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Institutional abuse was "endemic".. - MERGED

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    #242
    TequilaMockingBird
    Registered Users Posts: 4,392 ✭✭✭TequilaMockingBird


    I've just been talking to my Mum.

    She has asked me to never stop shouting about what happened to her and the other children.

    She wants the catholic church to be stripped of every asset they own, the abusers brought to trial, and all proceeds to go into an education fund for the decendents of the victims.

    She said she just can't think of herself, as a child who came from a loving home, whose mother has just died, being treated as she was. She has to think of it as "a child", not herself.

    She talked about the nuns cutting off one of her long pony tails, and her running down a long dark hallway calling for her Mum, who she knew was dead. She was 8.


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    #243
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    TequilaMockingBird wrote: »
    I've just been talking to my Mum.
    ..........
    She talked about the nuns cutting off one of her long pony tails, and her running down a long dark hallway calling for her Mum, who she knew was dead. She was 8.

    I am sorry but getting a haircut is not even remotely on the same level as the child rape stories that have been coming out. If that was the worst that happened to your mum (& I hope it was) she should consider herself blessed.

    That part in all of this I dont get is why are the rapists not being pursued through the courts ? And I dont mean in an 'lets give them a suspended slap on the wrist' kind of Irish courts way - i mean in the 'lets put them in prison until they die' kind of a way. Sex offenders of children have HORRIFIC levels of recidivism and these men are still knockin about somewhere. I dont understand why the politicians, church and MEDIA have not pursued this aspect of the whole affair. Track these people down and bring them to trial - bring in whatever witness protection measures you like to safeguard the privacy of the victims but put the rapists in court in the full glare of the entire country.


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    #244
    Puddleduck
    Registered Users Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭Puddleduck


    There was a book opened at the weekend which thousands (I think, it said so in the paper) of people signed. There is proof that people arent happy with what went on and that something should be done about it.

    Now I dont expect much from the church, theyve pretty much been putting their hands over their ears and denying everything, but for the government to keep quiet and hope the outrage dies down is ridiculous.

    It says a lot for the state of the country when the people feel helpless under their Government.


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    #245
    corribdude
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭corribdude


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't get the reason why people are tarring all religion with the same brush because of an incident in the Roman Catholic Church. It seems to be throwing out the car with the drunk driver.

    Well Catholicism is we were all brought up with. Its been shown to be a complete crock of sh*te and unbelievably corrupt and evil. Of course the people of Ireland are gonna tar religion because of this scandal because Catholicism is (or was) the religion of Ireland. What religion do you recommend to people who have had enough of being preached to by an organisation that was engaged in the systematic rape and murder of Irish childredn? Maybe Islam? So we can treat women like second classs citizens and have forced marriages? What brand of superstitious fairytales dreamt up by guys in caves a couple of thousand years ago do you recommend to live our lives by?

    And if religion never existed the people of Ireland would be much much much better off. So many people could have avoided the beatings and rape. Do you deny that Ireland wouldn't been better off if religion never existed?


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    #246
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    has the irish republic different laws than the rest of us ? any person or persons who cover up a crime to let the criminal get away with it ,are also committing a crime,-its called accessory after the fact,in most countrys it would meen a jail sentence,---seriously i dont know why people are so suprised that this kind of thing has been happening-any one can tell you that in all of us is the potential to rape or abuse--all it takes is the right circumstances-one having been abused one self ,--two being in a not normal situation[abstaining from normal sex]-- and three having the position and opportunity to comit the crime--when two of these come together you can expect nothing else, the state has no excuse not to have kept a closer watch on these institutions


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    #247
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    corribdude wrote: »
    Of course the people of Ireland are gonna tar religion because of this scandal because Catholicism is (or was) the religion of Ireland.

    Tar all religion based on one (not even one, but a minority within one)? Can't you see how ignorant that is?
    corribdude wrote: »
    What religion do you recommend to people who have had enough of being preached to by an organisation that was engaged in the systematic rape and murder of Irish childredn? Maybe Islam? So we can treat women like second classs citizens and have forced marriages?

    Let me see, there are any number of other Christian denominations. Anglicanism, Presbyterianism, Pentecostalism / Evangelicalism, Methodism, Baptist, Eastern Orthodox, non-denominational. That's before we even get into other religions such as Islam.

    If you have had enough of being preached to by corrupt preachers you can learn for yourselves, use the critical thinking skills you allegedly have instead of tarring all people of faith with the same brush.
    corribdude wrote: »
    What brand of superstitious fairytales dreamt up by guys in caves a couple of thousand years ago do you recommend to live our lives by?

    Mere rhethoric. You have nothing to suggest that Christianity is based on a fairy tale. I have seen it at work in peoples lives, as such I can assess it for what it is, a positive ideology in many peoples lives.
    corribdude wrote: »
    And if religion never existed the people of Ireland would be much much much better off. So many people could have avoided the beatings and rape. Do you deny that Ireland wouldn't been better off if religion never existed?

    I do, I definitely deny this. I know how much it has benefited my own life and the lives of others. Given this, I'm not going to fall into the nonsense trap of blaming all Catholics for a minority of priests and nuns, or blaming people of other Christian denominations for what has happened in Catholicism, or blaming Muslims, Jews, Sikhs and any number of other groups for what happened in Catholicism.

    I think the world is a much, much better place with religion than without overall, and I also think that this applies to Ireland.

    As for abuse and rape, they weren't because of religion, and it's plain ignorant to suggest that such things did not happen outside of the church as well. Actually, they probably did on a much much larger scale. This is a perfect chance for you to pursue your anti-theist agenda isn't it?

    This is the same as me saying that people in Eastern Europe, China, and the Far East would have been better off if atheism never existed.


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    #248
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Jakkass wrote: »
    If you have had enough of being preached to by corrupt preachers you can learn for yourselves, use the critical thinking skills you allegedly have instead of tarring all people of faith with the same brush..

    If you used critical thinking to decide it's very unlikely that you're gonna find a religion at all :pac:


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    #249
    luckat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    How do people feel about the Catholic Church's deal to pay 1% of the compensation to victims of abuse in industrial schools it ran?


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    #250
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    Ah for ****s sake, not another one of these threads.


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    #251
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Bambi wrote: »
    If you used critical thinking to decide it's very unlikely that you're gonna find a religion at all :pac:

    I'd tend to differ :)


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    #252
    luckat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    Jake Thundering Ramrod wrote: »
    Ah for ****s sake, not another one of these threads.

    Yeah, I'm really sorry - it doesn't matter at all that Ireland ran concentration camps for children, sure get over it, lads.


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    #253
    Puddleduck
    Registered Users Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭Puddleduck


    luckat wrote: »
    Yeah, I'm really sorry - it doesn't matter at all that Ireland ran concentration camps for children, sure get over it, lads.

    Why start a new one when you can see peoples opinions on paying for what the church did to these people in the other thread, on after hours. Why not just bring it up on that thread?


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    #254
    Mr.Lizard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭Mr.Lizard


    What is it, €128million or something? 1% of that doesn't seem like much of a gesture on their part.

    On the subject is there anywhere I can get a breakdown on the RCC's income and expenditure in Ireland. I'd love to learn how much they take in from donations and what exactly (or allegedly) it gets spent on.


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    #255
    corribdude
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭corribdude


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Tar all religion based on one (not even one, but a minority within one)? Can't you see how ignorant that is?

    Let me see, there are any number of other Christian denominations. Anglicanism, Presbyterianism, Pentecostalism / Evangelicalism, Methodism, Baptist, Eastern Orthodox, non-denominational. That's before we even get into other religions such as Islam.
    Explain this to me - the experience of Irish people with religion is the RCC. It has been shown to be seriously corrupt and evil. Now do you expect the Irish people to go looking for another religion? Why the hell would we? What do we need it for anyway? People aren't so thick and evil that they need some religion to tell them how to live their lives.

    And are we supposed to treat religion like going to the shops for a loaf of bread or something? You say there are the following organisations - Christian denominations. Anglicanism, Presbyterianism, Pentecostalism / Evangelicalism, Methodism, Baptist, Eastern Orthodox, non-denominational - how do suggest we chose one? Do you think we should read into them a bit and then say 'oh I like the sound of that one, Ill go with that' as if it's dessert in your local restaurant....what is the basis for selecting a religion?
    If you have had enough of being preached to by corrupt preachers you can learn for yourselves, use the critical thinking skills you allegedly have instead of tarring all people of faith with the same brush.
    Learn what for ourselves?? What exactly is the big secret? People know the difference between right and wrong they dont need a religion to tell them it. Its up to ourselves to apply it, which is the case whether a religion tells us to or not.
    Mere rhethoric. You have nothing to suggest that Christianity is based on a fairy tale. I have seen it at work in peoples lives, as such I can assess it for what it is, a positive ideology in many peoples lives.
    Whats it based on then? Solid scientific fact? The whole concept of religion is based on 'faith'. Nice get-out clause for something that can't be proved.
    I do, I definitely deny this. I know how much it has benefited my own life and the lives of others. Given this, I'm not going to fall into the nonsense trap of blaming all Catholics for a minority of priests and nuns, or blaming people of other Christian denominations for what has happened in Catholicism, or blaming Muslims, Jews, Sikhs and any number of other groups for what happened in Catholicism.

    I think the world is a much, much better place with religion than without overall, and I also think that this applies to Ireland.
    So you think overall religion has been positive in Ireland. Tell me what excellent benefits religion has bestowed on Ireland in order to make up for all the years of oppression, abuse, rape and murder? It must be some seriously impressive sh*t if it makes up for all that evil. I can't wait to hear you tell me what these great benefits of religion in Ireland is.
    As for abuse and rape, they weren't because of religion, and it's plain ignorant to suggest that such things did not happen outside of the church as well. Actually, they probably did on a much much larger scale. This is a perfect chance for you to pursue your anti-theist agenda isn't it?
    Name one other organization in Ireland that systematically raped and abused children for decades while simultaneously telling everyone how what's right and what's wrong and how they should be living their lives?
    This is the same as me saying that people in Eastern Europe, China, and the Far East would have been better off if atheism never existed.
    What do you mean if atheism never existed? Atheism isn't a concept or a belief, its just a word used for someone who doesn't believe in a God.


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    #256
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    I think it is sad that the whole thing will be used (by some unscrupulous people with an agenda) as an opportunity to bash the Christian /Catholic church. On balance there is no question that they have been a positive influence on this country. If we had all grown up in an atheist country it would be unrecognisably more harsh to it's core and cold bloodedly consumeristic & lacking in values.

    At the same time the church not only let this happen at the time but in the intervening period and up to today they are completely reluctant to do anything meaningful about it. Negotiating a pitiful amount of compensation while trying to indemnify themselves has done nothing for their credibility, nor has the beligerent, confrontational attitude to the victims. While the sexual predators remained safe and cosy within the church.


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    #257
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    Avatar Snap!


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    #258
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    Church & State 50/50. Both are to blame equally.


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    #259
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    Signature sna-...oh wait...


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    #260
    Puddleduck
    Registered Users Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭Puddleduck


    WindSock wrote: »
    Avatar Snap!

    I know, its really confusing.

    I dont know who I am anymore.


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    #261
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Morlar wrote: »
    I am sorry but getting a haircut is not even remotely on the same level as the child rape stories that have been coming out. If that was the worst that happened to your mum (& I hope it was) she should consider herself blessed.

    it's not a competition ya know. that is one of his mothers memories about what happened and should be respected.


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    #262
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Deleted User wrote: »
    it's not a competition ya know. that is one of his mothers memories about what happened and should be respected.

    What I said was not disrespectful - it was honest. Also I did not say it was a competition. Given the scale of the horror stories that have been surfacing this persons mother is lucky if that was the worst of what she recieved, and I meant what I said about hoping that it was the worst of what she recieved.


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    #263
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    corribdude wrote: »
    Explain this to me - the experience of Irish people with religion is the RCC. It has been shown to be seriously corrupt and evil. Now do you expect the Irish people to go looking for another religion? Why the hell would we? What do we need it for anyway? People aren't so thick and evil that they need some religion to tell them how to live their lives.

    I expect people not to generalise all religion based on one. I would have thought that was reasonable.

    You also make the assumption that those who believe in God, or people who follow religion are "thick, and evil". Am I thick and evil for believing in God? I'm not suggesting this, I'm merely saying that you shouldn't dismiss all religion based on one.
    corribdude wrote: »
    And are we supposed to treat religion like going to the shops for a loaf of bread or something?

    Again, I was merely showing you that there are other Christian religions in comparison to Catholicism, not all are the same, and not all view things the exact same.
    corribdude wrote: »
    You say there are the following organisations - Christian denominations. Anglicanism, Presbyterianism, Pentecostalism / Evangelicalism, Methodism, Baptist, Eastern Orthodox, non-denominational - how do suggest we chose one?

    If anyone was interested in Christianity (I say if because not all are). I would advise them to read the Bible first, and then decide if they want to follow Christ first. If on deciding they want to follow Christ they should try out different churches in the interest of finding one that suits the adherent.

    corribdude wrote: »
    Do you think we should read into them a bit and then say 'oh I like the sound of that one, Ill go with that' as if it's dessert in your local restaurant....what is the basis for selecting a religion?

    Christianity is the faith. Denominations come second generally. I personally chose to follow Christianity because I found that it made a lot of statements that seemed to suss out human nature, it became apparent to me as I read it and as I assessed the world around me that it was the truth.
    corribdude wrote: »
    Learn what for ourselves?? What exactly is the big secret? People know the difference between right and wrong they dont need a religion to tell them it. Its up to ourselves to apply it, which is the case whether a religion tells us to or not.

    If people are interested in Christianity they should learn what the Bible really says instead of what other fallible people have taught them on the pulpit. I agree with you that people have the ability to have conscience, but whether they know truly what is right and wrong is a different concept. Some people deny that there even is a concept of right and wrong in philosophy.

    corribdude wrote: »
    Whats it based on then? Solid scientific fact? The whole concept of religion is based on 'faith'. Nice get-out clause for something that can't be proved.

    No claim concerning God can be proven objectively. The most convincing reason for following God in my case was religious experience. If one cannot prove something, one must indicate for it whether atheist or Christian. I read Christian explanations of many of the doctrines that are discussed in the Biblical text, these made sense. I then read Christian explanations for why it is most likely that God is true. I found these convincing, hence why I have adopted said view.
    corribdude wrote: »
    So you think overall religion has been positive in Ireland. Tell me what excellent benefits religion has bestowed on Ireland in order to make up for all the years of oppression, abuse, rape and murder? It must be some seriously impressive sh*t if it makes up for all that evil. I can't wait to hear you tell me what these great benefits of religion in Ireland is.

    Let me see:

    Providing for the homeless,
    Providing for the poor,
    Providing for the ill,
    Feeding the hungry,
    Being with family members in times of grief,
    Starting the educational system in Ireland (land of saints and scholars),
    Giving people hope where it seemed all was lost,
    Helping with alcoholics and drug addicts,
    Giving us the mechanisms to run our judicial system (borrowed from Judeo-Christian virtues of justice),
    Mercy within the judicial system, influenced by the notion that we have received mercy for Christ, and therefore we are to show mercy to others (Matthew 7)

    These are numerous things in which religions have provided where in many cases secular organisations haven't.
    corribdude wrote: »
    Name one other organization in Ireland that systematically raped and abused children for decades while simultaneously telling everyone how what's right and what's wrong and how they should be living their lives?

    So only organisations are to be considered? Child abuse is something that occurred very much in the general community at the same time. It's an abhorrent act, an act that has nothing to do with Christianity. These people abused their role as church leaders and I think they should be prosecuted to the highest degree.
    corribdude wrote: »
    What do you mean if atheism never existed? Atheism isn't a concept or a belief, its just a word used for someone who doesn't believe in a God.

    What do you mean if religion never existed? Religion isn't a concept or a belief, it's just a word used for someone who recognises the authority of a higher power.

    We could get into discussions like this for the whole thread, I don't think they have much merit.


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    #264
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    Treat them like any normal business or citizen who is criminally liable. If that means the confiscation of their assets, so be it.

    Fucking joke of a country that any deal should even be countenanced in the first place.


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    #265
    Puddleduck
    Registered Users Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭Puddleduck


    Morlar wrote: »
    What I said was not disrespectful - it was honest. Also I did not say it was a competition. Given the scale of the horror stories that have been surfacing this persons mother is lucky if that was the worst of what she recieved, and I meant what I said about hoping that it was the worst of what she recieved.

    Thats not really for you to judge. You cant compare the abuses inflicted on those kids at the time. If she remembers it to this day it has affected her in some way.


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    #266
    dr.bollocko
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    Merged from other thread. Trying to keep the discussion all together.


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    #267
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Puddleduck wrote: »
    Thats not really for you to judge. You cant compare the abuses inflicted on those kids at the time. If she remembers it to this day it has affected her in some way.

    Not to be disrespectful to you or your mother but let's keep this in proportion here. There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever between a child

    a) getting a haricut and

    b) being beaten to within an inch of your life and then buggered by one or more old men and most likely threatened with further violence to remain quiet so that the sexual abuse can continue indefinitely.


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    #268
    luckat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    Puddleduck wrote: »
    Why start a new one when you can see peoples opinions on paying for what the church did to these people in the other thread, on after hours. Why not just bring it up on that thread?

    For a poll, Puddleduck.


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    #269
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Morlar wrote: »
    Not to be disrespectful to you or your mother but let's keep this in proportion here. There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever between a child

    a) getting a haricut and

    b) being beaten to within an inch of your life and then buggered by one or more old men and most likely threatened with further violence to remain quiet so that the sexual abuse can continue indefinitely.

    You don't have to rape someone to be a complete evil prick who's supposedly representing Jesus on earth.


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    #270
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    You don't have to rape someone to be a complete evil prick who's supposedly representing Jesus on earth.

    I did not say that you did. I just think it would be more respectful to keep this discussion in proportion thats all.


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    #271
    Puddleduck
    Registered Users Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭Puddleduck


    Morlar wrote: »
    I did not say that you did. I just think it would be more respectful to keep this discussion in proportion thats all.

    We all know that rape is worse than a 'hair cut' as you put it. To say that the other posters mother was 'lucky' because thats all that happened to her is disrespectful.


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