsed to lose weight. They more often than not are people who are unhappy at some basic level, and have entered nto a bad relationship with food as a result, in much the same way alchohlics and drug addicts are.

They deserve all the help they can get. Its easy for people who have never stuggled with their weight to dismiss it all as laziness, and its to a certain extent understandable. But as anyone who has ever been addicted to anything knows, giving up is not usually that simple. A person who has never smoked can say "Well jesus, why dont you just give them up for **** sake?' Anybody whos ever been a smoker knows that its not quite as easy as that. Same is true with food, except that losing weight is far harder than giving up cigarettes or alcohol.

Secondly, though Genetics are not the entire cause, there are definitely genetic elements in the size of human beings: Some people are naturaly skinny, like my friend, and no matter what they eat/do, they stay that way: Sometimes to their annoyance. My skinny friend eats a full Irish every day, Drinks 4 pints every night, Pizzas for dinner, Chips for lunch and does no excercise, and he's as thin as a rake. I have to keep to a very strict diet or i'll be overweight in seconds. I cycle 100 miles a week and dont drink and Im still a couple of stone heavier than him.

This doesnt remove personal responsibility from it of course, but the sight of naturally skinny people getting a kick out of laughing at fat people's inferiority is nauseating to me. Being fat is no fun, and you need all the help , support and TLC you can get to lose that weight. and its ****ing hard. The last thing you need is people who've never had to struggle with their weight scoring points off you.

King of Kings

<snip>

Hanley

podge57 wrote: »

i was watching Xpose the other night (dont judge me!) and they had an ex-model on, who is now pretty much obese

she was talking about how much happier she was, and basically said women shouldnt worry about their size, as if wanting to be in some sort of decent physical shape is a disorder. Obviously some people take it too far, but she was making a ridiculous arguement

i wish they had someone on telling her she will probably die considerably earlier than a healthy person

Amanda Brunker by any chance?? Such a tit.... one month she's standing on her box telling the (sunday) world how she loves having her curves, how she's a real woman cos of it, how she pitys the models etc.... and the next she's out with her "new and improved" slender figure, which she has turned into a book or DVD or some sh!te.

RealEstateKing wrote: »

How little pity there is for fat people. We have all learned to have more enlightened attitudes to Alcholism, Depression, and drug addiction over the years, but not obesity.

Alcohol and drugs are the same as food now??

Most people who are seriously overweight deperately want to lose wight and many are trying all the time to do so, and some succeed some dont.

They want to lose weight, but they don't want to change. Sustainable weight loss tactics are the problem tbh. Most people want a quick fix.

I genuinely beleive that obesity is the result of a psychological emptiness in much the same way that alchohol/drug addiction is.

I don't believe it. So there.

Obese people are not simply weak-willed lazy ****ers who cant be arsed to lose weight. They more often than not are people who are unhappy at some basic level, and have entered nto a bad relationship with food as a result, in much the same way alchohlics and drug addicts are.

So if they're unhappy they can't lose weight? Like there's some physiological block on your body's ability to drop fat unless you're perfectly content with life???

They deserve all the help they can get. Its easy for people who have never stuggled with their weight to dismiss it all as laziness, and its to a certain extent understandable. But as anyone who has ever been addicted to anything knows, giving up is not usually that simple. A person who has never smoked can say "Well jesus, why dont you just give them up for **** sake?' Anybody whos ever been a smoker knows that its not quite as easy as that. Same is true with food, except that losing weight is far harder than giving up cigarettes or alcohol.

Being obese is more addictive than nicotine???

This doesnt remove personal responsibility from it of course, but the sight of naturally skinny people getting a kick out of laughing at fat people's inferiority is nauseating to me.

Ya reckon there's a lot of naturally skinny people here? I'd be willing to bet there's a lot of "average" or heavier than average people here.

Being fat is no fun, and you need all the help , support and TLC you can get to lose that weight. and its ****ing hard. The last thing you need is people who've never had to struggle with their weight scoring points off you.

America is THAT way

---

>

fatmammycat

RealEstateKing wrote: »

How little pity there is for fat people. We have all learned to have more enlightened attitudes to Alcholism, Depression, and drug addiction over the years, but not obesity.

Most people who are seriously overweight deperately want to lose wight and many are trying all the time to do so, and some succeed some dont.

I genuinely beleive that obesity is the result of a psychological emptiness in much the same way that alchohol/drug addiction is. Obese people are not simply weak-willed lazy ****ers who cant be arsed to lose weight. They more often than not are people who are unhappy at some basic level, and have entered nto a bad relationship with food as a result, in much the same way alchohlics and drug addicts are.

They deserve all the help they can get. Its easy for people who have never stuggled with their weight to dismiss it all as laziness, and its to a certain extent understandable. But as anyone who has ever been addicted to anything knows, giving up is not usually that simple. A person who has never smoked can say "Well jesus, why dont you just give them up for **** sake?' Anybody whos ever been a smoker knows that its not quite as easy as that. Same is true with food, except that losing weight is far harder than giving up cigarettes or alcohol.

Secondly, though Genetics are not the entire cause, there are definitely genetic elements in the size of human beings: Some people are naturaly skinny, like my friend, and no matter what they eat/do, they stay that way: Sometimes to their annoyance. My skinny friend eats a full Irish every day, Drinks 4 pints every night, Pizzas for dinner, Chips for lunch and does no excercise, and he's as thin as a rake. I have to keep to a very strict diet or i'll be overweight in seconds. I cycle 100 miles a week and dont drink and Im still a couple of stone heavier than him.

This doesnt remove personal responsibility from it of course, but the sight of naturally skinny people getting a kick out of laughing at fat people's inferiority is nauseating to me. Being fat is no fun, and you need all the help , support and TLC you can get to lose that weight. and its ****ing hard. The last thing you need is people who've never had to struggle with their weight scoring points off you.

Not being funny RE, but I doubt many on here are thin or fit without considerable effort to be so. I'm thirty-six and my mother is extremely over weight, so it would be very easy for me to shrug and say, 'well it's in the genes.' In fact I can put on weight very easily-damn you delicious buttery bread. But I don't shrug and play the gene excuse or older metabolism ruse, I run, I play sport, I eat well, I lift heavy weight and I maintain a fit non fat body with some effort. I'm not going to excuse some of the more OTT comments here but there is no real excuse in this day and age for people to be tremendously overweight if they don't want to be. The education is there at their finger tips, but as Hanley rightly says, it's change that stops folk, changing eating habits, chnging lifestyle habits, changing exercising habits, change can be tough, but it's all very possible-if you want it. Yes people should have support, but they also have to think and act for themselves too.

MagicMarker

The video doesn't appear to want to work for me, but I'll give my 2c anyhoo...

All I really want to say is some people are born with no chance. The thread I started the other week about the teenagers needing a gastric bypass is a classic example. Bad parents with absolutely no clue on healthy nutrition passing on their bad habits to their kids and the cycle continues. Couple this with zero education on nutrition in schools and next to no sporting activities and there's no hope at all for future generations. Jamie Oliver has the right idea, I went to school in England and the only choices in the canteen at lunch is chips, pizza and burgers, and a desert of course! Not to mention the multiple vending machines in the hallways.

IMO, fitness and sports should be a major subject in school, just look at the likes of N. America where there are gyms in pretty much every school, basketball teams, football teams, gymnastics, swimming, athletics, baseball. WTF do we have? Yep, rounders. My secondary school didn't even have a soccer team.

As for adulthood, well, when you've been living off microwave meals, take aways and chocolate for most of your life, it can be a hard cycle to break. I do believe there is a certain dependancy on these types of food, you don't get fat because of a depression/emptyness, you get depressed because you get fat. The only thing these people have to make themselves feel better is the food that got them there in the first place.

amacachi

MagicMarker wrote: »

All I really want to say is some people are born with no chance. The thread I started the other week about the teenagers needing a gastric bypass is a classic example. Bad parents with absolutely no clue on healthy nutrition passing on their bad habits to their kids and the cycle continues. Couple this with zero education on nutrition in schools and next to no sporting activities and there's no hope at all for future generations. Jamie Oliver has the right idea, I went to school in England and the only choices in the canteen at lunch is chips, pizza and burgers, and a desert of course! Not to mention the multiple vending machines in the hallways.

IMO, fitness and sports should be a major subject in school, just look at the likes of N. America where there are gyms in pretty much every school, basketball teams, football teams, gymnastics, swimming, athletics, baseball. WTF do we have? Yep, rounders. My secondary school didn't even have a soccer team.

Yeah and look at the great physique people leave high school with over there. :P
The trouble is mostly parents. I'm only out of school and in Primary School played Rugby and GAA, soccer outside school. In secondary school I player badmintion and there were soccer, GAA, basketball and even table bloody tennis teams. This is a school without about 600 students in a rough area, so it ain't like 75% of the parents are interested, but the teams are still set up and have the numbers. The rugby club was just down the road, I think they have 4/5 teams at senior level, if not more, and anyone could walk in in their teens and join. There's no problem with organisation, its the will of the parents that's the problem.

The funny thing is is that looking at the 100 or so who were in my original year and the 100 or so from when I stayed back there were maybe 6 or 7 fat guys, me probably being the worst. I often argued that the teen obesity thing was overstated in my experience but on reflection it may just be due to the sports that were around.

Also if they're going to have a compulsary PE classes then they have to be fun. While I think it's a sorry, sorry excuse when people use hating PE as a reason for not exercising later, but get rid of all the excuses then tax them. :pac:

floggg

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Fatness should never become "OK". Higher taxes for fat people so they can pay for their increased risk of related diseases!

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055577634

Thats dumb as ****, sorry.

obviously, i don't think outside of medical reasons (thyroid problems etc) fatness is a good thing, but cop on, you cannot tax fatness. thats just absurd. in that case, tax slutty people because they are more likely to die of aids, tax cyclists because a car is more likely to hit them, tax idiots because, well, they're at risk of doing stupid life threatening stuff.

Hanley

floggg wrote: »

Thats dumb as ****, sorry.

obviously, i don't think outside of medical reasons (thyroid problems etc) fatness is a good thing, but cop on, you cannot tax fatness. thats just absurd. in that case, tax slutty people because they are more likely to die of aids, tax cyclists because a car is more likely to hit them, tax idiots because, well, they're at risk of doing stupid life threatening stuff.

The whole concept of externality charges come into play here.... Fat people place a burden on society over and above the burden they place on themselves, so they should be "charged" for it. Like most economic theories it's nice, but not workable.

Taxing certain foodstuffs would probably be the only reasonable way to enforce it I guess??

itsallaboutheL

Hanley wrote: »

Taxing certain foodstuffs would probably be the only reasonable way to enforce it I guess??

Get away from my Milk Tray ya bollox!!!

floggg

RealEstateKing wrote: »

How little pity there is for fat people. We have all learned to have more enlightened attitudes to Alcholism, Depression, and drug addiction over the years, but not obesity.

First of, depression does not belong anywhere near the same category as any of the above, and especially obesity. genuine cases of depression are a serious illness (although i do think the term has used far too liberally in modern times). i don't think you can ever say somebody who is clinically depressed has any control over it.

Secondly, i have no pity for drug addicts or alcoholics either. i'm sorry, but people need to take some personal responsibility for their lives. i'm not for one minute saying its an easy habit to break, but at the end of the day, you have to ask how did a person get to that position, and what are they doing to get out of it. it may be hard, but people can and do kick both habits, if they really want to. its those that don't really want it that can't.

RealEstateKing wrote: »

.

I genuinely beleive that obesity is the result of a psychological emptiness in much the same way that alchohol/drug addiction is. Obese people are not simply weak-willed lazy ****ers who cant be arsed to lose weight. They more often than not are people who are unhappy at some basic level, and have entered nto a bad relationship with food as a result, in much the same way alchohlics and drug addicts are.

They deserve all the help they can get. Its easy for people who have never stuggled with their weight to dismiss it all as laziness, and its to a certain extent understandable. But as anyone who has ever been addicted to anything knows, giving up is not usually that simple. A person who has never smoked can say "Well jesus, why dont you just give them up for **** sake?' Anybody whos ever been a smoker knows that its not quite as easy as that. Same is true with food, except that losing weight is far harder than giving up cigarettes or alcohol.

Secondly, though Genetics are not the entire cause, there are definitely genetic elements in the size of human beings: Some people are naturaly skinny, like my friend, and no matter what they eat/do, they stay that way: Sometimes to their annoyance. My skinny friend eats a full Irish every day, Drinks 4 pints every night, Pizzas for dinner, Chips for lunch and does no excercise, and he's as thin as a rake. I have to keep to a very strict diet or i'll be overweight in seconds. I cycle 100 miles a week and dont drink and Im still a couple of stone heavier than him.

This doesnt remove personal responsibility from it of course, but the sight of naturally skinny people getting a kick out of laughing at fat people's inferiority is nauseating to me. Being fat is no fun, and you need all the help , support and TLC you can get to lose that weight. and its ****ing hard. The last thing you need is people who've never had to struggle with their weight scoring points off you.

Sorry, as a former obese person and somebody who still struggles with my weight, i gotta call you on this - thats bull****.

I was fat for most of my life until very recently. I could make up bull**** excuses like it was because i was a shy, timid person, introverted, and not the most popular, but that would be a load of crap. it was for one simple reason - i ate a lot of junk, didn't understand what i was eating, and didn't exercise enough. simple as. it was all on me.

I "tried" to lose weight for years, and only ever seemed to gain it, and thought i always would be fat. i made half ass attempts to take up exercise, eat what i thought was "healthier", eat less, etc etc and got no where. i would go through cycles of this, and then fall back into bad habits and pile back on the pounds. i almost started to believe it was my genetics etc. and that i would always be fat.

but thankfully, i never gave into that thinking, and about a year and a half ago, i finally said enough was enough and decided i would do whatever it took to get in shape. but instead of ploughing off and throwing myself into what i thought was healthy, i actually took some time to educate myself, and started to read up on what was the best approach to take. i radically changed my diet, i started to exercise regularly and effectively and i took up weight. once i got started, i was amazed at how easy it actually was to lose weight. i made a few simple changes to my diet and committed myself to exercising and the weight fell off me.

At the end of the day, i speak from exerpience when i saw that fatness is a persons own fault. as hanley has said, often people want to loss weigt, but they are not willing to commit to the change involved. how many posts are there on here from people who ask for help on losing weight, but then won't take our advice when we say cut down on carbs or drink, or eat more vegetables. or people who say they would, but they can only eat canteen food in work, yet aren't willing to bring in their own lunch.

yes, there are people who ave high metabolisms and who can eat a load of junk and never put on a pound. thats great for them. then there are others who gain weight easily and have to put a bit of effort into staying in shape. while that may not be fair, that doesn't mean you shouldn't put that effort in. nor does it mean the skinny person shouldn't either - there is more to health than a small waist line.

I also agree that it shouldn't be acceptable to make fun of fat people (cardio - i'm looking at you with those pics of hanley) - it happened to me as a kid and it had a terrible effect on me. but that doesn't mean we should create a culture of tolerance for being overweight/unhealthy either. being overweight is bad for you for so many reasons, and is easily rectfied, so there really is n excuse. and i think i am well qualified to make that statement. i know i will always have to work at my weight, but i also know its entirely within my own control.

floggg

Hanley wrote: »

The whole concept of externality charges come into play here.... Fat people place a burden on society over and above the burden they place on themselves, so they should be "charged" for it. Like most economic theories it's nice, but not workable.

Taxing certain foodstuffs would probably be the only reasonable way to enforce it I guess??

I understand the complexities involved as well as the next - not only is it difficult from an economic perspective, it would be legally impossible to apply.

I didn't think the idea merited that sort of in depth analysis though. As i said, applying that sort of logic, promiscous people are at greater risk of catching and spreading STD's, and thereby place a burden on society over and above themselves, so following that logic, should also be taxed extra. but that would be stupid, right?

Hanley

floggg wrote: »

I understand the complexities involved as good as the next - not only is it difficult from an economic perspective, it would be legally impossible to apply.

I didn't think the idea merited that sort of in depth analysis though. As i said, applying that sort of logic, promiscous people are at greater risk of catching and spreading STD's, and thereby place a burden on society over and above themselves, so following that logic, should also be taxed extra. but that would be stupid, right?

Of course it'd be stupid!! A lot of economic theory is!!

cardio,shoot me

floggg wrote: »

I also agree that it shouldn't be acceptable to make fun of fat people (Cardio - i'm looking at you with those pics of hanley) - it happened to me as a kid and it had a terrible effect on me. but that doesn't mean we should create a culture of tolerance for being overweight/unhealthy either. being overweight is bad for you for so many reasons, and is easily rectfied, so there really is n excuse. and i think i am well qualified to make that statement. i know i will always have to work at my weight, but i also know its entirely within my own control.

Hey i used to be fat too, and hanley knows it was only in jest :P

floggg

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

Hey i used to be fat too, and hanley knows it was only in jest :P

Fat b@stard!:D

itsallaboutheL

floggg wrote: »

Fat b@stard!:D

And i think i started that!! and i too became ridiculously fat when i stopped playing rugby!! or at least when i stopped playin at a decent level

injured365

Fat phobia?, fat discrimination?, fat hatred? What a load of BS!! If people dont smoke because its a health risk, the same logic would prove people shouldnt have excessive amounts of fat because its a health risk.

I personnally can't stand people who defend those that are over-fat. Where some leniency may be applied due to certain health issues, those that allow themelves to become fat and blame everyone and everything except themselves should not be treated with love and hugs! People addicted to gambling or drugs or alcohol dont get over there issues without recognising a fault in their behaviour. If the issue is, at the basic level, energy expenditure versus energy intake only one person can really control enerygy intake.

Odysseus

To be fair around around the idea of psychological causation there are similiar themes running through certain types of addictions and eating disorders in relation to what are considered addictive behaviours and thought processes. However, there is also the personal responsibilitly side of things. I seen alot of people over the years address various "disorders".

In most cases both areas need to be addressed, I have never seen anyone recover without addressing the psych issues, but I have never seen anyone address their psych issues without taking personal responsibility.

Hanley

Odysseus wrote: »

To be fair around around the idea of psychological causation there are similiar themes running through certain types of addictions and eating disorders in relation to what are considered addictive behaviours and thought processes. However, there is also the personal responsibilitly side of things. I seen alot of people over the years address various "disorders".

In most cases both areas need to be addressed, I have never seen anyone recover without addressing the psych issues, but I have never seen anyone address their psych issues without taking personal responsibility.

AFAIK you're involved in the industry right? Would you say in the last 5-10 years these "disorders" have become more common....? Ya know, as an excuse for not taking personal responsibility and as a cop out?

amacachi

Hanley wrote: »

AFAIK you're involved in the industry right? Would you say in the last 5-10 years these "disorders" have become more common....? Ya know, as an excuse for not taking personal responsibility and as a cop out?

Sshhhhh. People will lose jobs if that kind of thinking spreads.

Odysseus

Hanley wrote: »

AFAIK you're involved in the industry right? Would you say in the last 5-10 years these "disorders" have become more common....? Ya know, as an excuse for not taking personal responsibility and as a cop out?

To be fair I wouldn't fully agree with your statement, however, that's not saying that there maybe some truth in too. About 15 years ago private treatment centres here started to treat various eating disorders here in Ireland. I think it was about 10 years ago those motivational clinics started up here, I remember looking at one of their job descriptions when they first opened.

Prioir to that their was treatment through OA and maybe a private psych clinic. I maybe the point that there can be similiarities between eating disorders and various addictions. They are plan to see when you work with people, however, alot of this thinking has come from the states. I don't necessarily veiw that as such, the same with this notion of sexual addiction. However, whether I agree with them being classed as addictions or not does not mean this conditions does not exist.

As to whether this is used as a cop out or not, people in such positions are gernerally in some form of psychological pain, however, change may seeem to be too difficult. If somebody asks my opinion outside of a session about being over weight I'm prone to go with the "all they need is a good kick up the hole" viewpoint.

However, this does not take into account the reasons behind the issue in the first place. I personally believe that most people can change their lives, how ever, the "good kick" method fails to take into account what got them there in the first place. Some people may need lots of time and help to change, some may never change due to their own subjective reasons and maybe their environment. Some may use the above as a reason not to change.

So yes I think it can be used as a cop out, but the one think I is important to remember is here is at the end of the day on an individual basis we never know the reason behind a persons excessive eating. A more dramatic example would be this being associated to some experiencing abuse as a child, then we wade in with the "good kick" advice. If a person is not taking personal responsibility is it because the refuse or that maybe they can't?

floggg

I would actually like to say that i do exclude recognised eating disorders such as aneorexia and bulemia from my above comments, although AFAIK sufferers do not tend to be overweight. In those cases, there are genuine psychological conditions.

Similarly, in the child abuse example, although i would imagine over weighting would only be one relatively minor way in which the consequences of same would manifest itself.

In those cases, being overweight is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. i think they are in an entirely different category.

Odysseus

floggg wrote: »

I would actually like to say that i do exclude recognised eating disorders such as aneorexia and bulemia from my above comments, although AFAIK sufferers do not tend to be overweight. In those cases, there are genuine psychological conditions.

Similarly, in the child abuse example, although i would imagine over weighting would only be one relatively minor way in which the consequences of same would manifest itself.

In those cases, being overweight is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. i think they are in an entirely different category.

I take your point floggg, but I suppose its a case of coming at it from different view-points. I would say that in most cases the over eating is a symptom of some psychological, in the same way that it can be applied to my ultra running.

There can be a difficultly here now between general and the specific, in this case said my above statement the over eating as a symptom, and the specific being the reason/causative experience of this behavioiur.

With some cases boot-camp training like "move it, move it, move it" [add the word fattie if desired] can deal with the issue. My point I supppose it that in most cases [my opinoin] there can be a psych issue behind the behaviour. In some cases the person may not have the psych resources to address the problem, and may never.

I suppose I'm just putting forward the notion of looking at it from a different perspective, and maybe a bit more understanding. With saying that I can be a very judgemental person around this issue in my personal life, however, I just try not to judge too harshly if you get my point. Hopefully that makes sense.

cjbh

is this why?

floggg

Odysseus wrote: »

I take your point floggg, but I suppose its a case of coming at it from different view-points. I would say that in most cases the over eating is a symptom of some psychological, in the same way that it can be applied to my ultra running.

There can be a difficultly here now between general and the specific, in this case said my above statement the over eating as a symptom, and the specific being the reason/causative experience of this behavioiur.

With some cases boot-camp training like "move it, move it, move it" [add the word fattie if desired] can deal with the issue. My point I supppose it that in most cases [my opinoin] there can be a psych issue behind the behaviour. In some cases the person may not have the psych resources to address the problem, and may never.

I suppose I'm just putting forward the notion of looking at it from a different perspective, and maybe a bit more understanding. With saying that I can be a very judgemental person around this issue in my personal life, however, I just try not to judge too harshly if you get my point. Hopefully that makes sense.

I do understand your point, and as i rule, i never try to deal in absolutes, because there will always be exceptions to every rule.

However, i would disagree with your use of the word "most" - in my opinion, its the minority of people who have any "real" psychological reasons for being overweight, whereas the rest just have ****ty eating habits.

If you look at all the threads started on here about how to lose weight, the first thing we always ask is about diet, and in many cases we wither get

(a) i eat pretty healthy, i just can't lose the weight, only to discover that their vision of healthy is anything but; or
(b) i know i eat crap, but i hate vegetables/i love to drink to much/my mother/work does all my cooking so i have no choice.

That doesn't sound to me like somebody who over eats to overcome so deep psychological trauma, its sounds like people who are uneducated on food and nutrition and/or who are unwilling to make any sacifice to achieve their goals.

I am also assuming when you refer to psychological reasons, you are referring to something pretty serious, like the abuse cases, not something which is relatively trivial. E.g. people who eat "because of low self esteem" - they don't eat because of low self esteem, they have low self esteem because they eat.

floggg

cjbh wrote: »

is this why?

I think theis proves my point - this kid doesn't have a psychological disorder, he has bad/american parents!

cjbh

in all seriousness though, i do symapthise with (some) overweight people.
OK some are just lazy (i could easily pile on a stone or two if i gave in to all my cravings all the time and never worked out)
but...
i do think some have a 'disposition' of sorts to being overweight
specifically, they have bigger appetites than others
i'm kind of naturally slim (as in, i don't make a HUGE effort to stay slim, although i do look after myself). but i can't really take credit for this - i have noticed that i just have a smaller appetite than others. and i don't think you can change your appetite size.
whether size of appetite is inherited, or learned in the early childhood, i think it is fixed.
so for some people, battling against a big appetite must seem like torture. it's like they are hungry all the time.

i also believe many of us natural body 'set weights', which is where your body strives to maintain a constant, arbitrary weight. for a lot of us, this 'set point' will be a healthy weight, but for others, it will be underweight or overweight.

PERSONAL EXPERIENCE: a few years back i lost 2 stone (that i didn't really need to lose). my BMI at that point was about 20 (quite low). i went from being generally indifferent to food, to being absolutely RAVENOUS all the time and totally OBSESSED with food. i was never satisfied after a meal and even ate an ENTIRE box of shredded wheat (yes, shredded wheat!) at one setting. since then i have gone back to my normal weight and appetite is regulated once again.

my point: we are not as in control of our bodies as we like to think. some people, i believe, are destined to be overweight to some degree. in the same i could never maintain that weight loss that i had (not that i would want to), i imagine that many overweight people would also struggle the same way.

Odysseus

Actually child abuse came to terms when I seen that pic. But would you consider a psych issue with the parents as influencing this behaviour? With saying that its also a cultural issue as well which is just a larger scale of group psychology.

cjbh

Odysseus wrote: »

Actually child abuse came to terms when I seen that pic. But would you consider a psych issue with the parents as influencing this behaviour? With saying that its also a cultural issue as well which is just a larger scale of group psychology.

i think 'child abuse' is a bit harsh. more than likely, the kid's parents are obese themselves, and they just don't know any other way

a lot of parents of fat kids say the reason the give their kid all this food, is because the kid demands it. it must be very hard to deny your kid all the time, it is a parent's instinct to keep their child well fed.

floggg

Odysseus wrote: »

Actually child abuse came to terms when I seen that pic. But would you consider a psych issue with the parents as influencing this behaviour? With saying that its also a cultural issue as well which is just a larger scale of group psychology.

Yes, i agree, it is a form of child abuse, but not obviously as traumatising as other forms of physical/sexual mental abuse.

And i do also agree that the parents have a strong influence of the child, which will subconscioulsy affect the childs mental developments, and will ultimately lead to the development of certain habits/characterisitics in the child as a result, one of which is highly likley to be over eating and lack of knowledge about fitness/health, leading to poor health and potetnially obesity.

I guess where we differ so is really the labels. I agree, this is all psychological, in that it is ovbiously related to the mind of the individual. However, i would tend to see that as bad "habits" as such more than psychological issues, although i think you would view them as one in the same. I guess i am applying laymans terms to these things.

My point ultimately is that these are all things which are person can easily rectify once he makes a conscious decision to do so, and is willing to address his own habits/traits and personal responsibility. I would differentiate that from what a lay person would term psychological issues, such as those brought on by abuse, trauma, insufficient social development etc, which are more deep rooted and difficult to overcome on ones own.

amacachi

cjbh wrote: »

i think 'child abuse' is a bit harsh. more than likely, the kid's parents are obese themselves, and they just don't know any other way

a lot of parents of fat kids say the reason the give their kid all this food, is because the kid demands it. it must be very hard to deny your kid all the time, it is a parent's instinct to keep their child well fed.

They only demand it because they're used to it, and used to getting their own way.