Benefits of deep Squats for Knees (and knee injuries)

slicus ricus

This is something I have decided to post based on my own personal experience with knee injuries and how proper, deep squatting (below parallel) has greatly helped in terms of stabilising my knee post injury and (re)building muscle around the joint. The main reason I have decided to post this is that I’m hoping it will help other people who have/ had/ will have similar injuries.

Just a bit of background first. I first injured my left knee playing football when I was 16 (im 24 now). The injury was a dislocated patella (knee cap), a painful enough one I might add! There are several types of problems with this type of injury, the primary one being stability. It takes time before your patella can track in the manner in which is it supposed to (think this is called sublaxation) and as a result the muscles around your knee will atrophy. Also, there is a very high chance of recurrence – I have re-injured it 3 times since with each instance being increasingly severe and more damaging to the joint. Most recent time, the physio I went to was convinced that it was a torn cruciate! I have also managed to develop patellar tendonitis in the other knee, which is common enough but can get quite chronic, particularly when required to keep your knee bent for prolonged periods of time!

Since more or less recovering from the most recent dislocation, I have looked at various ways of training my legs. To me (and to others I would imagine), it seemed counter intuitive that deep squatting would help an unstable knee joint. When I came back to training, I thought maybe squatting is not for me and stuck to leg pressing etc. Recently, I then decided to give squatting another shot. I had always been told by trainers to squat to above parallel. As it turns out, I have found through trial and error that this is horrendous advice to give to someone, as you are likely to move your knees forward and you’re only using certain parts of the quads. I decided I wanted to make sure I was going deep as I was given this advice by a friend of mine and I’d also read about it on this forum.

Since I’ve started squatting to below parallel, I have noticed a huge difference. The knee joint is far more stable, as the full range of motion is recruiting all parts of the quads (most notably the part nearest the knee joint on the inside), the glutes, and the hamstrings. It has even helped with the patellar tendonitis on the other knee as well. Obviously, the knee joint will remain damaged (only way to fully repair it would be surgery) but by doing this, I can limit any further damage.

Also, flat shoes are an essential for squatting and deadlifting, far better for the knee joints. Ideally, weight lifting shoes, but converse or boxing/ amateur wrestling boots are good also.

I gotta say that I did get a lot of help and advice on this from the lads on this forum in TF (Degsy, Hanley, and Kevpants) who gave me some good advice on this and were only too happy to check my form for me. When you’re not sure what the right course of action is, it is always very helpful to ask people know their stuff.

As I said this is all personal experience, but I do hope it’s helpful to other people who’ve had knee injuries.

Hanley

It's about time really.....

ronbyrne2005

I injured my knees on smith machine about 5 years ago doing a dodgy form of squat. Had no squat rack in gym at time. Anyway after several years of on and off physio and mri scans etc the surgeon said there was no major problem and was just probably scar tissue on the patellar knees. Went back squating last year and have done squats on and off over last year, starting with lots of bodyweight squats on an incline and going down slow as this stress tendon more and helps its recover.
Have been only training intermittently over past year but back up to squating 120kg for several reps and i am also carrying about 4 stone of fat as gained a load of weight during 2008 from eating too many cheesecakes and pizzas and drinking too much beer. Anyway just good to be back squating properly after several years out.

slicus ricus

Hanley wrote: »

It's about time really.....

Hahaha, yeah i eventually got around to it, some of us are actually doing some study like :pac:

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

Have been only training intermittently over past year but back up to squating 120kg for several reps and i am also carrying about 4 stone of fat as gained a load of weight during 2008 from eating too many cheesecakes and pizzas and drinking too much beer. Anyway just good to be back squating properly after several years out.

Good stuff with getting back to squatting. How deep are you going with them? I cannot stress enough how going deep (below parallel) makes a huge difference to your knees and the muscles that support the joint.

Also, the flat footware has made a big difference; squatting with runners on is pretty aweful for your knees due to the heel on them.

ladowack

slicus ricus wrote: »

Also, the flat footware has made a big difference; squatting with runners on is pretty aweful for your knees due to the heel on them.

well weightlifting shoes which you mention above have an awfull lot bigger heel on them than most runners, its the hard heel on the weight lifting shoe that makes them useful (and best for close stance hi bar squats) flat heel is better for people who squat while engaging their hamstrings.

slicus ricus

ladowack wrote: »

well weightlifting shoes which you mention above have an awfull lot bigger heel on them than most runners, its the hard heel on the weight lifting shoe that makes them useful (and best for close stance hi bar squats) flat heel is better for people who squat while engaging their hamstrings.

I've never actually worn a pair of weightlifting shoes but i was under the impression that they were relatively useful for squatting and deadlifting. Perhaps somebody who wears them could outline the benefits for powerlifting?

The shoes I wear for squat and deadlift are wrestling boots (which I had from my amateur wrestling days). These are very flat with a hard exterior coating. Essentially, it is like squatting in your socks without the risk of slipping. They also go just above your ankles which provides ankle support. Here's a link to illustrate: http://www.sports-shoes.net/product.asp?sectionid=318&productid=1194&catalogue=9

qt9ukbg60ivjrn

hi slicus ricus,

i've got orthotics, what would you squat in if you had them?

runners with orthotics, flat shoes with orthotics or just flat shoes?

thanks

kevpants

A heel is actually an advantage when squatting. It's the squijjiness (word?) of runner that will mess up your sh1t. Weightlifting shoes have soles made predominantly of wood so you won't be warming up on the treadmill in them but they provide a solid base with an elevated heel.

Cons are popular because of the solidity of the sole of the shoe. They are better than weightlifting shoes for deadlifting however, the raised heel is a disadvantage there. Unless you're proper old school, or Mark Rippetoe.

slicus ricus

Jocelyn Few Udder wrote: »

hi slicus ricus,

i've got orthotics, what would you squat in if you had them?

runners with orthotics, flat shoes with orthotics or just flat shoes?

thanks

I would just squat in flat shoes - the types of boots i've mentioned or converse (a lot of people use them).

I used to use orthotics myself a few years ago but never found them very good to be honest. They don't actually tackle the root cause of the problem, instead they create an artificial arch for your feet.

Any elevated heel (like that of runners and created by orthotics) is likely to cause your knees to move forward during the squat and thus put extra strain on them. By wearing flats, you can prevent your knees moving forward and it's much easier to break with the hips rather than the knees when you get deep.

ronbyrne2005

Barefoot squating ok?

cardio,shoot me

Barefoot squatting is awesome!

bigstar

use socks though, getting a whiff of someones feet can put you right off your squat rack curls.

cardio,shoot me

ive never taken my socks off yet :P

slicus ricus

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Barefoot squating ok?

Yeah, squating in your socks is good, only problem i would have with it is there's a slight chance you could slip (I don't even want to think of the consequences of that one)!

qt9ukbg60ivjrn

When you started the deep squating rehabilitation thing, how was your knee?

Was it completely pain free or acheing, cracking etc.... i.e. were you waiting to feel relatively healthy before beginning the deep squating or was it constantly sore because the problem wasn't being addressed?

I'm just wondering because I've given several attempts to squating cause I have a dodgy knee and it stiffens up to a point where i'm not sure if I should continue.

My knee cap doesn't run an the proper track (i'm not a physio so I don't know the proper way of saying it) so it grates alot and I've been told by a physio that this could be a muscular imbalance in my quad.

What type of reps, sets, weight (in relation to heavyness - not actual kgs) were you doing?

Did you ever have days were you were doing 20 reps or days when you were going for 3 really heavy reps? 5x5? etc...

Were you doing back squats or front squats or both?

My form on back squat is attrocious completely because I have never got into squating, I find it easier to front squat (but obviously the weight is lighter)

Do you think if I ignored back squats and focused on front I'd be shooting my self in the foot? Or is front squating effective?

Sorry about all the questions, just interested in how you went about improving your knee because at the moment mine is really limiting my activity and its just depressing!:( thanks

brianthebard

slicus ricus wrote: »

Yeah, squating in your socks is good, only problem i would have with it is there's a slight chance you could slip (I don't even want to think of the consequences of that one)!

I've only squatted in socks once but it was on a sort of slippy surface, once I got the weight on my back it was fine. Dunno if I was just lucky, but so long as you walk it out properly I don't think there should be any problems.

sunnyjim

Jocelyn Few Udder wrote:

My knee cap doesn't run an the proper track (i'm not a physio so I don't know the proper way of saying it) so it grates alot and I've been told by a physio that this could be a muscular imbalance in my quad.

Had the same thing myself. I took to squatting and deadlifting 60kg for 5 x 5, just to be able to do them properly. Physio was giving me tons of bodyweight exercises to do, but they were useless.

d'Oracle

Jocelyn Few Udder wrote: »

hi slicus ricus,

i've got orthotics, what would you squat in if you had them?

runners with orthotics, flat shoes with orthotics or just flat shoes?

thanks

Orthotics are for walking/running.
They correct your gait. How your foot strikes the ground.

You shouldnt be hiking with a barbell across your shoulders.:D
They will be of no benefit to you when squatting.
really only useful on the treadmill.

slicus ricus

Jocelyn Few Udder wrote: »

When you started the deep squating rehabilitation thing, how was your knee?

Was it completely pain free or acheing, cracking etc.... i.e. were you waiting to feel relatively healthy before beginning the deep squating or was it constantly sore because the problem wasn't being addressed?

I'm just wondering because I've given several attempts to squating cause I have a dodgy knee and it stiffens up to a point where i'm not sure if I should continue.

When I started squating again, my knee was healed up in the sense that there was the fluid had more or less gone and the movement wasn't hampered for that reason. There was still pain in the sense that if i put excessive strain on the knee, it would hurt. That is still the case (Rome wasn't built in a day) but the amount of resistance is far higher due to the increased strength and muscle around the knee joint. It still cracks also but I think that's a case of the damage to the joint is already done from dislocating the patella.

Jocelyn Few Udder wrote: »

My knee cap doesn't run an the proper track (i'm not a physio so I don't know the proper way of saying it) so it grates alot and I've been told by a physio that this could be a muscular imbalance in my quad.

I'm not a physio either so I would be inclined to go with your physio's judgement. If that's the case, then I would imagine the depth of your squat will be key to correcting the imbalance. How deep would you normally squat?? Do you go below parallel?

Jocelyn Few Udder wrote: »

What type of reps, sets, weight (in relation to heavyness - not actual kgs) were you doing?

Did you ever have days were you were doing 20 reps or days when you were going for 3 really heavy reps? 5x5? etc...

I generally wouldn't go past 6-8 reps - yesterday for example, I started off with 60 for 8 reps, then did 80 for 6 reps, then 90 for 5 rep, 100 for 3 reps, then 105 for 3 reps (all below parallel). The annoying thing is that I know my leg muscles have the power to go heavier but they are slightly impeded by my knee, so i just have to take it slowly in terms of increasing weight.

Jocelyn Few Udder wrote: »

Were you doing back squats or front squats or both?

My form on back squat is attrocious completely because I have never got into squating, I find it easier to front squat (but obviously the weight is lighter)

Do you think if I ignored back squats and focused on front I'd be shooting my self in the foot? Or is front squating effective?

I do back squats only. If your form on them is that bad, then start again from scratch with light weight and work on getting the technique right. For pointers, I would check out some of the guys training logs (i know hanley has videos in his) and this thread is also useful: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055556857 as the OP's form is very good.

Also, tracking problems can occur due to weakness in the hams and glutes. As well as deep squats, I would suggest that you start deadlifting also (if you are not already doing so).

Hope that answers the questions. If you've any more, id be happy to answer em.

qt9ukbg60ivjrn

sunnyjim wrote: »

Had the same thing myself. I took to squatting and deadlifting 60kg for 5 x 5, just to be able to do them properly. Physio was giving me tons of bodyweight exercises to do, but they were useless.

Did the squatting and DLing work?

I know what you mean about the BW excercises, I was given loads of single leg squats off steps and stuff and I found it was not really donig much (i.e. nothing!)

qt9ukbg60ivjrn

d'Oracle wrote: »

Orthotics are for walking/running.
They correct your gait. How your foot strikes the ground.

You shouldnt be hiking with a barbell across your shoulders.:D
They will be of no benefit to you when squatting.
really only useful on the treadmill.

But orthotics are also prescribed for pronation and supination (and other things I don't know about).... So surely if I was squatting without orthotics and my right foot naturally pronates, it would be in the pronating postion and the weight of the bar would transfer down my body to my feet through and incorrect path. (or the force from the ground would transfer up - which ever way it happens, i'm not a damn scientist!!!)

Pronation and supination of the foot can be measured by a foot standing still as well as walking over of sensor pad thingy which shows the persons gait. The cast I got for my orthotics was taken from a mould of my foot.

To my mind I should wear orthotics because the pronation of my right foot is corrected so the weight distribution is even on my feet which is good news for my knees, hips and back.

I'm not sure thought.

Off topic but on a similar note...if I went to buy runners and the guy in the shop said I supinate, and he recommended shoes for people who supinate, should I go ahead and wear the orthotics, or is the shoe compensating enough. If i wear the orthotics am I over compensating?

So is the solution to by neutral shoes and let the orthotics do their work?

And if I supinate in only one foot, are pairs of runners always the same? i.e. both left and right correct/cushion for supination?

d'Oracle

I dunno.
Ask whoever gave you the orthotics.

My thinking would be your foot position would be as much part of your form as your back here.
If your foot supinates, then don't.

Stand properly.
Or wear them, but thats probably worse.

I wear them for pronation. Most all the time.
But if they get in the way I take them off.
When I have them off, I make sure to try to stand properly.

Worst injury I have ever had was from inappropriate footwear. I had orthotics on at the time.

It was that which made me realise the limits of their usefulness.

qt9ukbg60ivjrn

slicus ricus wrote: »

How deep would you normally squat?? Do you go below parallel?

I do back squats only. If your form on them is that bad, then start again from scratch with light weight and work on getting the technique right. For pointers, I would check out some of the guys training logs (i know hanley has videos in his) and this thread is also useful: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055556857 as the OP's form is very good.

Also, tracking problems can occur due to weakness in the hams and glutes. As well as deep squats, I would suggest that you start deadlifting also (if you are not already doing so).

Hope that answers the questions. If you've any more, id be happy to answer em.

Thanks for answers.

I'd squat to parrallel but no deeper but I'd always concentrate on getting it to parrallel.

The problem I have with back squats is that when I squat, my ass dips down and my lower spine starts to round out, and this usually happens just as I reach parrallel.

The only way I would be able to maintain a natural lower back position is by keeping my upper body higher, straight and possibly further back in relation to where my feet are planted, which would result in me falling backwards.

I'll check out the links and logs you suggested.

Thanks for all the answers

kevpants

Jocelyn Few Udder wrote: »

The only way I would be able to maintain a natural lower back position is by keeping my upper body higher, straight and possibly further back in relation to where my feet are planted, which would result in me falling backwards.

No it wouldn't. You're just scared it would. This is like deja vu of the thread last week where I was arguing the keeping your chest up and elbows forward will stop your lower back from rounding.

To summarize:

Keeping your chest up and elbows forward will stop your lower back from rounding

What you are suggesting, the refusal to go below parallel etc is going to absolutely kill your knees.

sunnyjim

Did the squatting and DLing work?

I know what you mean about the BW excercises, I was given loads of single leg squats off steps and stuff and I found it was not really donig much (i.e. nothing!)

Oh it did alright. For a while I was finding it really hard to run though, even nipping across the road felt like I was running with 40lbs on my back - lifting my knees to run wasn't happening! That's gone now thankfully.

rubadub

I have no squat rack so do all sorts of mad variations. One I like is having a dip belt with weight, combined with a barbell I clean and press onto my back. This way I also have less loading on the spine yet a fair bit of weight on the legs. But another advantage is that I warm up with just the belt on and adjust the strap length so it tips the ground as I go below parallel. So I put a towel under me and when the weight touches the ground I know I am deep enough and its my signal to go back up. Also stops shallow squats at later reps when tiring.

I have now put a mark on the belt strap so it should be the same each week so I can track progress better, i.e. no shallow squats to fool myself into thinking I am doing better. Instead of a dip belt with weights you could always just use any old belt and a small weight or some other thing to hit the ground. The weights are good since you can feel it slackening.

Thinking about it more it could make things easier, you could go well below parallel so the weights are on the ground, I find the hardest bit of the squat is the rising back up from the bottom, if my weights are slack on the ground I can begin to come up with only the weight on my back acting on me. In which case it might be an incentive to train you to go really deep, must try it out next time.

Or your ass or liathroidi hitting the cold floor could be the signal

brianthebard

kevpants wrote: »

No it wouldn't. You're just scared it would. This is like deja vu of the thread last week where I was arguing the keeping your chest up and elbows forward will stop your lower back from rounding.

To summarize:

Keeping your chest up and elbows forward will stop your lower back from rounding

What you are suggesting, the refusal to go below parallel etc is going to absolutely kill your knees.

Could there also be the possibility of tight hamstrings?

Dazd_N_Confusd

I don't know much about the physiology of the human body but rather than take the advice of Irish people, who know **** all about strength training btw, I decided to listen to the internets. I strained my quad a few months ago and the physio told me that I needed to strengthen my core.

So what does she recommend?

****ing pilates and leg presses. I'll stick to my below parallel free weight squats.

BTW, anyone here a member of Image Gym in Swords. I've only been out there for a few weeks but it's great because nobody bothers squatting. They all just use the smith machines. One ****er even had the balls to say that after squats I wasn't racking the bar properly.

Then what does he do?

He begins to squat 140 kg ABOVE PARALLEL, with ****ing knee wraps and a belt. I hope he ****s his knees up.

Dazd_N_Confusd

I'm presuming you're all talking about FREE WEIGHT squats?

Smith squats don't ****ing count!

Roper

Wow you're cool. You may have strong opinions on Smith Machines but what does that have to do with knee rehab? Also I don't remember seeing a Smith machine in Image last time I was there.

Just as an aside to this, squatting would not always be the best option to rehabbing a knee, or to stave off things like tendonitis, at least not two leg squatting. A squat has a predetermined path (obviously enough) and where inflexibility or weakness exist, just squatting may only serve to reinforce those problems.

Squatting is good enough for knee health, but it does get a bad rep because people treat it as some sort of holy grail ("yeah baby I'm squatting today hardcore etc. etc.") without doing the necessary work to stave off imbalance that you must do. So people actually end up injuring their knees, not because squatting is bad, but because the internet tells them they must squat and doesn't tell them about quad/ham imbalances, lower back strength etc. because it's not sexy.

brutusthebarber

maybe you weren't racking it properly...

Dazd_N_Confusd

Roper wrote: »

Wow you're cool.

Thank you.

Roper

Dazd_N_Confusd wrote: »

I don't know much about the physiology of the human body but rather than take the advice of Irish people, who know **** all about strength training btw, I decided to listen to the internets.

Don't tar everyone with the same labelling brush. There's plenty of Irish people who know plenty about strength training... just not many of them working in your local globo gym.

Dazd_N_Confusd

Roper wrote: »

Don't tar everyone with the same labelling brush. There's plenty of Irish people who know plenty about strength training... just not many of them working in your local globo gym.

I'm sorry, I just love generalisations!

What gym do you go to?

Roper

Me own.

Dazd_N_Confusd

Roper wrote: »

Me own.

I wanted to build one out the back but my dad wouldn't let me get a bigger shed.

Roper

Okay.

Dazd_N_Confusd

Roper wrote: »

Okay.

You're a nice fella, aren't you?

slicus ricus

Dazd_N_Confusd wrote: »

I'm presuming you're all talking about FREE WEIGHT squats?

Smith squats don't ****ing count!

Lol. Yes, we're talking about free weights squats and definately not smith machine squats!

Roper wrote:

Just as an aside to this, squatting would not always be the best option to rehabbing a knee, or to stave off things like tendonitis, at least not two leg squatting. A squat has a predetermined path (obviously enough) and where inflexibility or weakness exist, just squatting may only serve to reinforce those problems.

Squatting is good enough for knee health, but it does get a bad rep because people treat it as some sort of holy grail ("yeah baby I'm squatting today hardcore etc. etc.") without doing the necessary work to stave off imbalance that you must do. So people actually end up injuring their knees, not because squatting is bad, but because the internet tells them they must squat and doesn't tell them about quad/ham imbalances, lower back strength etc. because it's not sexy.

Im not sure entirely what you're recommending here? I get what you mean about quad/ham imbalances and the importance of training hams glutes and lower back to increase strength and stability: Deadlifting and anciliary exercises.

What are the exercises you recommend doing for imbalances as in "the necessary work to stave off imbalances that you must do"?

kevpants

slicus ricus wrote: »

Im not sure entirely what you're recommending here? I get what you mean about quad/ham imbalances and the importance of training hams glutes and lower back to increase strength and stability: Deadlifting and anciliary exercises.

What are the exercises you recommend doing for imbalances as in "the necessary work to stave off imbalances that you must do"?

Don't think he's recommending anything. If you have an imbalance then there'd be something specific to do to counter it. You'd have to be diagnosed first though.

RacoonQueen

Funny you should post this now, I've 'runners knee' and my kneecaps are both misaligned(one is close to dislocation) and I was doing some deep squats today just off the top of my head(non weighted) initation of a squat is trés painful for me though untill I get past about 30 degrees then I've no more pain, I think I'll stick to my stretches for now but deep squats will definately come into my rehab programme.

Roper

Dazd_N_Confusd wrote: »

You're a nice fella, aren't you?

Lovely in fact.

Kevpants says it above.

slicus ricus

kevpants wrote: »

Don't think he's recommending anything. If you have an imbalance then there'd be something specific to do to counter it. You'd have to be diagnosed first though.

Ah right, I see what you're saying. From my own perspective on this - I've been diagnosed as having dislocated my knee cap on my left knee (through an MRI scan), although i've yet to look into surgical options to have any damage from that corrected. Initially, I was given exercises to minimise wasting due to inactivity and fluid. Following that, i was advised to squat and deadlift - There were 2 focuses on this: 1st being to strengthen the muscles around the joint; 2nd being to strengthen the hamstrings and glutes to ensure that they were being recruited during activity and supporting the knees as they should be.

I've also been diagnosed by a physio as having patellar tendonitis (often referred to as jumpers knee) on my right knee. This is more or less the same type of thing as tennis elbow, except on your knee. To be honest, this can actually be quite painful at times. The main advise I was given on this one was to rest in between exercise. I was also advised to do one leg, decline 1/4 squats - quite difficult to do and i am still unsure of the benefits of it. I must start doing this exercise again to assess its effectiveness properly!

Hanley

Decline squat.... as in standing on a decline and squatting?

Roper

slicus ricus wrote: »

Ah right, I see what you're saying. From my own perspective on this - I've been diagnosed as having dislocated my knee cap on my left knee (through an MRI scan), although i've yet to look into surgical options to have any damage from that corrected. Initially, I was given exercises to minimise wasting due to inactivity and fluid. Following that, i was advised to squat and deadlift - There were 2 focuses on this: 1st being to strengthen the muscles around the joint; 2nd being to strengthen the hamstrings and glutes to ensure that they were being recruited during activity and supporting the knees as they should be.

I've also been diagnosed by a physio as having patellar tendonitis (often referred to as jumpers knee) on my right knee. This is more or less the same type of thing as tennis elbow, except on your knee. To be honest, this can actually be quite painful at times. The main advise I was given on this one was to rest in between exercise. I was also advised to do one leg, decline 1/4 squats - quite difficult to do and i am still unsure of the benefits of it. I must start doing this exercise again to assess its effectiveness properly!

Squats and deadlifts for a kneecap dislocation? Really? I'm not saying that's wrong, and I can see where it fits in, but my point above is that squatting, the way most people mean it, is a dual legged, heavily weighted exercise. If you have a problem on one leg, the other leg will take the additional strain that your injurred one can't take. Same with deadlifts, benching, anything like that.

I actually had a similar conversation on Thursday night face to face with another member of this board. The crux of it is that most of the time when you think you're making yourself stronger, you're actually just making your strong bits stronger and your weak bits more out of whack. I've been down this road myself recently (they say physician heal thyself you know, not that I'm a physician) and until I took myself out of the equation and stopped trying to self diagnose, I just reinforced what I was trying to fix.

I'm not trying to píss in your cornflakes, I just think people need to be wary that squats do not necessarily equal knee health, although that would be one of the consensus points of this board. I'm actually blogging about that very point right now if anyone is bored enough to read.

slicus ricus

Hanley wrote:

Decline squat.... as in standing on a decline and squatting?

Yep, standing on a decline, one legged. Not sure how I fell about this exercise. Here's a clip of someone doing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY98htXP0O4 It sort of makes sense that he's moving his knee forward as the patella tendin is just below the knee cap.

Roper wrote: »

Squats and deadlifts for a kneecap dislocation? Really? I'm not saying that's wrong, and I can see where it fits in, but my point above is that squatting, the way most people mean it, is a dual legged, heavily weighted exercise. If you have a problem on one leg, the other leg will take the additional strain that your injurred one can't take. Same with deadlifts, benching, anything like that.

Well, my kneecap is no longer dislocated, it eventually resets itself but tracking can be problematic from the dislocation. That's why it's so important to develop the whole quad, hams and glutes. If they are stong and stable, that will make it less like to recur.

I don't understand how one leg could take additional strain when you're squating below parallel. If you are going that deep, you have to go down straight, which would mean the weight is evenly distributed. With deadlifts, they don't really affect your knees that much.

Roper wrote: »

I'm not trying to píss in your cornflakes, I just think people need to be wary that squats do not necessarily equal knee health, although that would be one of the consensus points of this board.

No, they don't necessarily equal knee health, I don't recall ever stating that they do; I merely stated that they can benefit your knees if done properly. If your knees are already damaged, squating is not going to undo the damage. However, if you squat properly (below parallel without moving the knees forward, and breaking with the hips), you will develop increased strength throughout the 4 parts of your quads. This combined with increased strength in your hams and glutes from deadlifting, should provide extra stability around your knee joints, which is definately beneficial.

Roper

slicus ricus wrote: »

Well, my kneecap is no longer dislocated, it eventually resets itself but tracking can be problematic from the dislocation. That's why it's so important to develop the whole quad, hams and glutes. If they are stong and stable, that will make it less like to recur.

I think you misunderstood my question. Did a physio prescribe squats and deadlifts for your knee dislocation?

I don't understand how one leg could take additional strain when you're squating below parallel. If you are going that deep, you have to go down straight, which would mean the weight is evenly distributed.

That's just an assumption you're making, and it's false. In every movement you make, part of you is compensating for a weaker part. The squat isn't a perfect exercise and it is not a self correcting one. You may not even be compensating leg to leg, but in your hip, lower back and even upper back.

No, they don't necessarily equal knee health, I don't recall ever stating that they do; I merely stated that they can benefit your knees if done properly. If your knees are already damaged, squating is not going to undo the damage. However, if you squat properly (below parallel without moving the knees forward, and breaking with the hips), you will develop increased strength throughout the 4 parts of your quads. This combined with increased strength in your hams and glutes from deadlifting, should provide extra stability around your knee joints, which is definately beneficial.

Absolutely I agree, they can assist and are of immense benefit. But they're not the holy grail of leg strength.

Hanley

Roper wrote: »

But they're not the holy grail of leg strength.

What IS the holy grail of leg strength then?

slicus ricus

Roper wrote: »

I think you misunderstood my question. Did a physio prescribe squats and deadlifts for your knee dislocation?

Yes, initially when the swelling was still there and the dislocation hadn't healed yet, I was told to squat with my back against a wall, among other exercises. Following the healing process of the actual dislocation (i.e. when the patella had gone back into place and the swelling had gone), I was told that squats and deadlifts were a excellent exercises to develop the leg muscles in order to provide as much support for the knee joints as possible. Physio reckoned that one of the factors that was worsening the tracking in the knee i'd dislocated was that my glutes and hams were underdeveloped in comparison to my quads (particularly my outer quads). The most effective way of developing the inner quads is squating deep. When it comes to developing the hams and glutes, the most effective exercises are deadlift and again, deep squats.

I reckon that a lot of people have an over/under development scenario with their legs. The way to rectify it is obviously to develop the muscles that are underdeveloped. The way to avoid it is to develop these muscles as equally as possible with correct form and range of motion.

Roper wrote: »

That's just an assumption you're making, and it's false. In every movement you make, part of you is compensating for a weaker part. The squat isn't a perfect exercise and it is not a self correcting one. You may not even be compensating leg to leg, but in your hip, lower back and even upper back.

If your form is good, you won't be compensating for the weaker part. I'd recommend going through the motion of a deep squat (relatively wide stance, feet pointing out a bit) where you keep your knees back, go below parallel and break with the hips (not the knees). I fail to see how you could possibly compensate. The squat isn't just a regular movement, when squating, you are moving in a precise manner to target particular muscle groups/ to recruit certain muscle groups that will allow you to complete the lift.

Yes, the stronger muscles won't be working to their full capability (as they are capable of taking more weight) but as the weaker ones catch up, you can increase the weight. If in doubt, a hammer strength leg press is good as it has 2 independent leg platforms - when you do this exercise, you know that both legs can press a certain amount of weight.

Roper wrote: »

Absolutely I agree, they can assist and are of immense benefit. But they're not the holy grail of leg strength.

Right, so we agree on that then.

Roper

Hanley wrote: »

What IS the holy grail of leg strength then?

There is no holy grail of leg strength, other than to have strong and most importantly, balanced legs. Your grail may well be the back squat, but that's because it's your event. Others are back squatting with something else in mind. You're squatting with squatting in mind.

Yes, initially when the swelling was still there and the dislocation hadn't healed yet, I was told to squat with my back against a wall, among other exercises. Following the healing process of the actual dislocation (i.e. when the patella had gone back into place and the swelling had gone), I was told that squats and deadlifts were a excellent exercises to develop the leg muscles in order to provide as much support for the knee joints as possible. Physio reckoned that one of the factors that was worsening the tracking in the knee i'd dislocated was that my glutes and hams were underdeveloped in comparison to my quads (particularly my outer quads).

Right I understand now. Initially I was reading it as the physio reccomending back squats directly after the dislocation. If he was reccomending them as prehab that's different.

I reckon that a lot of people have an over/under development scenario with their legs. The way to rectify it is obviously to develop the muscles that are underdeveloped. The way to avoid it is to develop these muscles as equally as possible with correct form and range of motion.

You're not saying anything there I'd disagree with.

If your form is good, you won't be compensating for the weaker part. I'd recommend going through the motion of a deep squat (relatively wide stance, feet pointing out a bit) where you keep your knees back, go below parallel and break with the hips (not the knees). I fail to see how you could possibly compensate. The squat isn't just a regular movement, when squating, you are moving in a precise manner to target particular muscle groups/ to recruit certain muscle groups that will allow you to complete the lift.

I think you're equating compensation with some sort of voluntary thought process. When you compensate, you're not doing so (most of the time) consciously. You simply don't have that degree of control over your nervous system during heavily weighted exercises. I guarantee you have one leg stronger than the other, or with greater balance than the other, or with a greater range of motion than the other.

Yes, the stronger muscles won't be working to their full capability (as they are capable of taking more weight) but as the weaker ones catch up, you can increase the weight. If in doubt, a hammer strength leg press is good as it has 2 independent leg platforms - when you do this exercise, you know that both legs can press a certain amount of weight.

No, all a leg press will tell you is how strong the front of one leg is versus the other in a very strict plane of motion. Your hips will not be involved and they're probably the place most people have inflexibilities. Your legs will have no need for stabilisation in the ankle or knee.

I'm not intentionally disagreeing with you, and we agree that squats and deadlifts are good for your knees and back, but they are not doing what you think they are.

Dazd_N_Confusd

Seriously guys, what would be the best leg strength exercise.

I'd say one legged squats would be pretty tough to beat.

Anyone ever seen them?