(Merged) RC Child Abuse Issues/Comments

Quint · 22-05-2009 02:44PM

So out of the Catholics here, who is going to drop money in the collection basket on Sunday morning?

robindch · 22-05-2009 04:45PM

JimiTime wrote: »

Its the hypocrisy and abuse of power.

Not everybody agrees. Bill Donohue, the leader of The Catholic League, produced a weird article in which, amongst much other tendentious nonsense, he said that kicking a child is "hardly draconian" when you bear in mind that it took place "before 1970". Donohue says that the report "demeans the big victims" and that such "distortions" are unfair on the church:

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=33611

Meanwhile, our own Mary Kenny says that she was unaware of what was going on, and that perhaps the worst scandal to engulf the church for many years simply never came her way before (which seems careless for somebody billing herself as a "professional writer on faith and society"):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/may/20/catholic-abuse-ireland

postcynical · 22-05-2009 09:14PM

RAMADAN wrote: »

There is mighty outrage against the priests, brothers and nuns who abused children in the industrial schools. It matters little whether it was physical, sexual or emotional. The uproar is well deserved and these organizations have a lot to answer for.
It is interesting that there was so little public response to the Sexual Abuse and Violence in Ireland report (SAVI) which showed the extent of sexual abuse in Ireland toward children and adults and in which religious/church figures were a tiny minority. Why was there no outcry over the 95% of abuse that goes on in our society not connected to church figures?

Normally I'd look away from stories of abuse. So I also missed this SAVI report. It would have disgusted me but I wouldn't feel as badly as I do about this.

As a Catholic, I trust my Church. I still trust priests and teachers and the state. I'm grateful for the work that the priests do for me. In this report though I feel betrayed, as well as disgusted. This report undermines my trust and the thought that even today bishops might be trying to cover up :mad::mad: These scandals affect me personally, as if my loved ones were the perpetrators of such acts. Guilt is not the right word, but perhaps something similar to how decent Germans feel about the Nazis. I wasn't there but I probably would have supported those who did these acts.

I can't speak for others, but that's why I'm outraged at this and just disgusted at the other.

ironingbored · 22-05-2009 09:15PM

Anyone who saw Colm O'Gorman's BBC documentary can be under no illusions that the RC Church's innate penchant for knowingly harbouring, justifying and transferring pedophiles continues apace. What happened in Ireland is happening in South America and Asia due to the similarly fawning adulation many of the believers have for the "Unholy orders" in their midst.

Nodin · 22-05-2009 09:32PM

robindch wrote: »

Meanwhile, our own Mary Kenny says that she was unaware of what was going on, and that perhaps the worst scandal to engulf the church for many years simply never came her way before (which seems careless for somebody billing herself as a "professional writer on faith and society"):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/may/20/catholic-abuse-ireland

Yes, good old mary dealing with the issue in the most fatous way possible. And of course because she is a 'proffessional writer on faith and society' we may discount the idea she just wasn't thinking clearly when she wrote the piece. That leaves with the idea shes deliberately trying to gloss over 60 odd years of documented clerical abuse. Of course on that level it fails. I'd for instance find it hard to believe that she was unaquainted with the Christian Brothers reputation for violence, which was notorious in all walks of Irish life, even more so when she lived here.

(As a note, she hasn't lived here since the early 1970's, not something immediately apparent from the tripe she coughs up in the Indo.)

O'Coonassa · 22-05-2009 09:41PM

RAMADAN wrote: »

Why was there no outcry over the 95% of abuse that goes on in our society not connected to church figures?

It seems from the media we don't want to even consider this issue. Fingers pointed at the Church and rightly so but that's as far as we're prepared to go on the matter. Never mind that Irish Catholic priests are the worst offenders on the planet, that's apparently all entirely down to the fact that they're Catholic.

wolfsbane · 22-05-2009 09:48PM

ironingbored wrote: »

Anyone who saw Colm O'Gorman's BBC documentary can be under no illusions that the RC Church's innate penchant for knowingly harbouring, justifying and transferring pedophiles continues apace. What happened in Ireland is happening in South America and Asia due to the similarly fawning adulation many of the believers have for the "Unholy orders" in their midst.

Yes, the problem is the nature of the Roman Catholic Church, not the Irish people.

Things were so bad in Ireland because the RCC had the people in thrall. Once one believes the Pope is God on earth and the local priest is his agent, very few are going to question the church or expose its corruption. That's true for North and South Americans, Africans, Asians, whatever. Those who challenge it get it in the neck, are excommunicated or worse. Only when enough opposition exists outside the church can a Catholic dissenter hope for survival/success.

We of course saw something of how that developed at the Reformation, but today we also see brave priests speak up for the abused and against their abusers. They are ostracised by the church authorities, but society protects their civil freedom to continue their campaigns.

When enough Catholics wake up to how corrupt the RCC is, then we will see its power broken in Ireland and other predominantly Catholic countries. Until then, expect to see politicians and prelates connive to minimise any penalties due Holy Mother Church.

May I take this opportunity to remind both atheists and devout Catholic alike that the true Church, the Church revealed in the NT, is not that rich and powerful institution head-quartered in Rome. Our Lord told us, By their fruits you will know them.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:15-20%20;&version=50;

He also told us how He deals with churches that fall into error and do not quickly repent. Judgment and removal. Not survival for 1500+ years.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation%202-3;&version=50;

The Roman Catholic Church is an impostor, pretending to be the Bride, but really drunk with power and abuse. The true Church exists wherever sincere lovers of Christ meet together, and the sum total of them over the ages is the Church.

RAMADAN · 22-05-2009 10:12PM

O'Coonassa wrote: »

It seems from the media we don't want to even consider this issue. Fingers pointed at the Church and rightly so but that's as far as we're prepared to go on the matter. Never mind that Irish Catholic priests are the worst offenders on the planet, that's apparently all entirely down to the fact that they're Catholic.

This is what the SAVI report said in 2002 (taken from the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre site):

• contact sexual abuse in childhood with a further one in ten (10.0
per cent) reporting non-contact sexual abuse. In over a quarter of
cases of contact abuse (i.e. 5.6 per cent of all girls), the abuse
involved penetrative sex — either vaginal, anal or oral sex.

• Boys: One in six men (16.2 per cent) reported experiencing
contact sexual abuse in childhood with a further one in fourteen
(7.4 per cent) reporting non-contact sexual abuse. In one of every
six cases of contact abuse (i.e. 2.7 per cent of all boys), the abuse
involved penetrative sex — either anal or oral sex.

postcynical · 22-05-2009 10:19PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, the problem is the nature of the Roman Catholic Church, not the Irish people.

I don't have the stomach for this argument now, especially on this subject. Let's hope that from your link this is the situation to be cherrypicked:

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.

The second sentence below I agree with, the first I will have to think about. She might sober up after this hangover.

The Roman Catholic Church is an impostor, pretending to be the Bride, but really drunk with power and abuse. The true Church exists wherever sincere lovers of Christ meet together, and the sum total of them over the ages is the Church.

luckat · 23-05-2009 09:34AM

O'Coonassa wrote: »

It seems from the media we don't want to even consider this issue. Fingers pointed at the Church and rightly so but that's as far as we're prepared to go on the matter. Never mind that Irish Catholic priests are the worst offenders on the planet, that's apparently all entirely down to the fact that they're Catholic.

Yes, O'Coonassa, I think you're right in this, at least in the case of the abuse in Ireland in the years covered by the Laffoy report.

Whether the rapists and sadists were Irish in the cases, say, of the Duplessis Orphans or the Aboriginal children stolen from their families in Australia - I don't know that.

But something seems to have gone terribly wrong with our country in the 1930s, when the Catholic Church became all-powerful, and all-corrupt.

(And I think that there is still - to this day, and very visible on this forum - the same kind of attitude that backed the sadism; what you might call the Scumbag Syndrome.

Whenever someone here posts to say "some little bastard nicked my bike" there's an immediate flood of "cut off their nadjers, insert a long pointy object" etc. Ireland is not the land of mercy and kindness. I feel, for the first time in my life, like leaving my homeland forever.)

PDN · 23-05-2009 10:42AM

luckat wrote: »

(And I think that there is still - to this day, and very visible on this forum - the same kind of attitude that backed the sadism; what you might call the Scumbag Syndrome.

Whenever someone here posts to say "some little bastard nicked my bike" there's an immediate flood of "cut off their nadjers, insert a long pointy object" etc. Ireland is not the land of mercy and kindness. I feel, for the first time in my life, like leaving my homeland forever.)

Can you please either back that up or retract? When on the Christianity forum has anything like that been posted? I personally find your accusation offensive as I don't believe it reflects the posts on this forum at all.

robindch · 23-05-2009 10:42AM

robindch wrote: »

In such circumstances, it's not surprising that the church as a whole, and almost everybody in it, were simply unable to see, and unable to appreciate, that they were doing enormous harm to many people.

On that topic, the former archbishop of Milwaukee, Rembert Weakland, wrote in a recent memoir that he thought that abuse was a "moral evil" but not a crime, and that it was something a kid would "grow out of":

http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/05/21/%E2%80%98we-did-not-know-that-child-abuse-was-a-crime%E2%80%99-says-retired-catholic-archbishop/

philologos · 23-05-2009 10:46AM

robindch wrote: »

On that topic, the former archbishop of Milwaukee, Rembert Weakland, wrote in a recent memoir that he thought that abuse was a "moral evil" but not a crime, and that it was something a kid would "grow out of":

http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/05/21/%E2%80%98we-did-not-know-that-child-abuse-was-a-crime%E2%80%99-says-retired-catholic-archbishop/

Well luckily we know that the State defines the laws not the Catholic Church.

O'Coonassa · 23-05-2009 10:47AM

PDN wrote: »

Can you please either back that up or retract? When on the Christianity forum has anything like that been posted? I personally find your accusation offensive as I don't believe it reflects the posts on this forum at all.

People aren't posting in the Christianity forum to say "somebody nicked my bike", he means Boards as a whole I think PDN.

PDN · 23-05-2009 10:48AM

robindch wrote: »

On that topic, the former archbishop of Milwaukee, Rembert Weakland, wrote in a recent memoir that he thought that abuse was a "moral evil" but not a crime, and that it was something a kid would "grow out of":

http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/05/21/%E2%80%98we-did-not-know-that-child-abuse-was-a-crime%E2%80%99-says-retired-catholic-archbishop/

From that link:

Weakland, who retired in 2002 after it became known that he paid $450,000 in 1998 to a man who had accused him of date rape years earlier,

You couldn't make this stuff up!

O'Coonassa · 23-05-2009 10:58AM

luckat wrote: »

Ireland is not the land of mercy and kindness. I feel, for the first time in my life, like leaving my homeland forever.)

Ah we're really only 10 generations from the penal times and having been brutalised, uneducated and poverty stricken. Neither kids nor criminals get treated well against such a backdrop. Things are slowly getting better though, we're gradually moving forwards but we'd do it much quicker if we took an honest look at things. If people like you stay and have families here then you're helping the process.

robindch · 23-05-2009 11:12AM

Jakkass wrote: »

we know that the State defines the laws not the Catholic Church.

Well, the 1937 Constitution of Ireland contains a number of sections that were written by, or under the direct influence of, John Charles McQuaid in the time before he became the all-powerful Archbishop of Dublin. These sections were intended specifically to redress what he perceived as anti-catholic and anti-religious bias in the Constitution of 1921 which he correctly realized was explicitly secular (based, as it was, on many of the ideas of the American Constitution).

Seventy years later, we're still riding out the effects of McQuaid's baleful influence in the entirely stupid blasphemy debate of 2009.

phonebox · 23-05-2009 04:05PM

dvpower wrote: »

But there isn't an equivalence; a child rapist isn't the same as an official who failed to act because he had a 'deferential and submissive attitude' to the church authorities and the official who failed in their duty isn't the same as the individual who chose to block these people out of their mind.

So by your logic then a person who views child porn isn't the same as the abuser.

hiorta wrote: »

The Catholic Church spent 40 years

* moving abusers on, after complaints, to new parishes where they continued to abuse
* hiding documentation of complaints
* denying the evidence of people who had been abused
* refusing to give compensation
* denying any responsibility.

...... luckat

The Roman Catholic Church should be run out of Ireland and made to be judicially examined at the highest European Court.
Their properties should be forfeit and sold with the proceeds going to their victims.

This is what needs to be done.

phonebox · 23-05-2009 04:27PM

postcynical wrote: »

In this report though I feel betrayed, as well as disgusted. This report undermines my trust and the thought that even today bishops might be trying to cover up :mad::mad:

Hopefully this will open your eyes to religious orders and the lies they try to spread. Maybe now that you are free from being brainwashed you can see reality.

prinz · 23-05-2009 04:37PM

robindch wrote: »

Well, the 1937 Constitution of Ireland contains a number of sections that were written by, or under the direct influence of, John Charles McQuaid in the time before he became the all-powerful Archbishop of Dublin. These sections were intended specifically to redress what he perceived as anti-catholic and anti-religious bias in the Constitution of 1921 which he correctly realized was explicitly secular (based, as it was, on many of the ideas of the American Constitution).

Seventy years later, we're still riding out the effects of McQuaid's baleful influence in the entirely stupid blasphemy debate of 2009.

You obviously weren't paying attention in your Constitutional Law lecture. It was based less on the American Constitution than on the inspiration drawn from the Constitution of the German Weimar Republic. Neither were engaged in a campaign against secularism but in fact sought to erect a social barrier against the spread of Communism, the RCC was seen as one of the strongest weapons available at the time (proven over time). And we all know what Communism brought to the people under it's ubrella.

As for J.C. McQuaid - yes the man was a trumped up fascist type with no regard for anybody but himself.

prinz · 23-05-2009 04:42PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, the problem is the nature of the Roman Catholic Church, not the Irish people.

Things were so bad in Ireland because the RCC had the people in thrall. Once one believes the Pope is God on earth and the local priest is his agent, very few are going to question the church or expose its corruption. That's true for North and South Americans, Africans, Asians, whatever. Those who challenge it get it in the neck, are excommunicated or worse. Only when enough opposition exists outside the church can a Catholic dissenter hope for survival/success.

We of course saw something of how that developed at the Reformation, but today we also see brave priests speak up for the abused and against their abusers. They are ostracised by the church authorities, but society protects their civil freedom to continue their campaigns.

When enough Catholics wake up to how corrupt the RCC is, then we will see its power broken in Ireland and other predominantly Catholic countries. Until then, expect to see politicians and prelates connive to minimise any penalties due Holy Mother Church.

May I take this opportunity to remind both atheists and devout Catholic alike that the true Church, the Church revealed in the NT, is not that rich and powerful institution head-quartered in Rome. Our Lord told us, By their fruits you will know them.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:15-20%20;&version=50;

He also told us how He deals with churches that fall into error and do not quickly repent. Judgment and removal. Not survival for 1500+ years.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation%202-3;&version=50;

The Roman Catholic Church is an impostor, pretending to be the Bride, but really drunk with power and abuse. The true Church exists wherever sincere lovers of Christ meet together, and the sum total of them over the ages is the Church.

Such ecumenical spirit. That kind of rabid anti-Catholicism is not a true and fair representation of any Christian I have met.

wolfsbane · 23-05-2009 08:23PM

prinz wrote: »

Such ecumenical spirit. That kind of rabid anti-Catholicism is not a true and fair representation of any Christian I have met.

You need to get out more.

Or better still - stay home and read the New Testament to see what the real Church is like, and what Christ says about how He will preserve it.

wolfsbane · 23-05-2009 08:32PM

postcynical said:

Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Yes, the problem is the nature of the Roman Catholic Church, not the Irish people.
I don't have the stomach for this argument now, especially on this subject. Let's hope that from your link this is the situation to be cherrypicked:
Quote:
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
The second sentence below I agree with, the first I will have to think about. She might sober up after this hangover.
Quote:
The Roman Catholic Church is an impostor, pretending to be the Bride, but really drunk with power and abuse. The true Church exists wherever sincere lovers of Christ meet together, and the sum total of them over the ages is the Church.

Yes, I too have hopes and prayers for any sincere member of today's RCC.

But it cannot apply to the RCC as a church - it has had 1500+ years to repent, and has refused. It has added heresy to heresy, claiming ever more power for itself; and in practice it has abused the innocent and protected the guilty generation after generation, century after century. Christ does not give more than a generation to repent.

santing · 24-05-2009 04:23PM

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/church-has-no-money-says-ahern-1749273.html

And I always thought that the RC Church was one of the richest institutions in Ireland. In my town they own at least 50% of the town centre... paid for and given to them by the people of Ireland.
What do you think? Should the RC Church be required to hand over more money/assets?

Genghiz Cohen · 24-05-2009 04:38PM

santing wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/church-has-no-money-says-ahern-1749273.html

And I always thought that the RC Church was one of the richest institutions in Ireland. In my town they own at least 50% of the town centre... paid for and given to them by the people of Ireland.
What do you think? Should the RC Church be required to hand over more money/assets?

Is that only the Irish branch of the RC Church that has been looked at?

homer911 · 24-05-2009 07:15PM

In a sense he is right - asset rich and cash poor!

It's the level of assets that people have issue with, and how much better use they could be put to with the world's poor, among other issues closer to home..

O'Coonassa · 24-05-2009 07:53PM

If the Pope is skint how come he wears Gucci and lives in a palace?

Galvasean · 24-05-2009 11:34PM

O'Coonassa wrote: »

If the Pope is skint how come he wears Gucci and lives in a palace?

That's one thing I always wondered. If the Pope is meant to be teaching the word of Jesus why does he wear all that gold? It's not particularly humble.

xxborderline · 25-05-2009 01:51AM

Galvasean wrote: »

That's one thing I always wondered. If the Pope is meant to be teaching the word of Jesus why does he wear all that gold? It's not particularly humble.

Bling Bling !

I'll bet he wears PRADA !

:):):)

randylonghorn · 25-05-2009 02:54AM

homer911 wrote: »

In a sense he is right - asset rich and cash poor!

True enough, perhaps, but there are ways round this.

Just to take one example, the State (through the NUI) hands over a substantial sum of money every year to the church (St. Patrick's, Maynooth) for the use of certain buildings on the South (old) Campus of NUI Maynooth.

If that was waived, it would represent a substantial saving on state expenditure in these tough times. Or, indeed, some of it could be used to develop the University.

There are other examples of where the church and the religious orders are in receipt of substantial revenues from buildings (including from the State coffers). There are also many church-owned buildings which are under-used or not used at all, many of them in prime urban locations in Dublin or around the country. See where I'm going with this?

Now, I'm not suggesting that the State doesn't have a responsibility too ... of course it does. But if the original agreement was, as we're been told, that the church would fork out approx. 25% of the bill, then that should have been applied to the final bill, not to the estimated bill.

As a matter of justice and of morality, the church should step forward at this stage with some kind of offer.