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LaVeyan Satanism
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Hivemind187 wrote: »Considering it is one of the single most stand out parts of its content it is very suprising that you dont remember why the statement you made (quoted below) lends to the evidence that you didnt actually read the book and made a statement from an assumption rather than from a position of knowledge.
I've highlighted the major problem so you can correct your knowledge gap more easily.
And i`ll highlight the most important part of my last post, that may help you to move on from this sorry episode:FFS!
I read it properly, but a very long time ago, and tbh remember very little of it, so I plead forgiveness for making a mistake. And really, it`s such a small matter, a hardly think i`m digging myself into a pit. It`s not like I now have go out and commit hara-kiri now is it. Get a life!0 -
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Elliemental wrote: »And i`ll highlight the most important part of my last post, that may help you to move on from this sorry episode:
Ooooooh ... someones wounded ego is showing.
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You're certainly furthering the Satanist cause by being so bloody aggressive, aren't you, Urizen?
At least I made an effort to look it up and learn about it. All I said was what it seems like to me. I didn't say "oh it's just a retarded religion for a bunch of wannabe goth idiots" now did I? I said it seems like (aka, not IS) a goth's version of Atheism, because essentially it's Atheism made dark and anti-Bible, now, isn't it? At the core? To deny that would be a bit odd. I know it's about ceremony and ritual but honestly.. what's the point?
Go back and read a few posts by persons who are better informed than yourself. Frankly getting into a row with someone over a topic you've only a passing familiarity with is daft for both those involved.
You have to admit, that your characterisation wasnt exactly a friendly one now was it? Attemtping to moderate your tone does little to hide the opinion you were trying to convey.If you don't believe in god, you don't believe in god, what's the point in dressing it up with the trappings of religion-- especially when the motive is to go against a specific religion.
Again ... this has been explained. Don't be a lazy reactionist, go and read the information. There have been at least 2 threads about satanism on boards before, I know because I started them both.All I'm saying is that it reminds me of the days in highschool when the "goths" were going around talking about being Satanists and wiccans and pagans and all the like just to make themselves feel so anti-Christian and moody and dark, to feel like they were going against the grain.
Well at least you can admit that you are allowing your past prejudices and encounters to colour your present ones.
Stop for a second and ask yourself a question. If it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck but has a degree from MIT and holds down a day job as a marketting consultant for a multi-national ... is it actually a duck? Or someone in a duck-suit?Still, my point is: you're giving out because no one's educating themselves about it, well, I at least looked it up and made an effort to understand it-- and I said multiple times in the post I agree with quite a bit of it, I just don't see the point of all the magicky ceremonial religious bits, why not just be? Why subscribe? Especially when its followers are apparently so bloody venomous to people who are at least making an attempt, regardless of their opinion at the end of it all.
You made a small effort but clearly didnt do enough. You have repeatedly stated that you "dont get why" about the ceremonies or the garb or the gothic themes. Its not as if this is arcane knowledge we're dealing with here. It's all fairly well explained in earlier posts on this thread.
As for being venomous. Frankly, painting the entire group with that brush smacks of someone who is reacting rather than thinking. Christians are known to be venomous towards atheists - this doesnt mean that all christians are venomous. Some muslims strap dynamite to themselves asnd blow up innocent children - this doesnt mean that all muslims are jihadi.
Some Satanists are venomous, in fact it is a tennet of the philosophy to be so towards those whom annoy you, however it doesnt mean that all satanists are inherently vitriolic.
My point is, Urizen jumped the gun a fair bit by being reactionary to the comments you made - however you are just as guilty of being arrogant and condescending. Urizen has explained his reasons for being annoyed (ones I can understand), he's reletively new to the lifestyle. He bit his tongue back a few posts ago. He reacted to a post because he didnt read it fully, you reacted to a post of his because you obviously hadnt read the thread fully.
Equality, its an amazing thing in action
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Hivemind187 wrote: »Ooooooh ... someones wounded ego is showing.
You remind me way too much of my old Sociology lecturer. Pedantry of the highest order;)0 -
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Hivemind187 wrote: »Go back and read a few posts by persons who are better informed than yourself. Frankly getting into a row with someone over a topic you've only a passing familiarity with is daft for both those involved.
You have to admit, that your characterisation wasnt exactly a friendly one now was it? Attemtping to moderate your tone does little to hide the opinion you were trying to convey.
Again ... this has been explained. Don't be a lazy reactionist, go and read the information. There have been at least 2 threads about satanism on boards before, I know because I started them both.
Well at least you can admit that you are allowing your past prejudices and encounters to colour your present ones.
Stop for a second and ask yourself a question. If it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck but has a degree from MIT and holds down a day job as a marketting consultant for a multi-national ... is it actually a duck? Or someone in a duck-suit?
You made a small effort but clearly didnt do enough. You have repeatedly stated that you "dont get why" about the ceremonies or the garb or the gothic themes. Its not as if this is arcane knowledge we're dealing with here. It's all fairly well explained in earlier posts on this thread.
As for being venomous. Frankly, painting the entire group with that brush smacks of someone who is reacting rather than thinking. Christians are known to be venomous towards atheists - this doesnt mean that all christians are venomous. Some muslims strap dynamite to themselves asnd blow up innocent children - this doesnt mean that all muslims are jihadi.
Some Satanists are venomous, in fact it is a tennet of the philosophy to be so towards those whom annoy you, however it doesnt mean that all satanists are inherently vitriolic.
My point is, Urizen jumped the gun a fair bit by being reactionary to the comments you made - however you are just as guilty of being arrogant and condescending. Urizen has explained his reasons for being annoyed (ones I can understand), he's reletively new to the lifestyle. He bit his tongue back a few posts ago. He reacted to a post because he didnt read it fully, you reacted to a post of his because you obviously hadnt read the thread fully.
Equality, its an amazing thing in action
This is probably one of the most ridiculous posts I've read on boards (and that includes stuff by mysterious).
a) My ONLY two posts in the thread are 1) the initial post and 2) the post where I explained that what I said wasn't offensive, how on EARTH is that starting a row..? Wtf?! Defensive much?
b) It wasn't exactly an unfriendly one, either. It was pretty moderate, considering this is the Atheism forum and not a religious one, if you think that was being offensive you really need a reality check. It was a harmless comment yet you went bloody nuts about it. I gave my point of view, that's what it looks like to me, deal with it.
c) Why would I bother studying a religion I find to be absolutely ridiculous, in the same way I find Scientology (and Christianity, and basically any other religion, ever) ridiculous? I just found a wikipedia article, thought it was interesting, and posted it up here, it doesn't mean I'm attacking your religion, just means I find it weird because it's basically just Atheism all dressed up in a ceremonial coat. I couldn't be bothered looking up boatloads of different posts here because honestly.. I just plain don't care enough. It was originally meant for another thread anyway.
d) Past "prejudices?" There's a BIG difference between factual observation and prejudice. The kids during highschool were idiots who just wanted to be all dark and cool and mysterious and have all these silly little rituals while denouncing mainstream Christianity and slapped on the Satanism label to freak people out. I said it REMINDS ME OF, I didn't say it WAS, and you can call that "moderating my comments" all you bloody well please but I know what I'm saying and I know the intent behind it, so don't put words into my mouth. I have the right to believe Satanism is silly. Nought to do with prejudice, mostly to do with the fact that I think all religion is silly. Makes no difference to how I view the followers as individuals.
Me saying I "don't get why" isn't so much saying I don't understand. It's saying it's not my ideal and in my view it's utterly useless, pointless, and trivial, as is any other religion or cult or sect or whatever the hell you'd like to call it.
e) When on earth did I paint anyone with any brush in my original post? I painted the idea of the religion with a brush, sure, same way as I paint any other, but when did I target any individual, ever? And as for my second post, I was speaking to Urizen and Urizen alone, implying that he may have more success in making people understand things about his version of Satanism if he didn't attack anyone who didn't immediately bow down to his viewpoint of it.
Absolutely stupid discussion tbh. I never once insulted anyone who followed the religion, I simply stated how it appeared to me, so terribly sorry if it was "condescending" but it's the same bloody way I'd speak about Scientology (and I reckon most people here would too), and because I stated my view of it I immediately got jumped all over for one single post.
Ridiculous.
Edited to add, my post is FAR, FAR from the most offensive in the thread, yet I was the only one targeted. Interesting. :rolleyes:0 -
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Hivemind187 wrote: »Its a pity, you are probably a really nice person in real life, its just you are coming off as a highly strung, self righteous anthropomorphic migraine right now.
I'll help you out here because as much as I am enjoying you exhibiting precisely the behaviors you have criticised in others it suits my purposes to do so.
Your principal errors are;
1) You display no willingness to accept that something you said may have upset someone yet you demand that no one treat you in a similar way.
2) You have formed reductionist opinions and expressed them while openly admiting that you have no more than a passing familiarity with the subject.
3) You have openly stated that you have not read the rest of the thread and apparently care not to.
4) You are having an argument with someone who went to bat on your behalf.
Evidence is as follows;
You honestly dont see how that is dismissive, reductive and potentially insulting? I have insulted a lot of religions and doctrines so I know it when I see it, this looks an awful lot like it.
I'm personally not bothered by it but can you see why someone else may feel attacked or reduced?
A ridiculous conclusion that removes the responsibility of being a jerk from christians and places it on the shoulders of the Satanist. Your conclusion shows you have only a passing familiarity and is no better than concluding that the jews run all the banks after reading a right-wing web page.
It is also inconsistant with your own analysis previous to this where you stated
Which is quite a good summary of the philosophy in a "nuts and bolts" kind of way.
Post 15 explains much of the stuff folks tend not to get upon first contact with the philosophy and would do you well to read as a condensed and accurate explanation (that I wrote it notwithstanding). Posts 16,17,18 and 19 continue the discussion very well, expanding on some aspects.
Post 29 is where Urizen gets a little upset and vents his/her frustration. He is set stright in posts 30 and 31. He/she kicks off again a little in post 35 which I dealt with in post 36.
Urizen relaxed and seems to have had a change of heart from all out indignation to contemplating the actual progress made in gaining a better acceptance in post 37.
In post 43. You return and lay into Urizen who has already dropped the matter and hopefully learned not to be so quick to "smash the other cheek" in favor of getting to the root of the problem before deciding whether its worth verbally battering someone. It has to be said, you were a little late to the party by some 23 and a half hours. More than enough time to read back 5 posts.
Should I continue answering your declarations and accusations or do you get what I am trying to point out to you?
And you aren't? Self-delusion is a beautiful thing.
I'm willing to accept people may be offended by offensive things. Unfortunately, that wasn't an offensive thing.
I think the major misunderstanding here is that we're talking on two entirely different terms, or at least that's what I've gathered from your rather incoherent and consistently off-topic ramblings.
When I'm talking about Satanism giving Atheism a bad name, I mean the perceived notion of Satanism. I don't give a damn about the denomination of Satanism, the teachings, whatever the hell you like. I'm saying that people hear the word Satanist and they are going to think the worst. If Atheists start going around saying they're Satanists to "stick it" to the proverbial Christian "man," it's only going to do worse for the Atheist reputation which is currently on incredibly shaky ground as it is. Pairing it with perceived devil-worship is only going to worsen things for the rest of us.
Do you understand, or am I going to have to keep simplifying until I'm basically writing a children's novel?
Again, really don't give a damn about the rest of the thread because that is not what any of this is about, so I've really no clue why you're referencing posts made AFTER my original comment while attacking the original comment-- do I really have to break down the fact that I can't time-travel again? Seriously?
Use your brain, please, and try to focus on the topic at hand.
I'm actually starting to wonder if you've read a single thing I've said, and if you're confusing someone else with me.0 -
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