'Libertas call to close borders sparks race row'

_Nuno_ · 16-05-2009 12:26AM

Riddle101 wrote: »

(3)No more excuses for free homes. I heard a lot of stories where foriegn national families have managed to get a free house, simply because they're child has a cough. I don't know exactly why, but it has happened were docters have written letters saying that a child of a certain family is ill and needs to stay in the country, and that allows them to get a free house or something.

That is hilarious!! I suppose you obviously have no evidence whatsoever on this?

Have you also heard the story about the little green men from outer space? Good one as well....

OPENROAD · 16-05-2009 12:27AM

Mena wrote: »

lol, really, how can anyone believe this crap. Hell, my daughter has Asthma, where do I sign up? Can finally get rid of this stupid mortgage.

I take it you got your free top of the range car when you arrived here

Mena · 16-05-2009 12:31AM

OPENROAD wrote: »

I take it you got your free top of the range car when you arrived here

Couple of BMW's but I've been ripped off, had to sign a lease for them and pay with my own money. Off to SW on Monday to get that sorted :pac:

cooperguy · 16-05-2009 12:33AM

OPENROAD wrote: »

I take it you got your free top of the range car when you arrived here

You got screwed. I got a Chauffeur

Riddle101 · 16-05-2009 02:27AM

_Nuno_ wrote: »

That is hilarious!! I suppose you obviously have no evidence whatsoever on this?

Have you also heard the story about the little green men from outer space? Good one as well....

lol, really, how can anyone believe this crap. Hell, my daughter has Asthma, where do I sign up? Can finally get rid of this stupid mortgage.

My sister was a secretary in Our Lady's Hospital and told me a lot of the sh!t that goes on there, about how foreign national families would come in looking for letters off the docter about their children having some small like a cough, and for some stupid reason the docters had no choice.

thelordofcheese · 16-05-2009 03:16AM

Tigger wrote: »

we see libertas trolling : we hating

And we see them ridin' dirty.

Lets not pretend here, all liberatas have done is produce a vapid piece of spurious reasoning and nothing more.

Now, as a mental exercise, lets give this mouthbreather the benifit of the doubt and assume he can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that immigrants are bad for ireland (he can't but still, lets roll with it). Even if they could produce said proof, which they can't, they would still have to produce a viable method to close our borders without breaking the free movement of labour rule which is a corner stone of the EU, they'd have to provide a method of measuring the improvement (if any) of their actions and more to the point they'd have to set down limits of when we can stop being dicks and let people back into our country,
I really doubt liberatas are capable of providing a fully realised argument and solution, then the should be ignored as the rabble rousing cretins they are. As for those who agree with liberatats, well we all make mistakes......

BlitzKrieg · 16-05-2009 03:29AM

I really doubt liberatas are capable of providing a fully realised argument and solution

They tried today, someone posted a link to the radio show where caroline simmons gives a disastrous breakdown of how their anti immigration policy would work.

Nehaxak · 16-05-2009 04:45AM

Tbh, they're only playing the populist right wing card with this one and nothing more. There's no substance, thought or planning behind it all anyway and they wouldn't go through with it either way. They know damn well that all they need to do is make a promise to the electorate, shout their mouths off a bit and the feeble minded right wing rabble rousing scumbags lap it up.

b28 · 16-05-2009 07:18AM

This lad is an extremist arsehole on many things and I wont be voting for him, but I agree on limiting people coming into Ireland.
He says he'll cut down on people coming in, but will he even do that If he got into power.

He knows exactly how to win voters, because nobody wants more foreigners now that we're in a recession!!!

Victor · 16-05-2009 09:35AM

Morlar wrote: »

Defending his remarks last night, Mr O'Malley said that with 400,000 Irish people out of work, it is no longer "sound policy" to issue PPS numbers to foreign nationals.

So he doesn't want the people who do come here to pay taxes? :rolleyes:

cornbb · 16-05-2009 10:21AM

This was a moronic, pointless statement and only shows Libertas up for the sinister extreme right-wing crowd that they are. A few points:

- Tightening controls on immigration laws now would be akin to putting on wellies and putting up an umbrella when its not raining. Eastern European migrant workers are heading home in their droves as it is. This is migration by its nature - this sector of the labour market it correcting itself, by itself.

- Recent research has shown that someone with an Irish name is around twice as likely to get called for an interview as someone with an African, Asian or Eastern European name, with identical qualifications - link: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/racism-rife-as-irish-twice-as-likely-to-be-given-job-1731224.html. I hope we aren't going to affirm our rascist side by listening to Libertas.

- We signed up for EU membership for better or for worse - we were glad of cheap foreign labour when we needed it, and for generations Irish people have had no hesitation in heading abroad in search of work. Yet another example of Libertas picking the bits of EU membership they don't like while conveniently ignoring the bits that have worked extremely well for us.

I would say that Libertas' policies are bordering on fascism but they don't deserve the attention that such a strong word implies. At least not now. If enough bigoted ignorant fools are stupid enough to listen to them, they might begin to take Ireland and Europe down a horrible path. But I think its more likely that they will remain a small but annoying sideshow, on the fringe of public opinion and European politics. At least I hope so.

Sizzler · 16-05-2009 10:24AM

Prime Time on Tuesday night are covering this very subject "The effect of immigration on the Irish economy", will be inerested to see what they come up with.

People can refrain from using their anecdotal arguments untill some hard facts are dished out then.

asdasd · 16-05-2009 10:36AM

I absolutely despise that phrase. What is 'your own'? ....

.......

Proud to be Jewish

Stop, You are cracking me up.

asdasd · 16-05-2009 10:38AM

We signed up for EU membership for better or for worse - we were glad of cheap foreign labour when we needed it, and for generations Irish people have had no hesitation in heading abroad in search of work.

i dont think that Irish cheap labour was glad of cheap labour. Thats not the way it works.

As for signing up to the EU, Germany has still not opened it's borders fully to the East.

fredzer · 16-05-2009 01:48PM

dr.bollocko wrote: »

There is no merit in what this guy says because he has not a single clue about how to acheive it. It's like the KKK putting forward a sound theory about the recession that conveniently involves killing black people.
I'm not saying its racist. Im simply saying its nonsense.

If your saying this idea is not racist why bring up the KKK? Non racists can have nonsense ideas too, can't they?

I think when dealing with this issue sound economics should be basis of any policy or change of policy. Libertas are not playing the race card here it's just mud slinging and bitterness from certain parties stemming back to the Lisbon no vote. Bringing up racism I feel serves only to side track the issue that this country is in a very serious mess, all possible methods of taking this country out of the mess we find ourselves in should be looked at. If stopping more people from coming in will save money then do it. We have had a huge influx of eastern European’s that have made a valuable contribution to the state, Libertas as far as I can see from the statements posted by the OP are not calling for these people to be sent home, but just a restriction on more coming in to an economy that cannot facilitate them.

Ireland made the decision along with Sweden and the UK to allow citizens from the new accession states work in their respective states, this decision can be reversed according to our states needs. Australia for example routinely assess it’s needs for migrant workers and reduces or increases it’s allocation for certain professions, this is not a racist policy but an economic one, a decision made for their benefit. Why can’t we make similar decisions without the knee jerk reactions?

Agent Smith · 16-05-2009 02:10PM

Not getting into the policys (HA!) of Libertas, but of all people we irish have a fucking cheek giving out about people going overseas to work.

Police dole fraud better. Dont punish the people who come to ireland in search of work and better times.

Caroline simmons suggested that people that migrate for work and that cant get any should get the same dole that they would across the board.

whats stopping me going to greece or eastern europe and claiming the irish dole there? could live pretty decently there with Sweet F.A to do

asdasd · 16-05-2009 02:29PM

Why can’t we make similar decisions without the knee jerk reactions?

Because unlike the German's, who have not allowed Poles ( and other acession State members ) to work in the country we have a terrible history of racial violence against Eastern Europeans, so of course we would be judged differently. Nobody can accuse the Germans of historical racial animosity towards the Polish, so when they close borders it can be seen as just an economic decision based on labour realities.

NOT!!

The real reason is this: the ruling classes in Ireland are dominated by the Liberal and the economic Libertarian. Both of the same mind on unfettered immigration which, not uncoincidentally, affects neither of them.

( There are convenient laws in the EU prohibiting the free movement of the old professional classes. Dentists, for instance, cant set up here, which is why you have to go to Hungary for the Hungarian dentists. Consultants need "recognised" degrees.).

Germany, on the other hand, has strong private sector unions even in the unskilled and retail sector, and they protect their existing membership. They lobbied against open borders. Nobody shouted racist.

France, also has kept borders closed. France has strong private sector unions.

In these countries it isnt just the "far right" who argue against unfettered immigration, but the representatives of labour in the private sphere. Most of our unions are in the Public Sector - which, by and large, does not compete with immigrant labour and where wages are not set by market rates anyway. The public sector benefits from immigration ( in that form of surplus value expropriated from the private sector worker known as Tax).

So the elites shout racism at the top of their voices, mostly from their lilly white,uniform classed, millionaire suburbs. Anyway, who is going to clean the gaff, if not the Polish girls, who? Cleaning up after the posh is just something the Irish won't do.

And whenever there is hegemony, or moral posturing from elites, there are muppets at the bottom parroting the party line even though it may not be in their interests.

asdasd · 16-05-2009 02:30PM

but of all people we irish have a ****ing cheek giving out about people going overseas to work.

Um, the places we go to, like Australia, Canada, and the US control their borders. ( The UK is the exception, it is in the common travel area).

dr.bollocko · 16-05-2009 04:32PM

I never said it was a racist policy. I said it was an unworkable BS nonsense reactionary full of shit policy.

Actually cornbb said it better.
There you go. Thank that post.

cornbb wrote: »

This was a moronic, pointless statement and only shows Libertas up for the sinister extreme right-wing crowd that they are. A few points:

- Tightening controls on immigration laws now would be akin to putting on wellies and putting up an umbrella when its not raining. Eastern European migrant workers are heading home in their droves as it is. This is migration by its nature - this sector of the labour market it correcting itself, by itself.

- Recent research has shown that someone with an Irish name is around twice as likely to get called for an interview as someone with an African, Asian or Eastern European name, with identical qualifications - link: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/racism-rife-as-irish-twice-as-likely-to-be-given-job-1731224.html. I hope we aren't going to affirm our rascist side by listening to Libertas.

- We signed up for EU membership for better or for worse - we were glad of cheap foreign labour when we needed it, and for generations Irish people have had no hesitation in heading abroad in search of work. Yet another example of Libertas picking the bits of EU membership they don't like while conveniently ignoring the bits that have worked extremely well for us.

I would say that Libertas' policies are bordering on fascism but they don't deserve the attention that such a strong word implies. At least not now. If enough bigoted ignorant fools are stupid enough to listen to them, they might begin to take Ireland and Europe down a horrible path. But I think its more likely that they will remain a small but annoying sideshow, on the fringe of public opinion and European politics. At least I hope so.

Furthermore, talk about reactionary, we have now been accused of censoring right wing opinion. Hey, Im all for discussion of politics in AH. But just like soccer, if you cant play by the rules you don't play at all.

Des wrote: »

I hate these lefty-liberal ****.

Well that implies you are up for a reasonable debate.

Des wrote: »

Immigration is already restricted from these places by our evil racist government.

Nice.

Des wrote: »

Yep.

Typical Liberal-Leftist attitude.

Well screw you Liberal-Leftists, it is your politics that re-elects Fianna Fail and got us into this mess in the first place, you idiots.

Nice. Just about avoiding the ban there. Just about.

Des wrote: »

This is what the Libertas man has said, and anyone who agrees with him has been branded an idiot by others on this thread, posters, moderators and Admin alike.

Nope. That didn't happen. However people were called liberal leftist ****.
And idiots. See above quotes if you have a bad memory.

Des wrote: »

Excellent post, but you will be branded a racist and an idiot for holding that viewpoint.

Collect your Swastika on your way to Stormfront :rolleyes:

Wow.
OMG you were wrong. That somehow didn't happen.

Des wrote: »

I'm not a racist, but

That's not one I've seen before in After Hours that one.

Irish Jobs for Irish People

And jobs in countries where thankfully immigrration is controlled. Wahey. Those jobs are also ok for Irish people.

Des wrote: »

This PC Do-Gooder brigade sicken me.

So anyone left wing or with differing views about you or Libertas viewpoint in this instance is part of this brigade that sickens you. See also leftie liberal **** and idiots.

Des wrote: »

They are afraid of what the retards will say about them.

Talk about pummeling the ole opinion home. Thank God the fearful silent rightwing majority has a cunning debater like you on their side to argue with opinions rather than abuse.

_blank_ · 16-05-2009 04:36PM

Quoting out of context.

good one bollocko, good one.

Evolute · 16-05-2009 04:54PM

I agree that we need to tighten our borders If someone has a job lined up over here and then they wish to come over I beleive they should be more then welcome but for others there is no guarantee that they will get a job and guess what when they cant get a job then they go on the dole and you can not honestly say that we need more people getting the dole its already gotten to a ridiculous rate.

Theres is no racism in that thought what so ever its preserving a small economy that is screwed because the building boom fell down around us.

Mena · 16-05-2009 04:59PM

Evolute wrote: »

but for others there is no guarantee that they will get a job and guess what when they cant get a job then they go on the dole

Not unless they've paid taxes for two years they cannot, but hey, what do facts matter.

bill_ashmount · 16-05-2009 05:02PM

asdasd wrote: »

The real reason is this: the ruling classes in Ireland are dominated by the Liberal and the economic Libertarian. Both of the same mind on unfettered immigration which, not uncoincidentally, affects neither of them.

This occurs in most first world countries, with the major exception of Japan.

Fair play to the Japanese.

diddley · 17-05-2009 06:22PM

Mena wrote: »

I have news for you, we're al part of the human race. "Your own" includes some 6.5 billion others as well. Just because you were born 4mls south of some arbitrary line on a map makes nobody special in any way.

I'm 37 years old and I still don't "get" this nationality or patriotism crap.

Just looking through this thread this post stood out as sounding absolutely ridiculous to me.

You said you earn 3 times the average industrial wage. So does that mean you give 2/3 of that to poorer people in Ireland on the average industrial wage?
Or maybe looking at the broader 6.5 billion scheme of things do you just live on bread and water and donate the rest of your wages to starving Africans?

Mena · 17-05-2009 06:49PM

diddley wrote: »

Just looking through this thread this post stood out as sounding absolutely ridiculous to me.

You said you earn 3 times the average industrial wage. So does that mean you give 2/3 of that to poorer people in Ireland on the average industrial wage?
Or maybe looking at the broader 6.5 billion scheme of things do you just live on bread and water and donate the rest of your wages to starving Africans?

Your logic eludes me here, sorry. Could you expand? I say I don't go for the patriotism thing, and you conclude thusly I am (or should be) giving 2/3rds of my money to the third world?

I don't see how the one equates to the other, but feel free to expand and I'll respond.

tatabubbly · 17-05-2009 06:53PM

I can see where they are coming from... look after your own first and all that. But it's nice to have a bit of ethnic diversity too, and as long as people are paying their taxes, why should it matter what nationality they are?

diddley · 17-05-2009 07:14PM

Mena wrote: »

Your logic eludes me here, sorry. Could you expand? I say I don't go for the patriotism thing, and you conclude thusly I am (or should be) giving 2/3rds of my money to the third world?

I don't see how the one equates to the other, but feel free to expand and I'll respond.

Well when someone said that we should look after our own, you replied saying that we're "all part of the human race" and "your own" includes some 6.5 billion others as well. By your logic, we should concern ourselves with looking after everybody in the human race. So, as someone who earns three times the national average industrial wage, should you not accordingly concern yourself with looking after your fellow members of the human race? As Irish citizens, our taxes go primarily towards the welfare of other Irish citizens - that’s just the way it works. By your logic, we should aim to have a global economy that caters for everyone in the human race. That's simply unrealistic.

Mena · 17-05-2009 07:18PM

diddley wrote: »

By your logic, we should aim to have a global economy that caters for everyone in the human race. That's simply unrealistic.

That I would agree with, however I also agree that it's unrealistic.

procure11 · 17-05-2009 10:41PM

fredzer wrote: »

If your saying this idea is not racist why bring up the KKK? Non racists can have nonsense ideas too, can't they?

I think when dealing with this issue sound economics should be basis of any policy or change of policy. Libertas are not playing the race card here it's just mud slinging and bitterness from certain parties stemming back to the Lisbon no vote. Bringing up racism I feel serves only to side track the issue that this country is in a very serious mess, all possible methods of taking this country out of the mess we find ourselves in should be looked at. If stopping more people from coming in will save money then do it. We have had a huge influx of eastern European’s that have made a valuable contribution to the state, Libertas as far as I can see from the statements posted by the OP are not calling for these people to be sent home, but just a restriction on more coming in to an economy that cannot facilitate them.

Ireland made the decision along with Sweden and the UK to allow citizens from the new accession states work in their respective states, this decision can be reversed according to our states needs. Australia for example routinely assess it’s needs for migrant workers and reduces or increases it’s allocation for certain professions, this is not a racist policy but an economic one, a decision made for their benefit. Why can’t we make similar decisions without the knee jerk reactions?

Australia did not sign any treaty with any country or bloc regarding how she should determine it's immigration policy.......Ireland did

procure11 · 17-05-2009 10:51PM

asdasd wrote: »

Um, the places we go to, like Australia, Canada, and the US control their borders. ( The UK is the exception, it is in the common travel area).

The US,Canada,Australia do not have to report to any centralised body like the EU.Do you honestly understand what the Irish Immigration goes through everyday when it comes to conforming with EU regulations, for example if I am from Iraq and I am married to a dutch and we both arrive at Dublin airport and I dont have any documents (eg passport) but I have my marraige certificate,the Immigration has ABSOLUTELY no choice than to let me in and they have six months to give me a resident permit for 5 years-all under EU laws.The above mentioned countries are not bound by any laws whatsoever to do so.

'Libertas call to close borders sparks race row'

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