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Faking religon for church wedding

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Alonzo Sharp Balcony


    robindch wrote: »
    Weird, so was I.

    But it wasn't so much creepy as just sad -- perhaps 40 people in the church, and only five or ten (over)doing the responses, with everybody else sitting there, tight-lipped and uncomfortable looking.

    Felt really sorry for the very elderly priest who seemed like a decent enough chap, but who was obviously aware of the way that the whole thing was headed. The atmosphere of gloom wasn't helped by the parents forgetting to take the baptism guide away with them, and a small stack of the neo-fascist "Alive!" rags just inside the door.

    Don't suppose it was near lucan? :pac:

    Think I woulda seen ya though

    Our elderly priest didn't know the name "mícheál" for some reason and kept calling the babies (despite being reminded several times) michelle.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,260 ✭✭✭jdivision


    Gambler wrote: »
    2. You don't have to promise to raise your children as christians. This used to be the case but these days the non christian doesn't have to make that promise and the christian is only required to promise to try to raise them as christian as long as this doesn't jeopardise the marriage itself.

    .
    Under Tantum Ergo, do the kids not have to be brought up as Catholics. My friends got married a couple of years ago, one RC and one CoI, and the Tantum Ergo caused the CoI family a deal of distress that I felt was wrong. They were told they had to do it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    jdivision wrote: »
    Under Tantum Ergo, do the kids not have to be brought up as Catholics. My friends got married a couple of years ago, one RC and one CoI, and the Tantum Ergo caused the CoI family a deal of distress that I felt was wrong. They were told they had to do it.
    not questioning you or anything, but what would happen if you didn't raise them as catholics? surely, a child has to have a choice in the matter if nothing else or it IS a cult!

    i think even the catholic church has past the point of witch hunts these days, so i doubt they could do any kind of forcing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    Gambler wrote: »
    Basically you used to have to swear to raise your children as catholics if you wanted to marry a catholic. They changed the rules at some point (not sure what the details are) and now I wasn't required to swear any such thing and my wife had to say that she would make every effort to raise her children as catholics as long as it didn't jeopradise the marriage itself.

    .

    this is the bit im asking you to explain further.
    We haven't got any kids yet but when we do have kids they more than likely won't be baptised or raised as christians.

    sounds you didn't lie to the church but your wife did.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    hmm im not sure what the canon law was previously, if it was changed, but what gambler describes and what is described here is very confusing
    http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080828055951AAnSLcz

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P41.HTM
    Vatican law on mixed marriages
    1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church;...

    right so mix that with catholic school monopoly and you get... Catholics out populating other religions for generation to generation. huzzar!

    basically


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    jdivision wrote: »
    Under Tantum Ergo, do the kids not have to be brought up as Catholics. My friends got married a couple of years ago, one RC and one CoI, and the Tantum Ergo caused the CoI family a deal of distress that I felt was wrong. They were told they had to do it.
    We got married last year and the documentation clearly stated a section that spelled it out as her swearing to raise the children as catholics if it didn't jeopradise the marriage. Maybe it's different if it's between two christian denominations?
    Gambler wrote: »
    Basically you used to have to swear to raise your children as catholics if you wanted to marry a catholic. They changed the rules at some point (not sure what the details are) and now I wasn't required to swear any such thing and my wife had to say that she would make every effort to raise her children as catholics as long as it didn't jeopradise the marriage itself.
    this is the bit im asking you to explain further.
    We haven't got any kids yet but when we do have kids they more than likely won't be baptised or raised as christians.
    sounds you didn't lie to the church but your wife did.
    No, she didn't. If she insisted on raising the children regardless of my feelings about it then she would definitely be jeopradising the marriage. As it stands we are already discussing it and trying to figure out what we are going to do but right now we are probably not going to raise our kids as christians. However they will be introduced to the beliefs of the church through their mother and when they are ready will be allowed to make the decision for themselves..

    How exactly is that her lying to the church?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    Hey, just had a quick look at this and it does appear that this applies specifically to catholics marrying other christians:
    Can. 1124 Without express permission of the competent authority, a marriage is prohibited between two baptized persons of whom one is baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it after baptism and has not defected from it by a formal act and the other of whom is enrolled in a Church or ecclesial community not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

    Can. 1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions have been fulfilled:

    1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church;

    2/ the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time about the promises which the Catholic party is to make, in such a way that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party;

    3/ both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage which neither of the contracting parties is to exclude.
    It also states all that is within their power but is not absolutely required that they have to raise the children as catholics, just do all that is in their power to ensure that it happens.

    Also it is only the catholic party that has to make a declaration, not the partner..

    [Edit]I should note that think the whole having to swear to do everything in their power thing is silly in and of itself but does seem to be a step forward from a situation where both parents had to swear to bring the child up as a catholic..[/Edit]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    its doesn't sound like your wife ever intended to get your children baptised etc? you yourself think its silly, is that a reflection on her thoughts on having to swear to being up the children catholic?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    its doesn't sound like your wife ever intended to get your chidlren baptised etc? you yourself think its silly, is that a reflection on her thoughts on having to swear to being up the children catholic?

    Again I stress, she never had to swear that she would bring the children up as catholics or baptise them. She had to swear that she would make every effort as long as it didn't jeopradise the marriage.

    And again we haven't made a firm decision not to baptise them, we are still discussing it but we are leaning towards not getting them baptised till they are old enough to decide for themselves if they want to be christians.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    Gambler wrote: »
    Again I stress, she never had to swear that she would bring the children up as catholics or baptise them. She had to swear that she would make every effort as long as it didn't jeopradise the marriage.

    And again we haven't made a firm decision not to baptise them, we are still discussing it but we are leaning towards not getting them baptised till they are old enough to decide for themselves if they want to be christians.

    baptism afaik is pretty essential to bringing up children catholic and i don't think the church allows for putting it off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    ... i don't think the church allows for putting it off.

    Um... ? What are they going to do? Come round and baptise them by force? Just don't get it done and when it becomes an issue at first confession, communion or confirmation ask them if they want to be involved and then baptise them or not as the case maybe... I remember being told that if we couldn't find our baptism cert. We'd have to be done again before we could get first communion or confirmed (one or the other, don't remember exactly)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Gambler wrote: »
    I had the option of taking a blessing if I wanted instead of communion but I was also given the option of waving it.

    I really doubt they would let you wave the host around instead of eating it.

    :D
    baptism afaik is pretty essential to bringing up children catholic and i don't think the church allows for putting it off.

    You can get baptised when you're 90 on your deathbed if you want.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    baptism afaik is pretty essential to bringing up children catholic and i don't think the church allows for putting it off.

    My point was that she didn't have to swear that she would bring the children up as catholics. That means we can choose if we are going to have them baptised or not. I was replying specifically to your suggestion that she lied and never intended to have the children baptised at all.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,539 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    hobochris wrote: »
    HI all,

    Just a quick question I just want to get peoples views on:

    Would you fake being catholic or even get baptized If your partner wanted to have a church wedding?

    Personally, I have no religious belief's (I'm a man of science; I'll believe when there is concrete proof), But having been thinking about this for a while and I'm not sure if I would go through the notions of pretending to be religious to get married In a church. But, at the same time I love my GF, so If she wanted a church wedding I'm not sure what Id do...


    I was never baptized, My mother wanted me to have the choice of religion or none. so its not a case of being a fake catholic as alot of people are..

    I would need to go through the baptism thing as I believe you have to produce a baptism cert.


    Has anyone any thoughts or opinions? or has anyone been in a similar situation? All opinions welcome religious or not.

    I suppose the equations are something like this:

    Husband (Agnostic) + Wife (Devout Christian) = Church wedding
    H(Atheist) + Wife (Vague Christian) = Debate about Civil/Church Ceremony
    H(Atheist) + Wife (Atheist) = Civil ceremony
    H(Christian) + Wife (Jewish) = Debate about Christian/Jewish Ceremony
    H(Atheist) + Wife (atheist) = perhaps no wedding at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    kiffer wrote: »
    Um... ? What are they going to do? Come round and baptise them by force? Just don't get it done and when it becomes an issue at first confession, communion or confirmation ask them if they want to be involved and then baptise them or not as the case maybe... I remember being told that if we couldn't find our baptism cert. We'd have to be done again before we could get first communion or confirmed (one or the other, don't remember exactly)

    of course you can get baptised later, but i don't think
    make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptised and brought up in the Catholic Church

    includes putting off the baptism.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    of course you can get baptised later, but i don't think

    includes putting off the baptism.
    OK, you appear to have decided that what you think of the church is truth and you don't want to hear what I am saying but let me try one more time with some bold put in to some of my quotes for emphasis of the point I have already made several times:
    make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptised and brought up in the Catholic Church
    She had to swear that she would make every effort as long as it didn't jeopradise the marriage.
    And again we haven't made a firm decision not to baptise them, we are still discussing it but we are leaning towards not getting them baptised till they are old enough to decide for themselves if they want to be christians.

    What it comes down to is this. The RC church used to have a rule that both parents had to swear to raise the children as catholics, this is no longer the case.

    Someone posted
    You have to promise the church you'll bring your kids up Catholic
    and I posted to clarify that as an Atheist I had to make no such promise. Also my partner had to go through a procedural step to say that she would make every effort to raise our children as catholics as long as this would not jeopradise the marriage. As part of this discussion the priest explained that when it came down to it this was a decision that we would have to come to as a couple.

    My wife at no stage lied or misled anyone about our intentions when it comes to raising any children we might have and the church made no effort get me to swear that I would allow our children to be raised as catholics.

    I hope this (finally) clears up the misconceptions you seem to have about either the church, my wife or both.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    I suppose the equations are something like this:

    Husband (Agnostic) + Wife (Devout Christian) = Church wedding
    H(Atheist) + Wife (Vague Christian) = Debate about Civil/Church Ceremony
    H(Atheist) + Wife (Atheist) = Civil ceremony
    H(Christian) + Wife (Jewish) = Debate about Christian/Jewish Ceremony
    H(Atheist) + Wife (atheist) = perhaps no wedding at all.

    I love this neat little summary, it made me laugh because I probably fit in there :D

    Is there a difference in the capital "A" used in the 3rd scenario and the lower-case "a" used in the 5th?

    I think we also need to take into account:

    H(Atheist) + Wife (Atheist) + In-Laws (Catholic) = Holy war :eek:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    Gambler wrote: »
    OK, you appear to have decided that what you think of the church is truth and you don't want to hear what I am saying but let me try one more time with some bold put in to some of my quotes for emphasis of the point I have already made several times:





    What it comes down to is this. The RC church used to have a rule that both parents had to swear to raise the children as catholics, this is no longer the case.

    Someone posted and I posted to clarify that as an Atheist I had to make no such promise. Also my partner had to go through a procedural step to say that she would make every effort to raise our children as catholics as long as this would not jeopradise the marriage. As part of this discussion the priest explained that when it came down to it this was a decision that we would have to come to as a couple.

    My wife at no stage lied or misled anyone about our intentions when it comes to raising any children we might have and the church made no effort get me to swear that I would allow our children to be raised as catholics.

    I hope this (finally) clears up the misconceptions you seem to have about either the church, my wife or both.

    make every effort as long as it didn't jeopradise the marriage

    clear as mud


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    OK, assuming for a second that you are an atheist\agnostic\any other religion other than RC. Let me ask you this, you meet and fall in love with a christian, you decide you want to get married, then she insists that you must become a christian and raise the children as catholics. Can you see the wedding continuing and you marrying her anyway even though she has forced her religion on you as a condition of marriage?

    That right there is an attitude that to my mind would jeopradise the relationship\marriage surely?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 444 ✭✭franklyshocked


    hobochris wrote: »
    HI all,

    Just a quick question I just want to get peoples views on:

    Would you fake being catholic or even get baptized If your partner wanted to have a church wedding?

    Personally, I have no religious belief's (I'm a man of science; I'll believe when there is concrete proof), But having been thinking about this for a while and I'm not sure if I would go through the notions of pretending to be religious to get married In a church. But, at the same time I love my GF, so If she wanted a church wedding I'm not sure what Id do...

    I was never baptized, My mother wanted me to have the choice of religion or none. so its not a case of being a fake catholic as alot of people are..

    I would need to go through the baptism thing as I believe you have to produce a baptism cert.

    Has anyone any thoughts or opinions? or has anyone been in a similar situation? All opinions welcome religious or not.

    Myself and my wife are both from Catholic families and although we both seperated from the church the minute we left home for college we couldn't find a venue large enough to hold everyone we knew, so I had to sit with the parish priest back at home and have a chat about faith.
    I found it easy as he never asked if the faith I was talking about was in the church.
    It wasn't until the birth of our son last year that the battle took place between our parents and us when we decided that it was time to come clean so to speak and let everyone know we would not be going down the church route with junior.
    Its still a bit of a tricky situation with the grand parents but while I still felt like a bit of a child getting married, and sort of owed my parents a church wedding, I'm a parent now and have to make the decisions that my son will be proud of.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    I'll just leave this here ...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    pH wrote: »
    I'll just leave this here ...



    He is one prize lunatic is our Pat, and yet millions of Americans would hang on his every word. The moron interviewing him was just as bad - 'That is so true, so true'. Yeah, about as true as me being an intergalactic space monster, but there you go.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭whatdoicare


    If yr wife to be has no particular church in mind why not go for a blessing? My fiancee and myself aren't religious but the parents (mothers on both sides for some reason) were putting awful pressure on us for a church wedding which we didn't want. We actually wanted a castle wedding but priests wont do that without this "magic stone" which you need permission to move or something?? We were introduced to a celtic monk by a good friend who had recently attended a wedding by him: http://www.daramolloy.com/index.html who is not part of any church but will do any kind of ceremony you wish, anywhere you want. You have to get yrself registered but thats only a formality.
    Problem solved- no religion in a castle for me and fiancee and my mammy and mammy in law seem to be happy about the "monk" part haha.
    He also does communions and baptisms or whatever equivalent you want. :o


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 589 ✭✭✭loctite


    Malari wrote: »

    H(Atheist) + Wife (Atheist) + In-Laws (Catholic) = Holy war :eek:

    Applies to myself. Having to have a church wedding to appease everyone. But I don't want to agree to bring up children catholic regardless of whether it will affect my marriage or not.

    I find it equally intrusive that I have to do a pre-marriage course before being married in the church....Their ceremony, their rules I guess!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    loctite wrote: »
    Applies to myself. Having to have a church wedding to appease everyone. But I don't want to agree to bring up children catholic regardless of whether it will affect my marriage or not.

    I find it equally intrusive that I have to do a pre-marriage course before being married in the church....Their ceremony, their rules I guess!!

    This thread makes me so glad I'm not getting married. :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    loctite wrote: »
    I find it equally intrusive that I have to do a pre-marriage course before being married in the church....Their ceremony, their rules I guess!!
    In fairness a pre-marriage course is probably a good thing for everyone to do irrelevant of religious background. The one I did had no religious content beyond a small section that relates to the practical details of the ceremony (order of events etc.) but had a lot of great stuff on conflict management and relationship advise.

    Now if only there was some way that we could get people to have a pre-birth parenthood course..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    loctite wrote: »
    Applies to myself. Having to have a church wedding to appease everyone. But I don't want to agree to bring up children catholic regardless of whether it will affect my marriage or not.

    You shouldn't do it. Why should either of you have to 'appease' your parents? They don't own you. What happened to respecting your wishes? Your husband-to-be should stand up for himself and stop being a wuss. Tell the parents he's getting married on his terms, not theirs. Let them like it or lump it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    So alot of atheists on here got married in a church?

    Very very interesting, if only from a socialogical point of view.

    I most definitely wouldnt get married in a catholic church as I dont agree with them. Im a christian.

    Why lapse your views to fit in with societal norms?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Why lapse your views to fit in with societal norms?

    Because an angry wife is a very bad thing?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    So alot of atheists on here got married in a church?

    Very very interesting, if only from a socialogical point of view.

    I most definitely wouldnt get married in a catholic church as I dont agree with them. Im a christian.

    Why lapse your views to fit in with societal norms?

    :pac: you should check out the sending your kids to school thread!

    I would imagine most atheists who have married in a church did so because they married a catholic.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    Malari wrote: »
    I would imagine most atheists who have married in a church did so because they married a catholic.

    +1 I can't imagine 2 Atheists choosing to get married in a Church. Plus before pen has hit paper, I would never underestimate the influence of the mother of the bride.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    +1 I can't imagine 2 Atheists choosing to get married in a Church. Plus before pen has hit paper, I would never underestimate the influence of the mother of the bride.

    I think the mother of the bridegroom can be as much of a troublesome prospect.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I married my RC wife in a church.

    Next time will definitely be in a registry office.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Dades wrote: »
    Next time will definitely be in a registry office.

    I'd suggest not telling her that.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Zillah wrote: »
    I'd suggest not telling her that.
    It won't be her so the registry office won't bother her. ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    i wouldn't really care to be honest. if my other half wanted a church wedding i wouldn't mind saying a few meaningless words.


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