LaVeyan Satanism

liah · 16-05-2009 6:51am #1

Just over from a thread in PI about a Catholic who's freaked out by his either Satanist or Atheist friend, got me doing some research.

Found LaVeyan satanism, and to be honest it just seems like a Goth's version of Atheism, simply putting on the Satanism tag to appear "dark" or whatever the whole Goth appeal is, and then magic thrown into the mix for the hell of it.

Has rules like:

Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
When in another’s lair, show them respect or else do not go there.
If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat them cruelly and without mercy.
Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
Do not take that which does not belong to you, unless it is a burden to the other person and they cry out to be relieved.
Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
Do not harm little children.
Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask them to stop. If they do not stop, destroy them.

It's fairly alright, if not very tongue-in-cheek, and the magic bit is a bit funky.

There's also this:

Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!
Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!
Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

Which I find interesting. Satan as a representation of a collective force rather than a being. Only thing I hate is that stupid capitalization of "He," but that's a petty hate.

And then there's their 9 Satanic Sins;

Stupidity — The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.
Pretentiousness — Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn’t applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. This is on equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone’s made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.
Solipsism — Projecting your reactions, responses, and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are can be very dangerous for Satanists. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us, and requires constant vigilance, lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As it has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.
Self-deceit — It’s in the “Nine Satanic Statements”, but deserves to be repeated here. It is another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it’s fun, and with awareness. But then, it’s not self-deceit!
Herd Conformity — That’s obvious from a Satanic stance. It’s all right to conform to a person’s wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely, instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.
Lack of perspective — Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints: Know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.
Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies — Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality it’s something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.
Counterproductive Pride — That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: If it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you’ve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, "I’m sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow," then do it.
Lack of Aesthetics — This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time, so they are discouraged in a consumer society; but an eye for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It’s not what’s supposed to be pleasing: It’s what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one’s own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.

Again, other than the whole magic thing, it seems relatively reasonable and not at all like the stereotype of Satanism and quite a lot more like simple Atheism with an anti-Christian targeted twist and a touch of narcissism.

More in general here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism

I'm not sure what to think of this. I think Atheists parading around under the guise of Satanism for the sake of Gothic appeal can really only give Atheism a bad image and lead to more confusion. Might actually explain a lot about why so many Christians think Atheism and Satanism are one and the same, when in most cases they're not.

Thoughts?

dlofnep · 16-05-2009 6:56am

"When in another’s lair, show them respect or else do not go there".

Is this a religion for Bears?

liah · 16-05-2009 7:00am

dlofnep wrote: »

"When in another’s lair, show them respect or else do not go there".

Is this a religion for Bears?

Goths, bears, what's the difference?

orestes · 16-05-2009 7:14am

Satanism is as close to athiesm as christianity is, they are polar opposites, that's the whole point

Rev Hellfire · 16-05-2009 7:14am

Seems no different to the 101 other 'new-age' rubbish out there.
It's simply juvenile wishful thinking which I'd imagine most of them grow-up out of and are fairly embarrassed about in later years.
Ohh looks at me, I gots the magiks powers.

There are times I can understand where the more militant atheists are coming from.

Zillah · 16-05-2009 8:32am

I'm a pretty big fan of La Vey Satanism. I find the principles refreshingly practical and I'd have officially joined years ago were it not for two things; 1, I could just follow any principles that appeal to me anyway without having to join someone else's group and 2, the stupid bloody inclusion of magic rituals. Seriously, what the hell is that about? I never understood the baffling juxtaposing of a practical down to earth ethical system based on socially responsible selfishness and magic rituals.

orestes wrote: »

Satanism is as close to athiesm as christianity is, they are polar opposites, that's the whole point

Do you actually know what La Vey Satanism is? It's an atheistic religion. It was designed as a secular alternative for people who still desire the structure of religion in their lives.

Stercus Accidit · 16-05-2009 8:34am

I was under the impresion lavey satanism was a form of atheism, don't be fooled by the name, there is no magical devil involved, satan refers to the self. I'd have to refamiliarise myself with the whole concept, but last i recall was the satanism title was to snub the catholic church. @zillah, yeah, the rituals never fully made sence to me, is it a poke at the other rituals religions have? A form of indoctrination? A bit of a laugh? But saying that, most atheists would find a lot of similarities between this and their own ideas. Its just a bit odd the way it is packaged.

AtomicHorror · 16-05-2009 11:59am

orestes wrote: »

Satanism is as close to athiesm as christianity is, they are polar opposites, that's the whole point

Not this form of Satanism. The Satan bit is just symbolic, they don't actually believe in higher powers of any form. I think even the majick bit is meant to be sorta symbolic too. It's basically atheism with a lot of ceremony built into it. The choice of symbolic deity is surely meant to piss off the major religions and probably serves to attract a whole lot of juvenile morons to the club too. But's not all that far from conventional atheism and certainly not the opposite of Christianity any more than atheism is.

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI · 16-05-2009 12:00pm

Satanism is not as close to atheism as Christianity is, it is atheism.

But I wouldn't consider it as much an atheist philosophy as much as an Objectivist (in the sense of Any Rand) one. In fact, Anton LaVey pretty much said as much that it was just Rand's philosophy dressed up with lots of rituals.

It's mainly attractive to people who like tradition and rituals, but aren't religious, so Satanism is something they can adhere to and whose rituals they can follow without actually believing. The name Satanism is confusing as obviously it would imply worshipping Satan, a religious figure, but Satan is merely symbolic of those who would reject tradition Christian religion morals, i.e. Satan was arrogant, rebelled against God, didn't see why God was automatically above him, we're talking Satan here in a Milton's Paradise Lost sense, Lucifer as the protagonist and people saying "well actually, he isn't that bad, is he?".

AtomicHorror · 16-05-2009 12:01pm

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

I was under the impresion lavey satanism was a form of atheism, don't be fooled by the name, there is no magical devil involved, satan refers to the self. I'd have to refamiliarise myself with the whole concept, but last i recall was the satanism title was to snub the catholic church. @zillah, yeah, the rituals never fully made sence to me, is it a poke at the other rituals religions have? A form of indoctrination? A bit of a laugh? But saying that, most atheists would find a lot of similarities between this and their own ideas. Its just a bit odd the way it is packaged.

I think the rituals are a recognition of the importance of ceremony to humans. There's a lot to do with accepting the human animal in their philosophy (which is distinct from acting like any other animal) and a part of that is understanding and accepting human psychology. Ceremony is important to us- it helps us remember important events such as initiations. Hence secular ceremonies such as graduations etc.

Stercus Accidit · 16-05-2009 1:27pm

Maybe, personally it makes little sense to me, I've never put much weight on ceremony of any kind, graduation included, but I understand your point.

I accept plenty of aspects of the human animal, but some aspects are throwbacks, such as the beliefs in powers, superstitions etc.

For example, my father was a follower of the magpie superstition, saying hello to them out of habit for good luck, he's atheist, but this habit remained from child hood.

I learned this, and did it myself for a while, I applied a bit of logic (didn't take much) and stopped, but I understand the human aspect, feeling something may affect you, doing something that might prevent that, and the associated guilt and relief feelings that affects on us.

I lump ceremony in with this, the importance of the perfect wedding, the perfect graduation, these important events which objectively, have no importance at all. If LaVey followers want to engage this aspect of themselves and feed it, that craves such things, they can fire ahead, and I agree with many of the human nature accepting elements of that ideology.

But I put greater value on logic, and the repression of some elements of our psychology, fear of the unknown, believing in powers and gods, and general impressionability associated with these. It sometimes drives one to extreme cynicism, but there is a balance, between what instincts to reject, and which ones to accept.

But thats a whole new pandoras box of philosophical questions, maybe not for this thread, but a reason I wouldn't throw myself into something like the LaVey ideology.

Overblood · 16-05-2009 1:34pm

Hey at least it has a rule against child abuse, something the ten commandments or the torah lacks.

I like this one:

If someone bothers you, ask them to stop. If they do not stop, destroy them.

:eek:

Borneo Fnctn · 16-05-2009 2:09pm

I'd consider joining but I don't have a lair. They'd all make a show of me.

robindch · 16-05-2009 5:03pm

I kinda like this one:

Some guy wrote:

Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

Hivemind187 · 16-05-2009 5:43pm

Magick/Ritual/ceremony etc

The issue of ritual, ceremony and "magick" in LeVay satanism is one that, without fail, always comes up when the subject is discussed.

Essentially, the Satanist indulges in the practice of specific ritual and ceremony to feed the instinctive, base need he/she feels to engage in such habits in the full knowledge that such this are irrational and any belief that they hold actual supernatural power is laughable.

It is simply because, according to the Satanist doctrine on the subject, human beings are creatures who have a physical need for dogma and pantomime. This isnt without its basis in fact (though I doubt it applies to all humans).

The Satanist doesnt actually believe in god, the devil etc nor in spirits or any of the demons that may be invoked during the performance of a ritual (and the word performance is used with its theatrical meaning). Rather the trappings of mysticism, sigils, dark clothes, inverted crosses etc are all part of the psychodrama deliberately indulged in for the emotional sensations it generates. A bit like watching Lord of the Rings or Rambo then indulging in the private fantasy of being a Ranger or Green Beret. You arent one, but that doesnt mean it it feels any less good to pretend you are.

Its important to remember though that the rituals, ceremonies and "magick" are not essential to being a Satanist. The book itself says "many people are already Satanists, they just dont realise it yet".

Satan as a symbol

Satan, in the CoS brand of Satanism (and there are numerous variations) does simply represent an ideal. Almost like a charicature. Similar to the likes of Apollo or other Greek demi-gods, Satan is the icon into which is invested all of the things this particular philosophy finds to be virtuous.

There is catagorically no belief that Satan is an actual entitity beyond that of a metaphor.

Satan was chosen mostly because of the judeo-christian relationship with the character. Satan (from the Hebrew "Shaitan") represents an accusatory being, one who points the finger at the establishment (in this case Yahweh) and accuses him of failure, hubris and inconsistency. It is precisely this rebellious, self reliant and unflinching personification that the modern Satanist wishes to invoke.

Like any form of idolisation (football players, great scientists, actors, military generals etc) it is the attempt to model oneself on a specific set of characteristics which one finds to be laudible.

Relationship to Christianity

LaVey specifically intended for the entire set up the CoS to be a parody of the more established western relgions. It is an act of rebellion against what he saw as being the hypocricy of banging ones chest in a Church on a single afternoon about how holy you are, then going out to act like a savage, base animal that same evening.

Beyond using it as a mirror to judge ones own behavior there is little if any relitionship.

Ayn Rand & Atlas Shrugged

I doubt very much that Anton actually admitted that it much of his philosophy was taken from the above title however the paralells are unmistakable and indeen the old man did even reference Rand in numerous publications.

LeVay was a conniving, self-agrandizing personality but he made to secret of this fact. Plagarism however may be one crime that will be tagged to his name wheter it is true or not.

What is important though is where LeVay and Rand differed. Rand's Atlas Shrugged is a work of Libertarian conservativism, and certainly a book worth reading (if a little dry throughout). LeVay was different in that he was seeking to include the very basest components of humanity, our primal drives, into a system of personal dogmas which would facilitate the so-called spiritual growth of the individual - or at least alleviate the often crushing guilt people can feel for their desires which most theologies deem "sinful".

Accusations of it being juvenile etc

... are most notably made by those who know little if anything about the subject. Judging any subject without first trying to understand some of its intricies and nuances is a critical failing on the behalf of any rational individual.

Relationship to other philosophies

To be honest this is where I get a little hazy due to my lack of a complete understanding of a lot of other philosophies. Suffice to say that the instigator, LaVey, was quite well read (or at least well read enough to fake it) and had considered his position well. He made no claims that Satanism was a perfect system to live by, he certainly seemed to believe that Satanism was better than the other systems because it was founded on the willingness to evolve and adapt and should that mean the adoption of different elements of different philosophies from Nihilism to Objectivism to Liberalism and Libertarianism then so be it.

Personally I was never too fond of the rituals or the magick etc, not really my scene (and it certainly nebver worked lol) but I can't find fault with the philosophy from my own perspective. Whether it makes me a "good" person etc I have no idea, but at least I'm having fun

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI · 16-05-2009 6:40pm

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Ayn Rand & Atlas Shrugged

I doubt very much that Anton actually admitted that it much of his philosophy was taken from the above title however the paralells are unmistakable and indeen the old man did even reference Rand in numerous publications.

LeVay was a conniving, self-agrandizing personality but he made to secret of this fact. Plagarism however may be one crime that will be tagged to his name wheter it is true or not.

What is important though is where LeVay and Rand differed. Rand's Atlas Shrugged is a work of Libertarian conservativism, and certainly a book worth reading (if a little dry throughout). LeVay was different in that he was seeking to include the very basest components of humanity, our primal drives, into a system of personal dogmas which would facilitate the so-called spiritual growth of the individual - or at least alleviate the often crushing guilt people can feel for their desires which most theologies deem "sinful".

Great post by the way, you've probably cleared up pretty much everything for everyone.

Only quibble is this quote from LaVey would suggest that he freely admits the connection to Rand "[Satanism is] just Ayn Rand’s philosophy, with ceremony and ritual added." (Quote taken from wikipedia, which cites a printed work for the quote).

To me the similarities with Rand's philosophy is why I've never really clicked with Satanist thought. While I'm all for looking after number one, I still think helping people is a good deed in itself, regardless of rewards, and I don't think concepts such as love can be simply reduced down to a simple matter of "mutual self-interest".

Hivemind187 · 16-05-2009 6:55pm

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

Great post by the way, you've probably cleared up pretty much everything for everyone.

Cheers

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

Only quibble is this quote from LaVey would suggest that he freely admits the connection to Rand "[Satanism is] just Ayn Rand’s philosophy, with ceremony and ritual added." (Quote taken from wikipedia, which cites a printed work for the quote).

He may have later on. Its honestly not something I remember reading in the core texts but I may have to browse through "The Devils Notebook" or "The Devil Speaks" again.

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

To me the similarities with Rand's philosophy is why I've never really clicked with Satanist thought. While I'm all for looking after number one, I still think helping people is a good deed in itself, regardless of rewards, and I don't think concepts such as love can be simply reduced down to a simple matter of "mutual self-interest".

I know what you mean.

The Satanism point of view on this is along lines very similar to those explained by reciprocal altrusim. Essentially it boils down to helping people can be beneficial to you in that it will either result in good things happening to you (direct reciprocation from the helped individual or indirect reciprocation from another who feels gratitutde towards you for the help you gave another) or it will give you a sense of personal satisfaction and/or happiness.

Philisophically speaking there is no "good" from the perspective of the Satanist, nor any "evil". At least not in the classical sense of the words.

"Love" is covered in the Satanic Bible. Its not really viewed as being of mutual self interest, rather being something to be indulged in to its fullest in whichever manner provides the greatest pleasure and profit. Similar but its the nuances that separate them.

Zillah · 17-05-2009 7:04am

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

To me the similarities with Rand's philosophy is why I've never really clicked with Satanist thought. While I'm all for looking after number one, I still think helping people is a good deed in itself, regardless of rewards, and I don't think concepts such as love can be simply reduced down to a simple matter of "mutual self-interest".

I don't think you're quite getting it. You don't need to rationalise or justify anything in Satanism, beyond the notion that you should indulge yourself. If you have a desire to go out feeding soup to the homeless then off you go, that's Satanic selfishness right there.

In one text I read La Vey explains how giving your life for someone can be a "selfish" act in the Satanic sense if you do it for the right reasons. I'd say a Satanist might disapprove of a fireman risking his life for strangers out of a vague sense of obligation...but throwing yourself in front of a truck to save your partner can be a perfectly selfish act in the La Vey sense.

bushy... · 17-05-2009 7:31am

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

For example, my father was a follower of the magpie superstition, saying hello to them out of habit for good luck, he's atheist, but this habit remained from child hood.

I learned this, and did it myself for a while, I applied a bit of logic (didn't take
much) and stopped,

Maybe magpies are like crows and remember people , if so not such a daft superstition really

http://depts.washington.edu/ipem/seminar/readings/Marzluff_etal_MS.pdf

Phototoxin · 17-05-2009 8:41am

#
# Pretentiousness — Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn’t applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. This is on equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone’s made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.

How can it be the 'goth version of Atheism' yet Pretentiousness is a sin? DOES NOT COMPUTE

about 75% of goths are freaking pretentious and immature anyway

Zillah · 17-05-2009 8:45am

Phototoxin wrote: »

about 75% of goths are freaking pretentious and immature anyway

The other 25% are painfully aware of the futility of life, the universe and everything? :pac:

Nodin · 17-05-2009 9:22am

Zillah wrote: »

Do you actually know what La Vey Satanism is? It's an atheistic religion. It was designed as a secular alternative for people who still desire the structure of religion in their lives.

I actually thought he made it up to pull wimmin....

Hivemind187 · 17-05-2009 9:30am

Phototoxin wrote: »

How can it be the 'goth version of Atheism' yet Pretentiousness is a sin? DOES NOT COMPUTE

about 75% of goths are freaking pretentious and immature anyway

Goth ... Punk ... Geek ... all of these things have been hijacked and corrupted at some point and consequently, have lost nearly all meaning now. Sad really.

The old school of punks, goths and geeks were not like the pathetic, whinging wastes of social-welfare we see today. Emo-kids seeking sympathy like a junkie seeks heroin. Leeching on the empathy of others with their concocted "problems".

"Oh noes, I'm not skinny enough to fit into my 8 year old sisters jeans, I'll have to cry and find someone to give me all of their attention for a few hours so I can feel better."

Believe me ... the human detritus you see hanging around temple bar has about as much to do with Goth as Satanism does with Christianity. They might look superficially similar but the components are entirely different.

Hivemind187 · 17-05-2009 9:33am

Nodin wrote: »

I actually thought he made it up to pull wimmin....

I think that probably had something to do with it, but how is that different from any other religion?

At least he didnt try to tell everyone that he was attempting to get them into heaven :P

Otaku Girl · 17-05-2009 5:19pm

La Vey was an exhibitionist with a penchant for blatant intellectual plagiarism.

Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

If both parties wait for the mating call then nothing will happen and his definition if solipsism is....different.

Solipsism — Projecting your reactions, responses, and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are can be very dangerous for Satanists. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us, and requires constant vigilance, lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As it has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.

Hivemind187 · 17-05-2009 6:48pm

Otaku Girl wrote: »

La Vey was an exhibitionist with a penchant for blatant intellectual plagiarism.

Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

If both parties wait for the mating call then nothing will happen ...

I think you are misunderstanding the idea here.

Sexual advances, in the context it is written, is intended to mean initiating unwelcome physical contact. Which would include rape, child abuse etc. The kinds of things that are genreally frowned upon by both Satanists and society in general.

Also, I'm none too sure what your initial statement is meant to imply. Are you making an accusation against the man or a statement of fact because I see neither citation nor reference.

Otaku Girl wrote: »

and his definition if solipsism is....different.

Solipsism — Projecting your reactions, responses, and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are can be very dangerous for Satanists. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us, and requires constant vigilance, lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As it has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.

Again, not entirely sure what you are trying to say here.

Are you suggesting that his line of thinking is flawed or that he had a critical defect in his comprehension of the word solipsism? It appears he had a quite clear understanding of the word since his focus is the idea of "doing unto others as you would have them do to you". A clear fallacy that projecting your own standards and morals upon others will, by dint of example, will make them behave the way you feel is appropriate.

In other words, the world only exists in my mind therefore all people should operate the way I want them to (like myself). He's not saying this is a conscious act but it certainly has merit as an observed position.

Nodin · 17-05-2009 7:56pm

Hivemind187 wrote: »

I think that probably had something to do with it, but how is that different from any other religion?

At least he didnt try to tell everyone that he was attempting to get them into heaven :P

O I'm not saying its a bad thing. I mean if you compare it to scientology in terms of greed and organised fleecing of the faithful, its on the side of the angels, so to speak..

Hivemind187 · 17-05-2009 11:30pm

Nodin wrote: »

O I'm not saying its a bad thing. I mean if you compare it to scientology in terms of greed and organised fleecing of the faithful, its on the side of the angels, so to speak..

Lol, nice irony.

Urizen · 19-05-2009 12:51am

... Wow. Whoever started this thread, I'd love to meet you. I spend a HUGE amount of time dealing with ignorance like yours. And it still makes me sick to my stomach. Got a lot of growing up to do. Most of you here seem to be reasonable, but that first comment...

As a LaVeyan Satanist, I'm genuinely worried that this kind of idiocy persists. And that it's still seemingly ok to insult and mock this religion, but cause an uproar when it's your own. You have my pity for your small mindedness, and my contempt for your hypocrisy.

Hail Satan

Zillah · 19-05-2009 1:49am

Urizen wrote: »

... Wow. Whoever started this thread, I'd love to meet you. I spend a HUGE amount of time dealing with ignorance like yours. And it still makes me sick to my stomach. Got a lot of growing up to do. Most of you here seem to be reasonable, but that first comment...

As a LaVeyan Satanist, I'm genuinely worried that this kind of idiocy persists. And that it's still seemingly ok to insult and mock this religion, but cause an uproar when it's your own. You have my pity for your small mindedness, and my contempt for your hypocrisy.

Hail Satan

Ok, first of all it's hilarious that a Satanist is playing the whole "Don't mock my religion!" card. Grow a spine, your weakness is worthy of disdain. Secondly, the original post is quite pro-Satanist so I have no idea what you're even complaining about.

Dades · 19-05-2009 8:48am

Urizen wrote: »

... Wow. Whoever started this thread, I'd love to meet you. I spend a HUGE amount of time dealing with ignorance like yours.

Maybe you should spend some some of that time here dispelling the ignorance, rather that stamping your feet in indignation.

Elliemental · 19-05-2009 8:59am

Well, to believe in Satan, you also must believe in God. One validates the other, so IMO LaVey (and I actually read his Satanic Bible a few years back!), is just as misguided as any Christian.

Hivemind187 · 19-05-2009 9:13am

Elliemental wrote: »

Well, to believe in Satan, you also must believe in God. One validates the other, so IMO LaVey (and I actually read his Satanic Bible a few years back!), is just as misguided as any Christian.

You should probably go back and read the book because ... yep ... your ignorance is showing (cover it up quick before someone else notices). :rolleyes:

Zillah · 19-05-2009 9:40am

Elliemental wrote: »

Well, to believe in Satan, you also must believe in God. One validates the other, so IMO LaVey (and I actually read his Satanic Bible a few years back!), is just as misguided as any Christian.

And Elliemental stumbles at the gate! LaVey Satanists don't believe in a literal Satan so I seriously doubt you've read the book, and if you have then I mourn for your reading comprehension.

Urizen · 19-05-2009 7:47pm

I see your reading skills have already been discussed. Too bad. Have some good stuff stored up for that.

In response to the other thing. I've been a Satanist for 3 years now. I've spent that time trying to explain to people what the philosophy is, calming those who get abused and, as you so aptly put it, dispelling ignorance.

But when you're met with this kind of attitude, day after day, patience tends to wear down now and then. Believe me, that little rant was tame. There's a hell of a lot worse out there than the one who started this up.

So I may come off defensive, I admit. Just know that it's justified.

Zillah. Pro Satanist you say.

liah wrote: »

to be honest it just seems like a Goth's version of Atheism, simply putting on the Satanism tag to appear "dark" or whatever the whole Goth appeal is, and then magic thrown into the mix for the hell of it.

Maybe you have a different notion of approval than I do.

Hivemind187 · 19-05-2009 8:29pm

Urizen wrote: »

I see your reading skills have already been discussed. Too bad. Have some good stuff stored up for that.

In response to the other thing. I've been a Satanist for 3 years now. I've spent that time trying to explain to people what the philosophy is, calming those who get abused and, as you so aptly put it, dispelling ignorance.

But when you're met with this kind of attitude, day after day, patience tends to wear down now and then. Believe me, that little rant was tame. There's a hell of a lot worse out there than the one who started this up.

So I may come off defensive, I admit. Just know that it's justified.

Zillah. Pro Satanist you say.

Maybe you have a different notion of approval than I do.

Bro, believe me. I have been through this with Satanism on boards.ie before. That IS tolerant as far as it goes.

In fairness though, its not as if the trappings arent deliberately misleading is it? The theatrics, the resonant tones in the chamber, the invocation of the four corners, the list of infernal names ... when you throw in the bullheaded individualism and tendency towards spiteful humor its no suprise that everyone assumes that every satanist is an atheist with a Joss Whdeon fixation.*

As galling as it is to be confronted with the same blind ignorance and stereotyping many of its detractors claim is directed at them by others, Satanists must accept that it is all part of the show. Its a great way to find out who is actually a jerk worthy of disdain and who is capable of at least independent thought.

At least no one is demanding that all mentions of the 'divil be removed from sig's and slapping people with bans for expressing an opinion ... :rolleyes:

*I am well aware of my love of Buffy and Firefly it neednt be pointed out.

Urizen · 19-05-2009 10:31pm

Suppose. It's progress from threats and verbal abuse, at least.

Elliemental · 20-05-2009 9:04am

Zillah wrote: »

And Elliemental stumbles at the gate! LaVey Satanists don't believe in a literal Satan so I seriously doubt you've read the book, and if you have then I mourn for your reading comprehension.

Give us a break, it was about 15 years ago now, an i`m sorry, but there are some who took this guy rather literally (one such person led me to the book in the first place).

Hivemind187 · 20-05-2009 10:22am

Elliemental wrote: »

Give us a break, it was about 15 years ago now, an i`m sorry, but there are some who took this guy rather literally (one such person led me to the book in the first place).

Erm ... his point is that you didnt read it at all or didnt read it properly because what you said is the antithesis of its content...

... but by all means keep digging the pit you are in.

Elliemental · 20-05-2009 10:33am

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Erm ... his point is that you didnt read it at all or didnt read it properly because what you said is the antithesis of its content...

... but by all means keep digging the pit you are in.

FFS! :rolleyes: I read it properly, but a very long time ago, and tbh remember very little of it, so I plead forgiveness for making a mistake. And really, it`s such a small matter, a hardly think i`m digging myself into a pit. It`s not like I now have go out and commit hara-kiri now is it. Get a life!

Hivemind187 · 20-05-2009 10:38am

Elliemental wrote: »

FFS! :rolleyes: I read it properly, but a very long time ago, and tbh remember very little of it, so I plead forgiveness for making a mistake. And really, it`s such a small matter, a hardly think i`m digging myself into a pit. It`s not like I now have go out and commit hara-kiri now is it. Get a life!

Considering it is one of the single most stand out parts of its content it is very suprising that you dont remember why the statement you made (quoted below) lends to the evidence that you didnt actually read the book and made a statement from an assumption rather than from a position of knowledge.

Elliemental wrote: »

Well, to believe in Satan, you also must believe in God. One validates the other, so IMO LaVey (and I actually read his Satanic Bible a few years back!), is just as misguided as any Christian.

I've highlighted the major problem so you can correct your knowledge gap more easily.

Elliemental · 20-05-2009 10:51am

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Considering it is one of the single most stand out parts of its content it is very suprising that you dont remember why the statement you made (quoted below) lends to the evidence that you didnt actually read the book and made a statement from an assumption rather than from a position of knowledge.

I've highlighted the major problem so you can correct your knowledge gap more easily.

And i`ll highlight the most important part of my last post, that may help you to move on from this sorry episode:

FFS! I read it properly, but a very long time ago, and tbh remember very little of it, so I plead forgiveness for making a mistake. And really, it`s such a small matter, a hardly think i`m digging myself into a pit. It`s not like I now have go out and commit hara-kiri now is it. Get a life!

liah · 20-05-2009 10:53am

You're certainly furthering the Satanist cause by being so bloody aggressive, aren't you, Urizen?

At least I made an effort to look it up and learn about it. All I said was what it seems like to me. I didn't say "oh it's just a retarded religion for a bunch of wannabe goth idiots" now did I? I said it seems like (aka, not IS) a goth's version of Atheism, because essentially it's Atheism made dark and anti-Bible, now, isn't it? At the core? To deny that would be a bit odd. I know it's about ceremony and ritual but honestly.. what's the point?

If you don't believe in god, you don't believe in god, what's the point in dressing it up with the trappings of religion-- especially when the motive is to go against a specific religion.

All I'm saying is that it reminds me of the days in highschool when the "goths" were going around talking about being Satanists and wiccans and pagans and all the like just to make themselves feel so anti-Christian and moody and dark, to feel like they were going against the grain.

Still, my point is: you're giving out because no one's educating themselves about it, well, I at least looked it up and made an effort to understand it-- and I said multiple times in the post I agree with quite a bit of it, I just don't see the point of all the magicky ceremonial religious bits, why not just be? Why subscribe? Especially when its followers are apparently so bloody venomous to people who are at least making an attempt, regardless of their opinion at the end of it all.

Hivemind187 · 20-05-2009 11:20am

Elliemental wrote: »

And i`ll highlight the most important part of my last post, that may help you to move on from this sorry episode:

Ooooooh ... someones wounded ego is showing.

Hivemind187 · 20-05-2009 11:31am

liah wrote: »

You're certainly furthering the Satanist cause by being so bloody aggressive, aren't you, Urizen?

At least I made an effort to look it up and learn about it. All I said was what it seems like to me. I didn't say "oh it's just a retarded religion for a bunch of wannabe goth idiots" now did I? I said it seems like (aka, not IS) a goth's version of Atheism, because essentially it's Atheism made dark and anti-Bible, now, isn't it? At the core? To deny that would be a bit odd. I know it's about ceremony and ritual but honestly.. what's the point?

Go back and read a few posts by persons who are better informed than yourself. Frankly getting into a row with someone over a topic you've only a passing familiarity with is daft for both those involved.

You have to admit, that your characterisation wasnt exactly a friendly one now was it? Attemtping to moderate your tone does little to hide the opinion you were trying to convey.

liah wrote: »

If you don't believe in god, you don't believe in god, what's the point in dressing it up with the trappings of religion-- especially when the motive is to go against a specific religion.

Again ... this has been explained. Don't be a lazy reactionist, go and read the information. There have been at least 2 threads about satanism on boards before, I know because I started them both.

liah wrote: »

All I'm saying is that it reminds me of the days in highschool when the "goths" were going around talking about being Satanists and wiccans and pagans and all the like just to make themselves feel so anti-Christian and moody and dark, to feel like they were going against the grain.

Well at least you can admit that you are allowing your past prejudices and encounters to colour your present ones.

Stop for a second and ask yourself a question. If it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck but has a degree from MIT and holds down a day job as a marketting consultant for a multi-national ... is it actually a duck? Or someone in a duck-suit?

liah wrote: »

Still, my point is: you're giving out because no one's educating themselves about it, well, I at least looked it up and made an effort to understand it-- and I said multiple times in the post I agree with quite a bit of it, I just don't see the point of all the magicky ceremonial religious bits, why not just be? Why subscribe? Especially when its followers are apparently so bloody venomous to people who are at least making an attempt, regardless of their opinion at the end of it all.

You made a small effort but clearly didnt do enough. You have repeatedly stated that you "dont get why" about the ceremonies or the garb or the gothic themes. Its not as if this is arcane knowledge we're dealing with here. It's all fairly well explained in earlier posts on this thread.

As for being venomous. Frankly, painting the entire group with that brush smacks of someone who is reacting rather than thinking. Christians are known to be venomous towards atheists - this doesnt mean that all christians are venomous. Some muslims strap dynamite to themselves asnd blow up innocent children - this doesnt mean that all muslims are jihadi.

Some Satanists are venomous, in fact it is a tennet of the philosophy to be so towards those whom annoy you, however it doesnt mean that all satanists are inherently vitriolic.

My point is, Urizen jumped the gun a fair bit by being reactionary to the comments you made - however you are just as guilty of being arrogant and condescending. Urizen has explained his reasons for being annoyed (ones I can understand), he's reletively new to the lifestyle. He bit his tongue back a few posts ago. He reacted to a post because he didnt read it fully, you reacted to a post of his because you obviously hadnt read the thread fully.

Equality, its an amazing thing in action

Elliemental · 20-05-2009 11:42am

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Ooooooh ... someones wounded ego is showing.

You remind me way too much of my old Sociology lecturer. Pedantry of the highest order;)

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 20-05-2009 11:48am

I really regret not supported the satanism forum on feedback now so that this retarded **** would be kept somewhere else.

for gods sake people, satanism? how daring.

Rev Hellfire · 20-05-2009 1:13pm

Captain Mords Spiced Bum wrote: »

I really regret not supported the satanism forum on feedback now so that this retarded **** would be kept somewhere else.

for gods sake people, satanism? how daring.

Careful now, they'll start frowning in your direction soon...

Urizen · 20-05-2009 5:51pm

*frowns*

Hivemind, perfect. Exactly right. Kudos.

liah · 20-05-2009 6:11pm

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Go back and read a few posts by persons who are better informed than yourself. Frankly getting into a row with someone over a topic you've only a passing familiarity with is daft for both those involved.

You have to admit, that your characterisation wasnt exactly a friendly one now was it? Attemtping to moderate your tone does little to hide the opinion you were trying to convey.

Again ... this has been explained. Don't be a lazy reactionist, go and read the information. There have been at least 2 threads about satanism on boards before, I know because I started them both.

Well at least you can admit that you are allowing your past prejudices and encounters to colour your present ones.

Stop for a second and ask yourself a question. If it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck but has a degree from MIT and holds down a day job as a marketting consultant for a multi-national ... is it actually a duck? Or someone in a duck-suit?

You made a small effort but clearly didnt do enough. You have repeatedly stated that you "dont get why" about the ceremonies or the garb or the gothic themes. Its not as if this is arcane knowledge we're dealing with here. It's all fairly well explained in earlier posts on this thread.

As for being venomous. Frankly, painting the entire group with that brush smacks of someone who is reacting rather than thinking. Christians are known to be venomous towards atheists - this doesnt mean that all christians are venomous. Some muslims strap dynamite to themselves asnd blow up innocent children - this doesnt mean that all muslims are jihadi.

Some Satanists are venomous, in fact it is a tennet of the philosophy to be so towards those whom annoy you, however it doesnt mean that all satanists are inherently vitriolic.

My point is, Urizen jumped the gun a fair bit by being reactionary to the comments you made - however you are just as guilty of being arrogant and condescending. Urizen has explained his reasons for being annoyed (ones I can understand), he's reletively new to the lifestyle. He bit his tongue back a few posts ago. He reacted to a post because he didnt read it fully, you reacted to a post of his because you obviously hadnt read the thread fully.

Equality, its an amazing thing in action

This is probably one of the most ridiculous posts I've read on boards (and that includes stuff by mysterious).

a) My ONLY two posts in the thread are 1) the initial post and 2) the post where I explained that what I said wasn't offensive, how on EARTH is that starting a row..? Wtf?! Defensive much?

b) It wasn't exactly an unfriendly one, either. It was pretty moderate, considering this is the Atheism forum and not a religious one, if you think that was being offensive you really need a reality check. It was a harmless comment yet you went bloody nuts about it. I gave my point of view, that's what it looks like to me, deal with it.

c) Why would I bother studying a religion I find to be absolutely ridiculous, in the same way I find Scientology (and Christianity, and basically any other religion, ever) ridiculous? I just found a wikipedia article, thought it was interesting, and posted it up here, it doesn't mean I'm attacking your religion, just means I find it weird because it's basically just Atheism all dressed up in a ceremonial coat. I couldn't be bothered looking up boatloads of different posts here because honestly.. I just plain don't care enough. It was originally meant for another thread anyway.

d) Past "prejudices?" There's a BIG difference between factual observation and prejudice. The kids during highschool were idiots who just wanted to be all dark and cool and mysterious and have all these silly little rituals while denouncing mainstream Christianity and slapped on the Satanism label to freak people out. I said it REMINDS ME OF, I didn't say it WAS, and you can call that "moderating my comments" all you bloody well please but I know what I'm saying and I know the intent behind it, so don't put words into my mouth. I have the right to believe Satanism is silly. Nought to do with prejudice, mostly to do with the fact that I think all religion is silly. Makes no difference to how I view the followers as individuals.
Me saying I "don't get why" isn't so much saying I don't understand. It's saying it's not my ideal and in my view it's utterly useless, pointless, and trivial, as is any other religion or cult or sect or whatever the hell you'd like to call it.

e) When on earth did I paint anyone with any brush in my original post? I painted the idea of the religion with a brush, sure, same way as I paint any other, but when did I target any individual, ever? And as for my second post, I was speaking to Urizen and Urizen alone, implying that he may have more success in making people understand things about his version of Satanism if he didn't attack anyone who didn't immediately bow down to his viewpoint of it.

Absolutely stupid discussion tbh. I never once insulted anyone who followed the religion, I simply stated how it appeared to me, so terribly sorry if it was "condescending" but it's the same bloody way I'd speak about Scientology (and I reckon most people here would too), and because I stated my view of it I immediately got jumped all over for one single post.

Ridiculous.

Edited to add, my post is FAR, FAR from the most offensive in the thread, yet I was the only one targeted. Interesting. :rolleyes:

Hivemind187 · 20-05-2009 6:19pm

liah wrote: »

This is probably one of the most ridiculous posts I've read on boards (and that includes stuff by mysterious).

a) My ONLY two posts in the thread are 1) the initial post and 2) the post where I explained that what I said wasn't offensive, how on EARTH is that starting a row..? Wtf?! Defensive much?

b) It wasn't exactly an unfriendly one, either. It was pretty moderate, considering this is the Atheism forum and not a religious one, if you think that was being offensive you really need a reality check. It was a harmless comment yet you went bloody nuts about it. I gave my point of view, that's what it looks like to me, deal with it.

c) Why would I bother studying a religion I find to be absolutely ridiculous, in the same way I find Scientology (and Christianity, and basically any other religion, ever) ridiculous? I just found a wikipedia article, thought it was interesting, and posted it up here, it doesn't mean I'm attacking your religion, just means I find it weird because it's basically just Atheism all dressed up in a ceremonial coat. I couldn't be bothered looking up boatloads of different posts here because honestly.. I just plain don't care enough. It was originally meant for another thread anyway.

d) Past "prejudices?" There's a BIG difference between factual observation and prejudice. The kids during highschool were idiots who just wanted to be all dark and cool and mysterious and have all these silly little rituals while denouncing mainstream Christianity and slapped on the Satanism label to freak people out. I said it REMINDS ME OF, I didn't say it WAS, and you can call that "moderating my comments" all you bloody well please but I know what I'm saying and I know the intent behind it, so don't put words into my mouth. I have the right to believe Satanism is silly. Nought to do with prejudice, mostly to do with the fact that I think all religion is silly. Makes no difference to how I view the followers as individuals.
Me saying I "don't get why" isn't so much saying I don't understand. It's saying it's not my ideal and in my view it's utterly useless, pointless, and trivial, as is any other religion or cult or sect or whatever the hell you'd like to call it.

e) When on earth did I paint anyone with any brush in my original post? I painted the idea of the religion with a brush, sure, same way as I paint any other, but when did I target any individual, ever? And as for my second post, I was speaking to Urizen and Urizen alone, implying that he may have more success in making people understand things about his version of Satanism if he didn't attack anyone who didn't immediately bow down to his viewpoint of it.

Absolutely stupid discussion tbh. I never once insulted anyone who followed the religion, I simply stated how it appeared to me, so terribly sorry if it was "condescending" but it's the same bloody way I'd speak about Scientology (and I reckon most people here would too), and because I stated my view of it I immediately got jumped all over for one single post.

Ridiculous.

Edited to add, my post is FAR, FAR from the most offensive in the thread, yet I was the only one targeted. Interesting. :rolleyes:

Methinks the lady doth protest too much ...

LaVeyan Satanism

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