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Faking religon for church wedding

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    #32
    conlonbmw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭conlonbmw


    - snip -

    conlonbmw taking a week's holiday to read the various bits of the charter he just broke.

    Dades


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    #33
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,905 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    vinchick wrote: »
    I dont see why you would get married in a church anyways, they are creepy.
    They can be creepy. I find it depends on the time and place and occassion. School communions were always a bit creepy. On the other hand I thought my stepmother's funeral mass was quite fascinating.


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    #34
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    thanks for the info
    Gambler wrote: »
    Just to clear up a few misconceptions:

    2. You don't have to promise to raise your children as christians. This used to be the case but these days the non christian doesn't have to make that promise and the christian is only required to promise to try to raise them as christian as long as this doesn't jeopardise the marriage itself.

    sorry explain that again


    and are you raising them christian?
    Basically you used to have to swear to raise your children as catholics if you wanted to marry a catholic. They changed the rules at some point (not sure what the details are) and now I wasn't required to swear any such thing and my wife had to say that she would make every effort to raise her children as catholics as long as it didn't jeopradise the marriage itself.

    We haven't got any kids yet but when we do have kids they more than likely won't be baptised or raised as christians.


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    #35
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Gambler wrote: »
    We haven't got any kids yet but when we do have kids they more than likely won't be baptised or raised as christians.

    Isn't that a bit unfair on your wife if she wants to teach them about Christianity and raise them that way?


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    #36
    vinchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭vinchick


    Overheal wrote: »
    They can be creepy. I find it depends on the time and place and occassion. School communions were always a bit creepy. On the other hand I thought my stepmother's funeral mass was quite fascinating.

    To be honests its the stations of the cross and the pained iconography. Not very romantic.


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    #37
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Isn't that a bit unfair on your wife if she wants to teach them about Christianity and raise them that way?

    Wouldn't it be unfair on Gambler is his wife forced him to raise them Catholic?


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    #38
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Lads, I think this is an issue for gambler and his missis! We're not the RC Church here!


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    #39
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,964 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Gambler wrote: »
    Basically you used to have to swear to raise your children as catholics if you wanted to marry a catholic. They changed the rules at some point (not sure what the details are) and now I wasn't required to swear any such thing and my wife had to say that she would make every effort to raise her children as catholics as long as it didn't jeopradise the marriage itself.

    We haven't got any kids yet but when we do have kids they more than likely won't be baptised or raised as christians.
    Would you have a problem with your wife bringing the kids to Church / Mass?


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    #40
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    Wouldn't it be unfair on Gambler is his wife forced him to raise them Catholic?

    He doesn't have to do anything. She should have the right to raise her own children Catholic if she wishes however.


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    #41
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Jakkass wrote: »
    He doesn't have to do anything. She should have the right to raise her own children Catholic if she wishes however.

    He should have the right to raise his own children non catholic if he wishes. She doesn't have to do anything.


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    #42
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    bluewolf: they can both teach their child he one thing and she another. Wouldn't be the most practical, but meh.


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    #43
    Terodil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Terodil


    Jakkass wrote: »
    bluewolf: they can both teach their child he one thing and she another. Wouldn't be the most practical, but meh.
    I would like to see that poor child.

    Why not abstain from indoctrinating that poor kid from the start and give it a CHOICE when s/he comes of age? Is that sooo terrible?

    Oh right I forgot, if the kid isn't sprinkled with water a few months after birth it'll end up being poked with hot forks if anything happens...


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    #44
    Zamboni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    Jakkass wrote: »
    He doesn't have to do anything. She should have the right to raise her own children Catholic if she wishes however.

    What about the right of the child to not have it's faith chosen for them?


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    #45
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    Jakkass wrote: »
    bluewolf: they can both teach their child he one thing and she another. Wouldn't be the most practical, but meh.
    they could go the whole hog and call their dog "sit" too. :rolleyes:

    "come here sit!"

    poor kids wouldn't know if they were coming or going and the'd probably trip over the dog too! :p

    seriously though (and back on topic), we're getting married next year in Portugal. We're going over in a cuple of weeks to scout locations, but we've already made plenty of enquiries (i.e. she has) and we can get married in a church without any problems there. she's a non-practicing, barely beleiving catholic and I'm a card carrying atheist and it doesn't seem to be an issue, although we were told that they'd prefer it if i wrote agnostic on the forms when the time comes but seriously, from an atheist point of view what does it matter?

    at the end of the day I'll be getting married at the location that feels right and gives us the best wedding pictures.

    i woudn't feel any different about getting married in a church being an atheist than i would about getting married on a boat on an imaginary lake if i couldn't swim. :D


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    #46
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    vibe666 wrote: »
    i woudn't feel any different about getting married in a church being an atheist than i would about getting married on a boat on an imaginary lake if i couldn't swim. :D
    What about an imaginary boat on a lake if you couldn't swim? :D


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    #47
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    Personally, if I had kids I would keep them away from the church and christianity as much as I could. I see it as a cult.

    'If one person is delusional they are called insane, if many people are delusional it is called religion'

    Let me put it this way. If the Church Of the Flying Spagetti Monster became popular in your particular village, would you have a problem with your kids being brainwashed by it's teachings? Of course you would.

    As atheists, we have all managed to step away from this ridiculousness and take a much more reasonable view of the world. I certainly wouldn't want to waste my kids time in learning crap. Teach them facts.


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    #48
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    liamw wrote: »
    Personally, if I had kids I would keep them away from the church and christianity as much as I could. I see it as a cult.

    aye. I was at a christening the other day. Creepy wasn't in it. Especially the kids' drawings about god etc all over the church when I doubt they had a clue what they were drawing. "we are all sheep", "god is love", etc...
    best of all was the declaration "these children belong to the parish now". Came across in less of a community way and more of a creepy way.
    shudder.


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    #49
    Zamboni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    bluewolf wrote: »
    best of all was the declaration "these children belong to the parish now". Came across in less of a community way and more of a creepy way.
    shudder.

    Better than "these children belong to the parish priest now" but I digress...


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    #50
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Zamboni wrote: »
    Better than "these children belong to the parish priest now" but I digress...

    Well I meant more of a borg collective kind of way ;P


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    #51
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,400 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I was at a christening the other day.
    Weird, so was I.

    But it wasn't so much creepy as just sad -- perhaps 40 people in the church, and only five or ten (over)doing the responses, with everybody else sitting there, tight-lipped and uncomfortable looking.

    Felt really sorry for the very elderly priest who seemed like a decent enough chap, but who was obviously aware of the way that the whole thing was headed. The atmosphere of gloom wasn't helped by the parents forgetting to take the baptism guide away with them, and a small stack of the neo-fascist "Alive!" rags just inside the door.


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    #52
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    robindch wrote: »
    Weird, so was I.

    But it wasn't so much creepy as just sad -- perhaps 40 people in the church, and only five or ten (over)doing the responses, with everybody else sitting there, tight-lipped and uncomfortable looking.

    Felt really sorry for the very elderly priest who seemed like a decent enough chap, but who was obviously aware of the way that the whole thing was headed. The atmosphere of gloom wasn't helped by the parents forgetting to take the baptism guide away with them, and a small stack of the neo-fascist "Alive!" rags just inside the door.

    Don't suppose it was near lucan? :pac:

    Think I woulda seen ya though

    Our elderly priest didn't know the name "mícheál" for some reason and kept calling the babies (despite being reminded several times) michelle.


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    #53
    jdivision
    Registered Users Posts: 4,260 ✭✭✭jdivision


    Gambler wrote: »
    2. You don't have to promise to raise your children as christians. This used to be the case but these days the non christian doesn't have to make that promise and the christian is only required to promise to try to raise them as christian as long as this doesn't jeopardise the marriage itself.

    .
    Under Tantum Ergo, do the kids not have to be brought up as Catholics. My friends got married a couple of years ago, one RC and one CoI, and the Tantum Ergo caused the CoI family a deal of distress that I felt was wrong. They were told they had to do it.


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    #54
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    jdivision wrote: »
    Under Tantum Ergo, do the kids not have to be brought up as Catholics. My friends got married a couple of years ago, one RC and one CoI, and the Tantum Ergo caused the CoI family a deal of distress that I felt was wrong. They were told they had to do it.
    not questioning you or anything, but what would happen if you didn't raise them as catholics? surely, a child has to have a choice in the matter if nothing else or it IS a cult!

    i think even the catholic church has past the point of witch hunts these days, so i doubt they could do any kind of forcing.


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    #55
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    Gambler wrote: »
    Basically you used to have to swear to raise your children as catholics if you wanted to marry a catholic. They changed the rules at some point (not sure what the details are) and now I wasn't required to swear any such thing and my wife had to say that she would make every effort to raise her children as catholics as long as it didn't jeopradise the marriage itself.

    .

    this is the bit im asking you to explain further.
    We haven't got any kids yet but when we do have kids they more than likely won't be baptised or raised as christians.

    sounds you didn't lie to the church but your wife did.


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    #56
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    hmm im not sure what the canon law was previously, if it was changed, but what gambler describes and what is described here is very confusing
    http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080828055951AAnSLcz

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P41.HTM
    Vatican law on mixed marriages
    1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church;...

    right so mix that with catholic school monopoly and you get... Catholics out populating other religions for generation to generation. huzzar!

    basically
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1tXS-NqT9I


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    #57
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    jdivision wrote: »
    Under Tantum Ergo, do the kids not have to be brought up as Catholics. My friends got married a couple of years ago, one RC and one CoI, and the Tantum Ergo caused the CoI family a deal of distress that I felt was wrong. They were told they had to do it.
    We got married last year and the documentation clearly stated a section that spelled it out as her swearing to raise the children as catholics if it didn't jeopradise the marriage. Maybe it's different if it's between two christian denominations?
    lostexpectation wrote: »
    Gambler wrote: »
    Basically you used to have to swear to raise your children as catholics if you wanted to marry a catholic. They changed the rules at some point (not sure what the details are) and now I wasn't required to swear any such thing and my wife had to say that she would make every effort to raise her children as catholics as long as it didn't jeopradise the marriage itself.
    this is the bit im asking you to explain further.
    We haven't got any kids yet but when we do have kids they more than likely won't be baptised or raised as christians.
    sounds you didn't lie to the church but your wife did.
    No, she didn't. If she insisted on raising the children regardless of my feelings about it then she would definitely be jeopradising the marriage. As it stands we are already discussing it and trying to figure out what we are going to do but right now we are probably not going to raise our kids as christians. However they will be introduced to the beliefs of the church through their mother and when they are ready will be allowed to make the decision for themselves..

    How exactly is that her lying to the church?


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    #58
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P41.HTM
    Vatican law on mixed marriages
    Hey, just had a quick look at this and it does appear that this applies specifically to catholics marrying other christians:
    Can. 1124 Without express permission of the competent authority, a marriage is prohibited between two baptized persons of whom one is baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it after baptism and has not defected from it by a formal act and the other of whom is enrolled in a Church or ecclesial community not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

    Can. 1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions have been fulfilled:

    1/ the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church;

    2/ the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time about the promises which the Catholic party is to make, in such a way that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party;

    3/ both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage which neither of the contracting parties is to exclude.
    It also states all that is within their power but is not absolutely required that they have to raise the children as catholics, just do all that is in their power to ensure that it happens.

    Also it is only the catholic party that has to make a declaration, not the partner..

    [Edit]I should note that think the whole having to swear to do everything in their power thing is silly in and of itself but does seem to be a step forward from a situation where both parents had to swear to bring the child up as a catholic..[/Edit]


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    #59
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    its doesn't sound like your wife ever intended to get your children baptised etc? you yourself think its silly, is that a reflection on her thoughts on having to swear to being up the children catholic?


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    #60
    Gambler
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Gambler


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    its doesn't sound like your wife ever intended to get your chidlren baptised etc? you yourself think its silly, is that a reflection on her thoughts on having to swear to being up the children catholic?

    Again I stress, she never had to swear that she would bring the children up as catholics or baptise them. She had to swear that she would make every effort as long as it didn't jeopradise the marriage.

    And again we haven't made a firm decision not to baptise them, we are still discussing it but we are leaning towards not getting them baptised till they are old enough to decide for themselves if they want to be christians.


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    #61
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    Gambler wrote: »
    Again I stress, she never had to swear that she would bring the children up as catholics or baptise them. She had to swear that she would make every effort as long as it didn't jeopradise the marriage.

    And again we haven't made a firm decision not to baptise them, we are still discussing it but we are leaning towards not getting them baptised till they are old enough to decide for themselves if they want to be christians.

    baptism afaik is pretty essential to bringing up children catholic and i don't think the church allows for putting it off.


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