(Merged) RC Child Abuse Issues/Comments

xxborderline

sorella wrote: »

Of the Child Abuse issues


And there are no excuses; it was deliberate, chosen, planned. By many but not all Orders.

I think all orders knew what was going on. It is kinda too late for an apology now.

prinz

xxborderline wrote: »

I think all orders knew what was going on. It is kinda too late for an apology now.

Because? And that relates to both assertions.

postcynical

phonebox wrote: »

Hopefully this will open your eyes to religious orders and the lies they try to spread. Maybe now that you are free from being brainwashed you can see reality.

I see that you got yellow-carded for that patronising remark. My experiences of religious orders has always been very positive and that's part of the reason that I find this whole revelation disturbing. It does not challenge my faith in God, but it certainly challenges my faith in the Church (and in humanity:().

postcynical

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, I too have hopes and prayers for any sincere member of today's RCC.

Thank you, we need them.

But it cannot apply to the RCC as a church - it has had 1500+ years to repent, and has refused. It has added heresy to heresy, claiming ever more power for itself; and in practice it has abused the innocent and protected the guilty generation after generation, century after century. Christ does not give more than a generation to repent.

In the future I will take you up on this point. I've no mood to defend the Catholic Church now, we are in apologetic mode. Despite the evil which the political institution has brought, even in recent history, the teachings of the RCC are defensible. In another thread and in the future perhaps we can outline our major divergences. All Christians should be focussed on Christ and my Church guides me towards Christ. So we will probably finally agree;)

ynotdu

Hi,I watched questions and answers tonight and was particulorly struck by the man in the audience who is now an O.A.P.He had been in a home as a child and all he suffered is as real&painful to him now as it was then.The demon memories never gave him any peace.

How shocking that the 12 orders&cori announced they will not revisit the 10% of the compensation bill agreed by Govt&church.
I wont revisit the argument that money cannot undo the mental health issues created by these institutions.

Purely as a way of atonement they should have left themselves virtually skint to show they genuinely have regrets.
They have no credibility as either Christians or Catholics.
I dont go along with the defence that so many are/did good,I am sure if they have all that much courage they can walk away from their order(with all the worldly comforts they get)at whatever price it costs them.

As John Bowman said politics is politics.Morality is what these priests/nuns are supposed to do,they are being selfish cowards!

I think the election of the current pope was a disaster(an old frail man) trying to do what should have been the job of a much younger healthier dynamic man.A kick-ass pope was badly needed to save the Catholic Church.

Finally I would like to suggest that NOBODY give any money at mass or any other way until these *Christian*orders do the right thing.

Bduffman

PDN wrote: »

I find it much more objectionable that my taxes help fund the continuing Roman Catholic educational system.

I have no problem at all with the fact that my taxes go towards compensating the victims of child abuse. I choose to live in a country that has historically abdicated its responsibility to educate its children and so I accept that my taxes go towards righting that wrong. I would willingly pay much higher taxes to fund a proper State-run secular educational system.

I totally agree with you about paying higher taxes to fund a proper state-run secular education system (is that a first? :pac:)
However, I still have to disagree on the other point. Certainly if there was no other way of thismoney being paid the sytate should step in. I find it hard to believe that the money is not there somewhere in the RCC.

Bduffman

dvpower wrote: »

If the state holds some responsibility, then it must follow that the state should pay some compensation and this compensation must come from the exchequer, funded by taxpayers. Where else?

I believe the RCC should pay. Obviously you disagree.

dvpower wrote: »

If you think that the state through the taxpayers shouldn't have to pay, then why the RCC through its members? If the Church has to stump up more cash, then this will need to come from somewhere (sale of land and property, diverted from charitable programmes, collected from parishoners, ...).

One thing is for certain, the money isn't going to come directly from the pockets of perpetrators. That would be justice, but justice isn't on offer; only compensation.

How would the RCC members have to pay? Do the church collect taxes now? If parishioners voluntarily continue to contribute to the RCC that is their business - fools & their money are easily parted.

SoccerMom

Bduffman wrote: »

If parishioners voluntarily continue to contribute to the RCC that is their business - fools & their money are easily parted.

I think you've hit upon something here. If the Government can't or won't nationalise the religious orders' assets then maybe we could start a campaign to encourage people to stop making ANY contributions to the Catholic Church and it's institutions. This might get CORI to step up to the plate. If there's one thing that matters to the Catholic Church it's money.

O'Coonassa

Bduffman wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that the money is not there somewhere in the RCC.

Vatican City must be worth a few Euros I'd say. Why does a Church even need a Country? Wasn't it the Devil himself who tempted Jesus with such things

Flamed Diving

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Vatican City must be worth a few Euros I'd say. Why does a Church even need a Country? Wasn't it the Devil himself who tempted Jesus with such things

Ditto the modern super-churches you see in the US.

bokspring71

The saddest thing about this is the realisation that nothing has changed. The Church is still protecting the monsters who perpetrated this torture, and the State seems to be backing them up in allowing them to do so.

The Church seems to think it is above the law, and the state encourages them by conspiring with them to remain so.

We learn nothing.

SoccerMom

bokspring71 wrote: »

The saddest thing about this is the realisation that nothing has changed. The Church is still protecting the monsters who perpetrated this torture, and the State seems to be backing them up in allowing them to do so.

The Church seems to think it is above the law, and the state encourages them by conspiring with them to remain so.

We learn nothing.

That's what I'm saying; hit them where it hurts. We should all refuse to make ANY contributions to the Church until they do the right thing.

PDN

SoccerMom wrote: »

That's what I'm saying; hit them where it hurts. We should all refuse to make ANY contributions to the Church until they do the right thing.

So are you giving any contributions at present?

SoccerMom

PDN wrote: »

So are you giving any contributions at present?

Occasionally - but probably never again - after watching Q & A last night and after listening to that disgusting representative of CORI on RTE Radio this morning.

dvpower

me wrote:

If the state holds some responsibility, then it must follow that the state should pay some compensation and this compensation must come from the exchequer, funded by taxpayers. Where else?

Bduffman wrote: »

I believe the RCC should pay. Obviously you disagree.

I don't disagree that the RCC should pay their share (elsewhere I suggested a 50/50 split and a return of capitation grants paid by the state).

If you're suggesting that the RCC should pay the state's liability, then I do disagree.

Bduffman wrote: »

How would the RCC members have to pay? Do the church collect taxes now? If parishioners voluntarily continue to contribute to the RCC that is their business - fools & their money are easily parted.

I was trying to point out that any money that the Church pays needs to come from somewhere. It likely that some of this would have to be diverted from charitable programmes, this being one of the church's major areas of buisiness. Some of this money would likely originate from ordainary people dropping coins into the plate at Sunday mass. Nonetheless, I do think that they need to pay a whole lot more than they have. Some of the orders should disband, liquidate their assets and pass them on. The Christian Brothers in particular, in my view, have failed in their mission and should pack up - maybe a topic for a different thread.

By the way, I don't think parishioners are fools. As an atheist, I think they are in error, but they are my friends and family, and possibilly yours too.

kelly1

SoccerMom wrote: »

Occasionally - but probably never again - after watching Q & A last night and after listening to that disgusting representative of CORI on RTE Radio this morning.

Who do you think is going to pay for lighting, heating, electricity, communion supplies, candles etc? What is the priest supposed to live on? Man does not live on bread alone but try getting by without it!

Fanny Cradock

Bduffman wrote: »

How would the RCC members have to pay? Do the church collect taxes now? If parishioners voluntarily continue to contribute to the RCC that is their business - fools & their money are easily parted.

Less with the "fools" accusation.

Handsome Bob

I'll try to concentrate on the Church as much as I can without insulting any followers;

One of the reasons I left Catholicism (but not THE reason) is because of child abuse. For a while my feelings on the subject had went missing to the point that I was beginning to forget why I left the church. But the last two weeks have reinvigorated those feelings and the one true over-riding feeling that has come over me is bewilderment. Bewilderment at how an organisation, that had preached Jesus's message of love and compassion, could feel the need to protect child abusers. Did they feel that it would have a devastating impact on the religion? If anything, I believe followers would have been proud if these sadists and paedophiles were hung out to dry by the Church Hierarchy. So I find it absolutely bewildering and hard to fathom the level of stupidity of the Catholic Church in their actions over this issue. Their actions were directly related to keeping a vice grip hold over this country and they should now pay the price for such underhanded ,and to be quite frank, sinister tactics.

If they have any respect for themselves and for their followers the Church Hierarchy will hold their hands up and accept responsibility for their own actions. That can only be done by letting the public see the level of their regret, and THAT can only be done by paying their victims what they deserve. If they have to sell their assets, then so be it.

A Primal Nut

A lot of people are missing the point. The Catholic Church are pretending they care, apologising, etc., but the fact is there are priests are still doing all the same things in Africa, and the pope and all his cardinals don't care or have any interest in doing anything about it. The same pope who they tell us is appointed by a loving God. How can anyone take this corporation seriously?

Rev Hellfire

A Primal Nut wrote: »

A lot of people are missing the point. The Catholic Church are pretending they care, apologising, etc., but the fact is there are priests are still doing all the same things in Africa, and the pope and all his cardinals bum chums don't care or have any interest in doing anything about it. The same pope who they tell us is appointed by a loving God. How can anyone take this corporation seriously?

Care to provide evidence to back up any of these generalisations and half truths ?

robindch

SoccerMom wrote: »

representative of CORI on RTE Radio this morning.

Here she is on renegotiating the €1.3b deal:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0526/morningireland_av.html?2550199,null,209

Bduffman

dvpower wrote: »

I was trying to point out that any money that the Church pays needs to come from somewhere. It likely that some of this would have to be diverted from charitable programmes, this being one of the church's major areas of buisiness. Some of this money would likely originate from ordainary people dropping coins into the plate at Sunday mass. Nonetheless, I do think that they need to pay a whole lot more than they have. Some of the orders should disband, liquidate their assets and pass them on. The Christian Brothers in particular, in my view, have failed in their mission and should pack up - maybe a topic for a different thread.

I would like to know how much of the churches money goes to 'charitable programmes'. Looking at the wealth the RCC has worldwide I would be sceptical.
And the money that is dropped into the plate tends to go to the upkeep of the church, the priest, etc. etc. If this wasn't given then they would have to fund all that out of their own coffers wouldn't they? No harm.

Bduffman

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Less with the "fools" accusation.

I was using the well known phrase 'a fool & his money...etc' to indicate that I would strongly disagree with anyone supplying money to the RCC. Obviously it wasn't meant as an insult.

robindch

Bduffman wrote: »

I would like to know how much of the churches money goes to 'charitable programmes'.

This came up a while ago. The CofE gives around 4% (see here), and I'd imagine that catholic church gives something similar overall. As far as I can make out, donations from evangelical outlets typically give around 1%, though this can vary upwards and downwards.

shindig-jp

Care to provide evidence to back up any of these generalisations and half truths ?

http://is.gd/EVO7

All together now 1-2-3

Lead us "Not" into temptation but deliver us from evil

I asked a mate of mine Euro/African how he ended up in Ireland . He told me he was born in Africa and his father was a priest but put him up for adoption .

ros244

Quote:
Care to provide evidence to back up any of these generalisations and half truths ?

I'm not trying to defend generalisations and half truths here, but I find it a bit ironic to talk about providing evidence in matters of abuse as suggested below. Is that not one of the most sickening things of all. Here we are years down the line unable to 'provide evidence' of what went on in our own country, so we have to talk about monetary compensation for those who were victimised. I bet every one of those victims would prefer if the allegations were investigated at the time in order to 'provide evidence' for criminal convictions now, and not a paltry monetary recompense to make them feel better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Primal Nut
A lot of people are missing the point. The Catholic Church are pretending they care, apologising, etc., but the fact is there are priests are still doing all the same things in Africa, and the pope and all his cardinals bum chums don't care or have any interest in doing anything about it. The same pope who they tell us is appointed by a loving God. How can anyone take this corporation seriously?


Just like any company found to have been involved in criminal activity, the blame should fall on management for not having the right systems in place. Jail sentences right to the top is the only way to get these 'systems' changed so in another 20 years we don't have other countries having these same occurences.
Turning blind eye to these events is nothing short of crimes against humanity.

Zuiderzee

I dont know all the details, but after watching Q&A and listening to CORI on radio my gut feeling is

1) This Sunday, people should simply not attend mass or give funds to the church

2) If People are angry and upset should use the internet to arrange something like silent peaceful protests outside the churches or parish houses, particularly of the orders who were involved in abuse

3) Keep up the boycott until the compensation and apologies are in place
The agreement seems to be ****. Re-negotiate

4) All 18 orders involved in abuse should be asked to leave the state, certainly the CBS should be disbanded.

5) Hierarchy to resign, they failed in their duty of care.

randylonghorn

dvpower wrote: »

I was trying to point out that any money that the Church pays needs to come from somewhere.

Rather than repeating what I said in another thread (or in this multi-merged one now? ... I iz confused! )

Comment

Clarification

dvpower wrote: »

Nonetheless, I do think that they need to pay a whole lot more than they have ...

The Christian Brothers in particular, in my view, have failed in their mission and should pack up ...

Agreed and agreed.

O'Coonassa

dvpower wrote: »

I was trying to point out that any money that the Church pays needs to come from somewhere. It likely that some of this would have to be diverted from charitable programmes, this being one of the church's major areas of buisiness. Some of this money would likely originate from ordainary people dropping coins into the plate at Sunday mass. Nonetheless, I do think that they need to pay a whole lot more than they have. Some of the orders should disband, liquidate their assets and pass them on. The Christian Brothers in particular, in my view, have failed in their mission and should pack up - maybe a topic for a different thread.

But the Vatican apparently has 500 million euros handy to splash out on a solar power station http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601130&sid=aN2RJ9ob3OoY and that's without selling any assets.

No money for it's victims though :mad:

TouchingVirus

It was good to see this doing the rounds on the blogs today, but it needs more exposure so I'm posting it here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4