Benefits of deep Squats for Knees (and knee injuries)

Dazd_N_Confusd · 16-05-2009 06:15PM

Roper wrote: »

Wow you're cool.

Thank you.

Roper · 16-05-2009 06:19PM

Dazd_N_Confusd wrote: »

I don't know much about the physiology of the human body but rather than take the advice of Irish people, who know **** all about strength training btw, I decided to listen to the internets.

Don't tar everyone with the same labelling brush. There's plenty of Irish people who know plenty about strength training... just not many of them working in your local globo gym.

Dazd_N_Confusd · 16-05-2009 06:21PM

Roper wrote: »

Don't tar everyone with the same labelling brush. There's plenty of Irish people who know plenty about strength training... just not many of them working in your local globo gym.

I'm sorry, I just love generalisations!

What gym do you go to?

Roper · 16-05-2009 06:22PM

Me own.

Dazd_N_Confusd · 16-05-2009 06:25PM

Roper wrote: »

Me own.

I wanted to build one out the back but my dad wouldn't let me get a bigger shed.

Roper · 16-05-2009 06:28PM

Okay.

Dazd_N_Confusd · 16-05-2009 06:34PM

Roper wrote: »

Okay.

You're a nice fella, aren't you?

slicus ricus · 16-05-2009 07:50PM

Dazd_N_Confusd wrote: »

I'm presuming you're all talking about FREE WEIGHT squats?

Smith squats don't ****ing count!

Lol. Yes, we're talking about free weights squats and definately not smith machine squats!

Roper wrote:

Just as an aside to this, squatting would not always be the best option to rehabbing a knee, or to stave off things like tendonitis, at least not two leg squatting. A squat has a predetermined path (obviously enough) and where inflexibility or weakness exist, just squatting may only serve to reinforce those problems.

Squatting is good enough for knee health, but it does get a bad rep because people treat it as some sort of holy grail ("yeah baby I'm squatting today hardcore etc. etc.") without doing the necessary work to stave off imbalance that you must do. So people actually end up injuring their knees, not because squatting is bad, but because the internet tells them they must squat and doesn't tell them about quad/ham imbalances, lower back strength etc. because it's not sexy.

Im not sure entirely what you're recommending here? I get what you mean about quad/ham imbalances and the importance of training hams glutes and lower back to increase strength and stability: Deadlifting and anciliary exercises.

What are the exercises you recommend doing for imbalances as in "the necessary work to stave off imbalances that you must do"?

kevpants · 16-05-2009 08:43PM

slicus ricus wrote: »

Im not sure entirely what you're recommending here? I get what you mean about quad/ham imbalances and the importance of training hams glutes and lower back to increase strength and stability: Deadlifting and anciliary exercises.

What are the exercises you recommend doing for imbalances as in "the necessary work to stave off imbalances that you must do"?

Don't think he's recommending anything. If you have an imbalance then there'd be something specific to do to counter it. You'd have to be diagnosed first though.

RacoonQueen · 16-05-2009 09:17PM

Funny you should post this now, I've 'runners knee' and my kneecaps are both misaligned(one is close to dislocation) and I was doing some deep squats today just off the top of my head(non weighted) initation of a squat is trés painful for me though untill I get past about 30 degrees then I've no more pain, I think I'll stick to my stretches for now but deep squats will definately come into my rehab programme.

Roper · 16-05-2009 11:07PM

Dazd_N_Confusd wrote: »

You're a nice fella, aren't you?

Lovely in fact.

Kevpants says it above.

slicus ricus · 17-05-2009 01:10PM

kevpants wrote: »

Don't think he's recommending anything. If you have an imbalance then there'd be something specific to do to counter it. You'd have to be diagnosed first though.

Ah right, I see what you're saying. From my own perspective on this - I've been diagnosed as having dislocated my knee cap on my left knee (through an MRI scan), although i've yet to look into surgical options to have any damage from that corrected. Initially, I was given exercises to minimise wasting due to inactivity and fluid. Following that, i was advised to squat and deadlift - There were 2 focuses on this: 1st being to strengthen the muscles around the joint; 2nd being to strengthen the hamstrings and glutes to ensure that they were being recruited during activity and supporting the knees as they should be.

I've also been diagnosed by a physio as having patellar tendonitis (often referred to as jumpers knee) on my right knee. This is more or less the same type of thing as tennis elbow, except on your knee. To be honest, this can actually be quite painful at times. The main advise I was given on this one was to rest in between exercise. I was also advised to do one leg, decline 1/4 squats - quite difficult to do and i am still unsure of the benefits of it. I must start doing this exercise again to assess its effectiveness properly!

Hanley · 17-05-2009 05:25PM

Decline squat.... as in standing on a decline and squatting?

Roper · 17-05-2009 07:54PM

slicus ricus wrote: »

Ah right, I see what you're saying. From my own perspective on this - I've been diagnosed as having dislocated my knee cap on my left knee (through an MRI scan), although i've yet to look into surgical options to have any damage from that corrected. Initially, I was given exercises to minimise wasting due to inactivity and fluid. Following that, i was advised to squat and deadlift - There were 2 focuses on this: 1st being to strengthen the muscles around the joint; 2nd being to strengthen the hamstrings and glutes to ensure that they were being recruited during activity and supporting the knees as they should be.

I've also been diagnosed by a physio as having patellar tendonitis (often referred to as jumpers knee) on my right knee. This is more or less the same type of thing as tennis elbow, except on your knee. To be honest, this can actually be quite painful at times. The main advise I was given on this one was to rest in between exercise. I was also advised to do one leg, decline 1/4 squats - quite difficult to do and i am still unsure of the benefits of it. I must start doing this exercise again to assess its effectiveness properly!

Squats and deadlifts for a kneecap dislocation? Really? I'm not saying that's wrong, and I can see where it fits in, but my point above is that squatting, the way most people mean it, is a dual legged, heavily weighted exercise. If you have a problem on one leg, the other leg will take the additional strain that your injurred one can't take. Same with deadlifts, benching, anything like that.

I actually had a similar conversation on Thursday night face to face with another member of this board. The crux of it is that most of the time when you think you're making yourself stronger, you're actually just making your strong bits stronger and your weak bits more out of whack. I've been down this road myself recently (they say physician heal thyself you know, not that I'm a physician) and until I took myself out of the equation and stopped trying to self diagnose, I just reinforced what I was trying to fix.

I'm not trying to píss in your cornflakes, I just think people need to be wary that squats do not necessarily equal knee health, although that would be one of the consensus points of this board. I'm actually blogging about that very point right now if anyone is bored enough to read.

slicus ricus · 17-05-2009 11:11PM

Hanley wrote:

Decline squat.... as in standing on a decline and squatting?

Yep, standing on a decline, one legged. Not sure how I fell about this exercise. Here's a clip of someone doing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY98htXP0O4 It sort of makes sense that he's moving his knee forward as the patella tendin is just below the knee cap.

Roper wrote: »

Squats and deadlifts for a kneecap dislocation? Really? I'm not saying that's wrong, and I can see where it fits in, but my point above is that squatting, the way most people mean it, is a dual legged, heavily weighted exercise. If you have a problem on one leg, the other leg will take the additional strain that your injurred one can't take. Same with deadlifts, benching, anything like that.

Well, my kneecap is no longer dislocated, it eventually resets itself but tracking can be problematic from the dislocation. That's why it's so important to develop the whole quad, hams and glutes. If they are stong and stable, that will make it less like to recur.

I don't understand how one leg could take additional strain when you're squating below parallel. If you are going that deep, you have to go down straight, which would mean the weight is evenly distributed. With deadlifts, they don't really affect your knees that much.

Roper wrote: »

I'm not trying to píss in your cornflakes, I just think people need to be wary that squats do not necessarily equal knee health, although that would be one of the consensus points of this board.

No, they don't necessarily equal knee health, I don't recall ever stating that they do; I merely stated that they can benefit your knees if done properly. If your knees are already damaged, squating is not going to undo the damage. However, if you squat properly (below parallel without moving the knees forward, and breaking with the hips), you will develop increased strength throughout the 4 parts of your quads. This combined with increased strength in your hams and glutes from deadlifting, should provide extra stability around your knee joints, which is definately beneficial.

Roper · 18-05-2009 10:14AM

slicus ricus wrote: »

Well, my kneecap is no longer dislocated, it eventually resets itself but tracking can be problematic from the dislocation. That's why it's so important to develop the whole quad, hams and glutes. If they are stong and stable, that will make it less like to recur.

I think you misunderstood my question. Did a physio prescribe squats and deadlifts for your knee dislocation?

I don't understand how one leg could take additional strain when you're squating below parallel. If you are going that deep, you have to go down straight, which would mean the weight is evenly distributed.

That's just an assumption you're making, and it's false. In every movement you make, part of you is compensating for a weaker part. The squat isn't a perfect exercise and it is not a self correcting one. You may not even be compensating leg to leg, but in your hip, lower back and even upper back.

No, they don't necessarily equal knee health, I don't recall ever stating that they do; I merely stated that they can benefit your knees if done properly. If your knees are already damaged, squating is not going to undo the damage. However, if you squat properly (below parallel without moving the knees forward, and breaking with the hips), you will develop increased strength throughout the 4 parts of your quads. This combined with increased strength in your hams and glutes from deadlifting, should provide extra stability around your knee joints, which is definately beneficial.

Absolutely I agree, they can assist and are of immense benefit. But they're not the holy grail of leg strength.

Hanley · 18-05-2009 11:02AM

Roper wrote: »

But they're not the holy grail of leg strength.

What IS the holy grail of leg strength then?

slicus ricus · 18-05-2009 11:16AM

Roper wrote: »

I think you misunderstood my question. Did a physio prescribe squats and deadlifts for your knee dislocation?

Yes, initially when the swelling was still there and the dislocation hadn't healed yet, I was told to squat with my back against a wall, among other exercises. Following the healing process of the actual dislocation (i.e. when the patella had gone back into place and the swelling had gone), I was told that squats and deadlifts were a excellent exercises to develop the leg muscles in order to provide as much support for the knee joints as possible. Physio reckoned that one of the factors that was worsening the tracking in the knee i'd dislocated was that my glutes and hams were underdeveloped in comparison to my quads (particularly my outer quads). The most effective way of developing the inner quads is squating deep. When it comes to developing the hams and glutes, the most effective exercises are deadlift and again, deep squats.

I reckon that a lot of people have an over/under development scenario with their legs. The way to rectify it is obviously to develop the muscles that are underdeveloped. The way to avoid it is to develop these muscles as equally as possible with correct form and range of motion.

Roper wrote: »

That's just an assumption you're making, and it's false. In every movement you make, part of you is compensating for a weaker part. The squat isn't a perfect exercise and it is not a self correcting one. You may not even be compensating leg to leg, but in your hip, lower back and even upper back.

If your form is good, you won't be compensating for the weaker part. I'd recommend going through the motion of a deep squat (relatively wide stance, feet pointing out a bit) where you keep your knees back, go below parallel and break with the hips (not the knees). I fail to see how you could possibly compensate. The squat isn't just a regular movement, when squating, you are moving in a precise manner to target particular muscle groups/ to recruit certain muscle groups that will allow you to complete the lift.

Yes, the stronger muscles won't be working to their full capability (as they are capable of taking more weight) but as the weaker ones catch up, you can increase the weight. If in doubt, a hammer strength leg press is good as it has 2 independent leg platforms - when you do this exercise, you know that both legs can press a certain amount of weight.

Roper wrote: »

Absolutely I agree, they can assist and are of immense benefit. But they're not the holy grail of leg strength.

Right, so we agree on that then.

Roper · 18-05-2009 11:38AM

Hanley wrote: »

What IS the holy grail of leg strength then?

There is no holy grail of leg strength, other than to have strong and most importantly, balanced legs. Your grail may well be the back squat, but that's because it's your event. Others are back squatting with something else in mind. You're squatting with squatting in mind.

Yes, initially when the swelling was still there and the dislocation hadn't healed yet, I was told to squat with my back against a wall, among other exercises. Following the healing process of the actual dislocation (i.e. when the patella had gone back into place and the swelling had gone), I was told that squats and deadlifts were a excellent exercises to develop the leg muscles in order to provide as much support for the knee joints as possible. Physio reckoned that one of the factors that was worsening the tracking in the knee i'd dislocated was that my glutes and hams were underdeveloped in comparison to my quads (particularly my outer quads).

Right I understand now. Initially I was reading it as the physio reccomending back squats directly after the dislocation. If he was reccomending them as prehab that's different.

I reckon that a lot of people have an over/under development scenario with their legs. The way to rectify it is obviously to develop the muscles that are underdeveloped. The way to avoid it is to develop these muscles as equally as possible with correct form and range of motion.

You're not saying anything there I'd disagree with.

If your form is good, you won't be compensating for the weaker part. I'd recommend going through the motion of a deep squat (relatively wide stance, feet pointing out a bit) where you keep your knees back, go below parallel and break with the hips (not the knees). I fail to see how you could possibly compensate. The squat isn't just a regular movement, when squating, you are moving in a precise manner to target particular muscle groups/ to recruit certain muscle groups that will allow you to complete the lift.

I think you're equating compensation with some sort of voluntary thought process. When you compensate, you're not doing so (most of the time) consciously. You simply don't have that degree of control over your nervous system during heavily weighted exercises. I guarantee you have one leg stronger than the other, or with greater balance than the other, or with a greater range of motion than the other.

Yes, the stronger muscles won't be working to their full capability (as they are capable of taking more weight) but as the weaker ones catch up, you can increase the weight. If in doubt, a hammer strength leg press is good as it has 2 independent leg platforms - when you do this exercise, you know that both legs can press a certain amount of weight.

No, all a leg press will tell you is how strong the front of one leg is versus the other in a very strict plane of motion. Your hips will not be involved and they're probably the place most people have inflexibilities. Your legs will have no need for stabilisation in the ankle or knee.

I'm not intentionally disagreeing with you, and we agree that squats and deadlifts are good for your knees and back, but they are not doing what you think they are.

Dazd_N_Confusd · 18-05-2009 11:40AM

Seriously guys, what would be the best leg strength exercise.

I'd say one legged squats would be pretty tough to beat.

Anyone ever seen them?

Hanley · 18-05-2009 11:50AM

Roper wrote: »

There is no holy grail of leg strength, other than to have strong and most importantly, balanced legs. Your grail may well be the back squat, but that's because it's your event. Others are back squatting with something else in mind. You're squatting with squatting in mind.

C'mon.. nail your flag to the mast.

Given the choice to do only one leg strength exercise, what would you chose and why?

You can still do all your specific rehab and prehab stuff.

rubadub · 18-05-2009 11:55AM

Dazd_N_Confusd wrote: »

I'd say one legged squats would be pretty tough to beat.

Anyone ever seen them?

AKA pistol squats. I find them very difficult, a lot of advanced bodyweight exercises need gymnastic/balance skills. I prefer to work in stable positions and add more weight. I do prefer BW exercises, like dips, chins, pushups but prefer to just add more weight to the basic exercise. You have to be careful of the knees doing pistols, I cannot do a proper one but can see how you could easily go off balance and screw your knee up. A safer option to hit would leg at a time would be lunges or step ups.

I have a table I can do high step ups on which are sort of like pistols, but I can use the lower leg to kick myself upwards at the beginning, and then do a slow negative descent. I do not bother with them much, I think it is more a skill move than resistance training. i.e. I never get DOMs or really feel them hitting me, though I find them hard. While if I do a load of squats I can have DOMs for days.

Roper · 18-05-2009 12:11PM

Hanley wrote: »

C'mon.. nail your flag to the mast.

Given the choice to do only one leg strength exercise, what would you chose and why?

You can still do all your specific rehab and prehab stuff.

I can't imagine why I'd have to pick just one, is there a firing squad? Assuming there was, I'd have to still hedge my bets. I just can't point to one and say that it's perfect.

That said I've never seen anyone who couldn't have benefited from more single leg work.

kevpants · 18-05-2009 02:37PM

Roper wrote: »

In every movement you make, part of you is compensating for a weaker part. The squat isn't a perfect exercise and it is not a self correcting one. You may not even be compensating leg to leg, but in your hip, lower back and even upper back.

+1 you can't squat away an imbalance and 99% of the time the imbalance only shows up through injury not through anything obviously wrong with form.

Roper wrote: »

Absolutely I agree, they can assist and are of immense benefit. But they're not the holy grail of leg strength..

-1 (He giveth then He taketh away)
You pick a guy and train him specifically on one single leg movement for 6 months and I'll take a guy and train him to squat for 6 months. Bet my guy makes more progress strength wise and I couldn't train Mary Harney to eat sausage sandwiches.

Though I do see your point as per your blog of the sexification of squatting. I could make a similar point about MMA becoming the new pro-wrestling though. Just because it has been embraced by a crowd of clowns who, when finished their dinner probably break the plate off the ground and shout "Wooo!", doesn't subtract from it. Squatting hasn't gotten less effective because there are now guys with T-Shirts questioning the sexuality of those who haven't joined the craze.

Roper · 18-05-2009 03:02PM

-1 (He giveth then He taketh away)
You pick a guy and train him specifically on one single leg movement for 6 months and I'll take a guy and train him to squat for 6 months. Bet my guy makes more progress strength wise and I couldn't train Mary Harney to eat sausage sandwiches.

You've missed my point. Try to keep up. I agree, your guy will get stronger. That still doesn't make the squat perfect. You still need single leg movements for a number of reasons. Admittedly less so in powerlifting as you won't spend a lot of time on one leg unless you're at the urinals in one of those figure hugging outfits. Another difficulty is how we test "strong". Oddly it's usually by doing back squats which your guy will obviously win at.

You do have the other bit right though. Nobody breaks at their strong point, and it doesn't take much to overload a muscle or ligament if imbalance exists.

Also I agree, squatting is not devalued by the sort of idiocy that goes along with it now. It's a great exercise, but if it's the only leg exercise in someone's programme then that is not a good programme.

Roper · 18-05-2009 03:10PM

Also, you read my blog. Ah ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha. You're my fan.

kevpants · 18-05-2009 03:25PM

Roper wrote: »

You've missed my point. Try to keep up. I agree, your guy will get stronger. That still doesn't make the squat perfect. You still need single leg movements for a number of reasons. Admittedly less so in powerlifting as you won't spend a lot of time on one leg unless you're at the urinals in one of those figure hugging outfits. Another difficulty is how we test "strong". Oddly it's usually by doing back squats which your guy will obviously win at.

I didn't miss it. I wasn't arguing it was perfect, like you said you can't squat away your troubles. It's the best though. It doesn't need to be better cos nothing else is.

Roper wrote: »

Also I agree, squatting is not devalued by the sort of idiocy that goes along with it now. It's a great exercise, but if it's the only leg exercise in someone's programme then that is not a good programme.

Sure most powerlifters who are judged by their squat alone do other stuff. If you have 200kg quads, 200kg hamstrings, 200kg lower back and 170kg abs you have a 170kg squat. You can't squat it all better.

To use one of my trademark borderline relevant analogies. You can say it takes more than bricks to build a house, you need windows...and other sh1t. But if you only have bricks you can still build some kind of dwelling, but there's no point in sitting behind a pane of glass with some skirting board around you in the pissing rain. So squats are like bricks.... I think. They are heavy, they hurt and other similarities.

Roper wrote: »

Also, you read my blog. Ah ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha. You're my fan.

God I hope you don't ever become famous or publish a book, standing outside Easons pointing and laughing won't please the publishing house.

TKD SC · 18-05-2009 03:42PM

kevpants wrote: »

God I hope you don't ever become famous .

I thought he was already famous :pac:

Roper · 18-05-2009 04:04PM

kevpants wrote: »

I didn't miss it. I wasn't arguing it was perfect, like you said you can't squat away your troubles. It's the best though. It doesn't need to be better cos nothing else is.

Oh it's good we're not arguing that. It's not perfect though.

Sure most powerlifters who are judged by their squat alone do other stuff. If you have 200kg quads, 200kg hamstrings, 200kg lower back and 170kg abs you have a 170kg squat. You can't squat it all better.

That's exactly my point. Maybe you have been paying attention? They don't get a 200kg lower back from squatting, and neither will the guy with the "Squatz4Life" avatar.

To use one of my trademark borderline relevant analogies. You can say it takes more than bricks to build a house, you need windows...and other sh1t. But if you only have bricks you can still build some kind of dwelling, but there's no point in sitting behind a pane of glass with some skirting board around you in the pissing rain. So squats are like bricks.... I think. They are heavy, they hurt and other similarities.

I prefer to think of strength training as a river. Sometimes it flows wide and deep, but sometimes it needs to break into tributaries and small streams to traverse rocky terrain. Sometimes it needs to break it's banks and flood small towns on it's way to the sea. If leg strength is the sea, and squatting is a major tributary, then single leg deadlifts are a small stream, and ab curls are a sewage pipe which feeds directly into a minor but contributing tributary known as core training, then any house or small dwelling that gets in the way will be swamped. That's your small dwelling I'm talking about, the one you built with bricks and no windows. If you had windows you would have seen the floodwaters rising. End of analogy.

God I hope you don't ever become famous or publish a book, standing outside Easons pointing and laughing won't please the publishing house.

I actually do stand outside Easons, but only when other people are signing books and I point and laugh at the people going in.

Vamoose Killers · 18-05-2009 04:07PM

Anyone else cringe when trying to read Roper's posts?

Benefits of deep Squats for Knees (and knee injuries)

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