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Mercedes 190e (classic or future classic)

  • 29-04-2009 7:08pm
    #1
    shawnee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭


    While there are still some of these on the road, they are becoming rarer all the time. In my opinion they were almost the last of the real mercs. There are some nice 92/93 examples out there. They seem to have added lots of extras on the later models, abs, a/c. etc. There are also some classy colours on these and the good thing about them is that they seem pretty rustproof.
    Any other fans of these out there and which models do you like best. :o


«1345

Comments

  • #2
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Used to have a 1990 2.0. In sexy black

    mercsmaller.jpg

    Dsc00098.jpg

    The ideal w201 is prolly a 2.6 auto with leather and a/c.


  • #3
    maidhc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭maidhc


    I bought a w201 2.6 black/grey auto on adverts at the start of the year for €550. It is a 1990 Irish car with "Sportline" spec. Overall in very good condition, but needs a few grand to get it immaculate.

    It is currently in a shed behind a baler and a few tractors, but it is safe and dry. When you see it on the road you will know the current recession is over! :)

    I bought it because I just have always loved the w201 since I was small. I am not sure if it will ever be any more of a "classic" than the w123, but they are a wonderful little car and very underrated, especially compared to the w124 and 3 series of the day.


  • #4
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,708 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    maidhc wrote: »
    I bought a w201 2.6 black/grey auto on adverts at the start of the year for €550. It is a 1990 Irish car with "Sportline" spec. Overall in very good condition

    Bargain!

    I always liked the baby merc - back in the 80s I used to regularly get a lift from a company director (in his mid 30s) with a brand new 2.5 16V. He used to explain the latest fiscal tricks to me while doing 200km/h on the motorway :D

    With hindsight, maybe it was then that I subconsciously decided I would own a high quality car with a bit of poke some time in the future :D

    My ads on adverts.ie

    https://www.adverts.ie/member/5856/ads



  • #5
    Johnboy Mac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭Johnboy Mac


    I have owned few and currently run a 2.6 auto and a 2.5-16 man. Great cars (well I'm biased) and I'd say excellent value, under rated with first class handling and great build quality. The 2.6 is the best allrounder, several times covered from here to south of London with ease and good pace. But the 2.5 is special, use it as a daily driver and nobody takes a blind bit of notice which is nice but got to be careful of the boys in blue (no comments please!) as it's still very quick even by todays standards.

    Anybody that's thinking of buying a 190E and wants a bit of info PM me if you wish, if I can help I will .


  • #6
    carchaeologist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,318 ✭✭✭✭carchaeologist


    I was offered one of these recently,a mint 1990 2litre auto with two years test for 1500 quid,need front brake discs,but is a lovely car otherwise,kinda toying with the idea of taking it.
    How much would brake discs be?


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  • #7
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    cheap from non franchise sellers


  • #8
    Johnboy Mac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭Johnboy Mac


    carchaeologist wrote: »
    I was offered one of these recently,a mint 1990 2litre auto with two years test for 1500 quid,need front brake discs,but is a lovely car otherwise,kinda toying with the idea of taking it.
    How much would brake discs be?

    I suspect €30ea, go for Zimmerman, ATE for both disc & pads. Service items are not expensive. I find the OTTO the best and the local motor factors can supply most service items.


  • #9
    carchaeologist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,318 ✭✭✭✭carchaeologist


    Thanks lads,any other things that should be looked out for?


  • #10
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Check for rust around the rim of the boot lid under the rear window if its got a sunroof, the drain pipes are in that area if they are blocked then rust shall follow.

    Check the cooling fan cuts in (the sensor can fail) listen for the main drivebelt, should be silent and smooth running. Pop off the oil filler cap and see if you can lift the timing chain (should be duplex 1990) with a screwdriver. Pop off the covers on the jacking points and check for crumbly metal - another potential rust trap. They are just visible on my car above. If it has rear electric windows check them - most seem to give up at some point as the wiring breaks. Check the temp dials both work (one for each side)


  • #11
    gyppo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭gyppo


    maidhc wrote: »
    I bought a w201 2.6 black/grey auto on adverts at the start of the year for €550. It is a 1990 Irish car with "Sportline" spec. Overall in very good condition, but needs a few grand to get it immaculate.

    It is currently in a shed behind a baler and a few tractors, but it is safe and dry. When you see it on the road you will know the current recession is over! :)

    Yeah, I remember that car - I was eyeing it wantonly too at the time. Best of luck with it, you bought a nice car!


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  • #12
    carchaeologist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,318 ✭✭✭✭carchaeologist


    mike65 wrote: »
    Pop off the oil filler cap and see if you can lift the timing chain (should be duplex 1990) with a screwdriver.
    Im guessing if it can be lifted it means that its worn?


  • #13
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Well it means either stretch or that the tensioner needs replacing. Tensioner is the cheaper option and DIY friendly with a big socket set.


  • #14
    Johnboy Mac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭Johnboy Mac


    mike65 wrote: »
    Check for rust around the rim of the boot lid under the rear window if its got a sunroof, the drain pipes are in that area if they are blocked then rust shall follow.

    Check the cooling fan cuts in (the sensor can fail) listen for the main drivebelt, should be silent and smooth running. Pop off the oil filler cap and see if you can lift the timing chain (should be duplex 1990) with a screwdriver. Pop off the covers on the jacking points and check for crumbly metal - another potential rust trap. They are just visible on my car above. If it has rear electric windows check them - most seem to give up at some point as the wiring breaks. Check the temp dials both work (one for each side)

    Mike65, point about rust is correct especially if it's a UK import due salty roads.

    1. Water ingress into the boot - very common, caused by rear screen seal perished and sunroof drains coming adrift at the exit points on each C pillar at the exterior air vents. The seal is the main issue.
    Also rear lamp seals & boot lock button seal perish, again allowing water ingress to occur into the boot.

    2. Sills & jacking points - check for rust, advisable to inject waxoyl or similar which is very easy to do via the rubber grommets and the rubber jack points.

    3. Plastic cladding (doors, wings & rear 1/4 panel) all rust traps, only way of correctly checking is to remove them.

    4. Inner front wings to front panel - check for rust again.

    5. Battery tray - suffers from rot, drain hole beside can get blocked.

    Others items: Heater matrix gets blocked giving poor hot air , wiper assembly should lubricted, fuel pump relays €80 fail as do OVP €120 (over voltage protection) relays which effect fuel injection etc, blocked fuel filters are not unknown €20 and worn dizzy cap €18 & rotors €10 are common (use Bosch). Window switches & motors pack up. Rattle on start can be worn engine mounts €45ea.

    Suspension: Rear links, 4 ea side, front wishbones & ball joints

    Drivetrain: Prop rubber couplings x 2, centre bearing. Diffs get noisey but will go on forever. Rear subframe mountings 4 in total.

    Steering: Idle arm, drag links & damper become worn.

    That should give you a good idea give you a good idea of what to look for. The most important part is rust.


  • #15
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Ah the battery tray, I forgot to mention that cos mine didn't have one! It had completely oxidised, cleared out the bits and with help from my boss (a farmer) we concocted a new fitting for it out of angle iron and some big sheet metal screws.


  • #16
    Johnboy Mac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭Johnboy Mac


    mike65 wrote: »
    Ah the battery tray, I forgot to mention that cos mine didn't have one! It had completely oxidised, cleared out the bits and with help from my boss (a farmer) we concocted a new fitting for it out of angle iron and some big sheet metal screws.

    Mike, advise strongly you paint the iron if you hav'nt already as thats a massive catchment area for water. You can sill but new trays from Mercedes-Benz, can't remember the cost but not expensive.


  • #17
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Its someone elses problem now - sold it for an Audi A6.


  • #18
    Johnboy Mac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭Johnboy Mac


    mike65 wrote: »
    Its someone elses problem now - sold it for an Audi A6.

    Ah, shame on you! :D


  • #19
    Cañitas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭Cañitas


    i used to own a 91 auto 190e in black...great car but went onto the w123 which was better. the 190e developed a hole in the radiator hose which i kept meant to get fixed until i blew the engine at the airport roundabout...i since have developed a nervous tick with looking at the engine heat dial... never forget that goddamn day...the girlfriend at the time probably doesnt either..


  • #20
    shawnee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭shawnee


    Seems to be a few fans out there alright. I have been offered a lovely almadine red (burgundy) one recently at a reasonable price.Needs some work though, usual stuff drivers seat bolster etc a bit worn , sounds like wheel bearing on passenger front in trouble and car has 170 k on it. Still looks good though. So I'm tempted even though I don't need it. Nct is also just out. :rolleyes:


  • #21
    johnf2020
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 586 ✭✭✭johnf2020


    I ran a few of them from 1997 till 2005. The one thing that I really liked was that they are so DIY friendly. Good sound honest engineering. If you need to remove something IT will go back exactly right. I loved them. I did sit back into one recently,and it felt old.


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  • #22
    tc20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭tc20


    I too also have a soft spot for the W201. As the OP says i would consider them amongst the last of the bomb-proof Benzes, they're practically a shrunken S-class (W126). I dont think you realise how many are still out there on the roads until you start looking for them, this is imo due to the fairly bland design of the bread and butter models - no offence meant to W201 fans, i like the simple lines myself, and think the car has aged quite well because of it.
    Which model to go for - well who wouldn't want an Evo I or II? :D but in the real world it all depends, a basic 190D will just keep plodding along forever, a 2.3 or 2.5-16 for a bit of poke or the 2.6 as a smooth cruiser - there's one for everyone. When i was choosing my last car it came down to a choice between a 2.3 W201, a W126, or the W123 280 which i eventually went for.
    I still wouldn't rule out getting a W201 at some stage in the future.
    I think its 25 years this year since they were launched??


  • #23
    chuppachee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭chuppachee


    Yeah,what a car. I bought a 1.8 190e for €800 a couple of years ago. It has the big badge in the grille, but the black plastic grille itself, got broke (due to the chrome surround splitting from rust at the bottom centre). Anyone know where there is a grille insert for the big badge? (don't need the surround)


  • #24
    MercMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,266 ✭✭✭MercMad


    Another 201 fan here. I've never owned one but it was the first Merc that I drove legally on the road and I loved it.

    I would love a smoke coloured model, preferably a 16V but I'd settle for any W201 in good shape, with factory alloys.

    The 190E Exklusive was the run out model and came in some very nice colours. Plenty left around too. The W202 was a softer car all round, still good, but not in the same class as the W201.

    When at the show in Essen I oogled over several concourse W201's.


  • #25
    Blue850
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭Blue850


    I know a chap with an 84 2.0 who wasn't let into a vinatge show, he was told it wasn't a classic, to add insult to injury, the next car into the show was a 90's Mini!

    My brother sold a 92 1.8 last year with head gasket trouble, 1.8 engine was replaced with a 2.0, it was a lovely car except it was a manual, kept hitting my leg off the bottom of the wheel when using the clutch.


  • #26
    245
    Closed Accounts Posts: 760 ✭✭✭245


    shawnee wrote: »
    Seems to be a few fans out there alright. I have been offered a lovely almadine red (burgundy) one recently at a reasonable price.Needs some work though, usual stuff drivers seat bolster etc a bit worn , sounds like wheel bearing on passenger front in trouble and car has 170 k on it. Still looks good though. So I'm tempted even though I don't need it. Nct is also just out. :rolleyes:

    Was it this one?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055522247


  • #27
    MercMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,266 ✭✭✭MercMad


    Blue850 wrote: »
    I know a chap with an 84 2.0 who wasn't let into a vinatge show, he was told it wasn't a classic, to add insult to injury, the next car into the show was a 90's Mini!

    My brother sold a 92 1.8 last year with head gasket trouble, 1.8 engine was replaced with a 2.0, it was a lovely car except it was a manual, kept hitting my leg off the bottom of the wheel when using the clutch.

    .........try keeping your legs inside the car whilst driving, works out much better !! :p


  • #28
    Blue850
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭Blue850


    Funny man ha ha ha....:D
    Since I posted last, a mate has rang saying his sister has bought a 02 Merc and she needs to sell her current car

    A 93 Merc 190 2.0 manual.


  • #29
    thegen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭thegen


    I posted this in another thread a few weeks ago. It has since been taken off the market. Would have been a nice one though.

    http://cgi.ebay.ie/MERCEDES-BENZ-AMG-C36-PRIVATE-COLLECTION-SALE_W0QQitemZ300309475663QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAutomobiles_UK?hash=item300309475663&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318


  • #30
    maidhc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭maidhc


    thegen wrote: »
    I posted this in another thread a few weeks ago. It has since been taken off the market. Would have been a nice one though.

    http://cgi.ebay.ie/MERCEDES-BENZ-AMG-C36-PRIVATE-COLLECTION-SALE_W0QQitemZ300309475663QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAutomobiles_UK?hash=item300309475663&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

    This is probably a better bet, VRT already paid and a nice reg. I have been watching it, and were my job a little more secure I would be tempted:
    http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/872155


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  • #31
    thegen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭thegen


    maidhc wrote: »
    This is probably a better bet, VRT already paid and a nice reg. I have been watching it, and were my job a little more secure I would be tempted:
    http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/872155

    Now that is nice.


  • #32
    carchaeologist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,318 ✭✭✭✭carchaeologist


    carchaeologist wrote: »
    I was offered one of these recently,a mint 1990 2litre auto with two years test for 1500 quid,need front brake discs,but is a lovely car otherwise,kinda toying with the idea of taking it.
    How much would brake discs be?
    Bought this this morn,its a lovely comfy car on the road even though its lowered,ill run it for the summer and see after that.
    http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/881984


  • #33
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    But its white! :eek:


  • #34
    maidhc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭maidhc


    carchaeologist wrote: »
    Bought this this morn,its a lovely comfy car on the road even though its lowered,ill run it for the summer and see after that.
    http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/881984

    Well if you are selling it let me know your plans with the AMG alloys!

    Btw my Benz is so low with the sportline suspension you have to avoid most speed bumps or you will leave an autobox behind you.


  • #35
    MercMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,266 ✭✭✭MercMad


    Thats a nice car but I prefer factory standard, that been said the wheels are nice.

    Well wear & enjoy the summer !


  • #36
    carchaeologist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,318 ✭✭✭✭carchaeologist


    Thanks lads,yep,i know it white and low,but thats the way it came,i know the car and its sound so i dont mind too much.I might raise the front as im not a huge fan of lowered cars,the original springs came with it.That said the ride is quite good,much better than many low cars iv driven.


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  • #37
    shawnee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭shawnee


    Looks like a nice clean motor, but again I hate modified mercs, I don't even like th 190s that have a spoiler. A friend of mine bought one a while back and gave two weeks deblinging it the previous guy probably gave 6 months putting it how he liked it. All a matter of taste really:D


  • #38
    manta mad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 959 ✭✭✭manta mad


    theirs one of these for sale on totalopel !

    http://www.totalopel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1879

    1990 190e

    this is his ad !!!!!

    Hi lads - something else I`ve decided to sell.
    I recently picked up a mint 190E Merc with 100K genuine miles.
    The car is more or less spotless condition. It drives as new - the only thing it would require in the future is a wheel bearing on front passenger side. It's not noisey but can be heard humming as rest of car is silent. It's an 1.8 petrol to the best of my knowledge - I was promised the log book but it never came. No NCT as I was intending registering it in the north. I can't emphasise just how good a runner this car is - I drove it for a few weeks & it never missed a bat & is surprisingly easy on juice. I can't confirm but believe previous owner had from new & brought it over from England & registered it in south till he sold it about 4 mths ago. It's grey in colour (non metalic) and has red cloth interior, again in excellent condition. Mercedes alloys. Last of the proper Mercs. Offers close to €750 even though that's a tad less than it stands me. 1990 on Cavan reg

    i know the fella that has her &he,s dead sound , so she,d be as good as he says it is:)


  • #39
    Johnboy Mac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭Johnboy Mac


    carchaeologist wrote: »
    Bought this this morn,its a lovely comfy car on the road even though its lowered,ill run it for the summer and see after that.
    http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/881984


    Looks good, the white is nice once kept polished, like AMG's. Enjoy.


  • #40
    Johnboy Mac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭Johnboy Mac


    maidhc wrote: »
    Well if you are selling it let me know your plans with the AMG alloys!

    Btw my Benz is so low with the sportline suspension you have to avoid most speed bumps or you will leave an autobox behind you.

    If your car has still the original Merc 'sportline' springs & shocks you should really have no problems as this suspension set up only lowered the standard car by 20mm. I suspect something is worn like shocks, bushes or strut top mounts etc.


  • #41
    carchaeologist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,318 ✭✭✭✭carchaeologist


    Looks good, the white is nice once kept polished, like AMG's. Enjoy.
    I didnt like the AMGs when i first saw it but they are growing on me.
    Paint needs a good cleaning,seems to be mostly its original.


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  • #42
    Alfasudcrazy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭Alfasudcrazy


    I am sure the 190E is one of the last well made Mercs but it has dated very badly in recent years imo. The E class of the same or later vintage presents far better value and is just as satisfying to own.
    I am sure parts would be easier to come by too.
    I was mad for a 190D back in the day but was terribly disapointed when I drove one - a manual. It was a total lorry with no power - perhaps that has clouded my judgment.


  • #43
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    If it was the 2.0 version 72 bhp towing about 1.4 tonnes would indeed cloud your judgement! The mnaual box (which I had) is indeed a dog - long throw, narrow gait notchy. Yuck.


  • #44
    pmg007
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭pmg007


    Cañitas wrote: »
    i used to own a 91 auto 190e in black...great car but went onto the w123 which was better. the 190e developed a hole in the radiator hose which i kept meant to get fixed until i blew the engine at the airport roundabout...i since have developed a nervous tick with looking at the engine heat dial... never forget that goddamn day...the girlfriend at the time probably doesnt either..

    I had an '85 190d for a while but went back to the w123 which i much preferred . The 190 was a lot smaller inside and the plastic mouldings and bumpers looked cheap for a merc.


  • #45
    carchaeologist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,318 ✭✭✭✭carchaeologist


    Alfasudcrazy wrote: »
    I was mad for a 190D back in the day but was terribly disapointed when I drove one - a manual. It was a total lorry with no power - perhaps that has clouded my judgment.
    Mine is a 2.0 Petrol auto,i cant complain really,power seems plenty adequete.Though i tend to drive autos with less haste than manual cars.

    Being honest about it,i cant see why anyone would buy a manual one of these.


  • #46
    Alfasudcrazy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭Alfasudcrazy


    Nice Merc carchaeologist - see it around quite a bit and its a very clean looking example.
    I am also one of those originality nerds. I had a terrible job when searching for my E220 Coupe - so many were horribly modified. Everyone asks me why I have not changed the alloys for the AMG ones but that would ruin this car imo.

    Also is a white Merc a No No? - I have always considered white Mercs stunning almost in any model. To get a nice E220 Coupe in that colour is the icing on the cake for me.

    IMAG0011960x720jpg.jpg


  • #47
    carchaeologist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,318 ✭✭✭✭carchaeologist


    Thanks alfa,saw you in the 78 'sud the a few weeks ago too,great looking car.
    Its all down to personal preference really what wheels you put on the car,if i bought the car standard i would more than likely leave it that way.

    Not sure why white is a no-no,if the paint is in good shape and kept that way its grand imo.


  • #48
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    White is for boy races in ****ty old Toyotas/BMWs IMO (for what little thats worth!). Dark colours esp on Mercs for me.


  • #49
    Johnboy Mac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭Johnboy Mac


    Colour is unimportant imo especially considering the the few bob we are talking about here.

    Better to buy a good car in the 'wrong' colour rather that a poor car in the 'right' colour..................


  • #50
    old boy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭old boy


    Johnboy Mac wrote: »
    Mike65, point about rust is correct especially if it's a UK import due salty roads.

    1. Water ingress into the boot - very common, caused by rear screen seal perished and sunroof drains coming adrift at the exit points on each C pillar at the exterior air vents. The seal is the main issue.
    Also rear lamp seals & boot lock button seal perish, again allowing water ingress to occur into the boot.

    2. Sills & jacking points - check for rust, advisable to inject waxoyl or similar which is very easy to do via the rubber grommets and the rubber jack points.

    3. Plastic cladding (doors, wings & rear 1/4 panel) all rust traps, only way of correctly checking is to remove them.

    4. Inner front wings to front panel - check for rust again.

    5. Battery tray - suffers from rot, drain hole beside can get blocked.

    Others items: Heater matrix gets blocked giving poor hot air , wiper assembly should lubricted, fuel pump relays €80 fail as do OVP €120 (over voltage protection) relays which effect fuel injection etc, blocked fuel filters are not unknown €20 and worn dizzy cap €18 & rotors €10 are common (use Bosch). Window switches & motors pack up. Rattle on start can be worn engine mounts €45ea.

    Suspension: Rear links, 4 ea side, front wishbones & ball joints

    Drivetrain: Prop rubber couplings x 2, centre bearing. Diffs get noisey but will go on forever. Rear subframe mountings 4 in total.

    Steering: Idle arm, drag links & damper become worn.

    That should give you a good idea give you a good idea of what to look for. The most important part is rust.

    a dizzy for 18 lids, cost me 45 last year


  • #51
    Johnboy Mac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭Johnboy Mac


    old boy wrote: »
    a dizzy for 18 lids, cost me 45 last year


    Why?


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