ASTI and TUI vote for Industrial Action

dolliemix · 20-03-2009 02:32AM

Nesf

Are you a parent of a child with special needs?

Hundreds, perhaps thousands of children around the country will no longer have access to the resources or facilities that they require. (as recognised by the Department itself)

These cut backs are hitting the most vulnerable in our education system.

I think a strike is the last resort towards a Government who isn't listening.

One day of disruption, imo, is worth it, if we are seen to be showing these children and their parents that we support them. These cutbacks will effect these children for a lifetime (not for just one day!)

These children have done nothing wrong. They didn't borrow money they didn't have. They didn't abuse the bank system. Why should they pay for it? They've lost their chance of education because there will be no resources to help them when they return to school in September, if they even can return.

It's so unfair.

This is not a strike about pay. Teachers have already taken a pay cut. It's about basic human rights so that every child in this country is given equal opportunities.

nesf · 20-03-2009 03:02AM

dolliemix wrote: »

Nesf

Are you a parent of a child with special needs?

Hundreds, perhaps thousands of children around the country will no longer have access to the resources or facilities that they require. (as recognised by the Department itself)

These cut backs are hitting the most vulnerable in our education system.

I think a strike is the last resort towards a Government who isn't listening.

One day of disruption, imo, is worth it, if we are seen to be showing these children and their parents that we support them. These cutbacks will effect these children for a lifetime (not for just one day!)

These children have done nothing wrong. They didn't borrow money they didn't have. They didn't abuse the bank system. Why should they pay for it? They've lost their chance of education because there will be no resources to help them when they return to school in September, if they even can return.

It's so unfair.

This is not a strike about pay. Teachers have already taken a pay cut. It's about basic human rights so that every child in this country is given equal opportunities.

We're short a third of the entire bloody budget. Services that are both good and needed will have to be trimmed back until we get the fiscal situation under control. Seriously, people who have done nothing wrong are going to feel pain over this no matter what way we cut it. We've had an enormous expansion of special needs assistants over the past decade (much needed we'll all agree) but it was done with income streams that were transitory and now they are gone. There is no way to undo this or conjure up 20 billion in revenue to fill the gap. The money just isn't in the economy.

TheDriver · 20-03-2009 10:24AM

so explain why bank staff got a pay rise just after we had to bail them out or how come we have to pay a higher pension contribution and income levy and be faced with more cuts while our classes are becoming way bigger hence more corrections and the like and as a consequence, less time spent with the kids individually. Teachers like most public servants are annoyed. Govt needs to tackle problems e.g. how come exam correctors have expenses cut 25% and ministers are only 10% cut?

Powerhouse · 20-03-2009 11:28AM

nesf wrote: »

We're short a third of the entire bloody budget. Services that are both good and needed will have to be trimmed back until we get the fiscal situation under control. Seriously, people who have done nothing wrong are going to feel pain over this no matter what way we cut it. We've had an enormous expansion of special needs assistants over the past decade (much needed we'll all agree) but it was done with income streams that were transitory and now they are gone. There is no way to undo this or conjure up 20 billion in revenue to fill the gap. The money just isn't in the economy.

Two things, one - teachers going to school on March 30th will not provide the third of the budget that's required, and two - the government simply cannot keep cutting, it simply has to generate revenue. In that context the government needs to come up with new revenue streams and to regenerate some of the old ones.

And if you want a third thing there's the small matter that it is the middle income earners who pay the most tax. That also has to be addressed in the context of getting revenue streams back on the rails.

But the idea that cutting alone will solve Ireland's problems is fanciful. In fact the longer the government gets away with that fiction, the worse things will be.

TheDriver · 20-03-2009 11:53AM

Does the govt just not want to tackle the real issue, Govt themselves is costing the country a lot of money and not the people working for it. Expenses, committees etc are unbelivable expensive to run

nesf · 20-03-2009 03:27PM

Powerhouse wrote: »

But the idea that cutting alone will solve Ireland's problems is fanciful. In fact the longer the government gets away with that fiction, the worse things will be.

Sure, we need both cuts and new taxes but they're not going to be able to make 20 billion in taxes just appear. Everyone wants the cuts and taxes to effect someone else. This is perfectly understandable but given the scale of the problem they're not going to be able to solve it by bumping up the top rate of tax and disbanding loads of committees and Quangos.

Edit: Just to put this in perspective: We could close down every hospital in the country and fire everyone paid by the Department of Health and shut down every school in the country and fire everyone paid by the Department of Education and still be short money to cover the budget deficit at the end of the year (and this is not taking into account that all of these people would be put on the dole and would create more expenditure that would need to be covered, if you take that into account you can probably throw in the Gardaí, Defence and Agricultural Departments as well into the the closures).

Delphi91 · 20-03-2009 03:50PM

nesf wrote: »

...We've had an enormous expansion of special needs assistants over the past decade (much needed we'll all agree)...

Is that your impression or are you basing it on fact?

nesf · 20-03-2009 03:55PM

Delphi91 wrote: »

Is that your impression or are you basing it on fact?

From 300 to 18,000 people hired in the scheme from 1998 to 2008, from the Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0905/1220544893198.html

An enormous expansion of numbers no?

Delphi91 · 20-03-2009 05:07PM

nesf wrote: »

From 300 to 18,000 people hired in the scheme from 1998 to 2008, from the Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0905/1220544893198.html

An enormous expansion of numbers no?

Yes, it looks like it "on paper". It might be worth asking any Principals/Deputy Principals who post on here if they get all the SNA's that their students are entitled to. Because I know that we don't.

Are you aware that an SNA does not follow with a student from primary to second level? You have to re-apply all over again for an SNA despite the fact that testing and your experience of the childs abilities clearly shows that one is required. Even with psychological reports from NEPS (National Educational Psychological Service) stating that a child is entitled to an SNA, they are often refused. I am aware of students who arrive in second level whose level of literacy is so low that they are below the lowest testable age (6 years old!) and they still don't get SNAs.

You might have a class of, say, 15 students, all of whom have been recommended to have an SNA, and maybe one or two get them. They are then assigned to that student alone and are not supposed to help the other students in the class.

If a student with an SNA in that class leaves, the SNA cannot be transferred to another student. Their post dies.

The rise from 300 to 18,000, which at face value appears to be a huge rise, is not a true reflection of the numbers of SNAs that are actually required in many schools.

nesf · 20-03-2009 05:31PM

Delphi91 wrote: »

Yes, it looks like it "on paper". It might be worth asking any Principals/Deputy Principals who post on here if they get all the SNA's that their students are entitled to. Because I know that we don't.

Are you aware that an SNA does not follow with a student from primary to second level? You have to re-apply all over again for an SNA despite the fact that testing and your experience of the childs abilities clearly shows that one is required. Even with psychological reports from NEPS (National Educational Psychological Service) stating that a child is entitled to an SNA, they are often refused. I am aware of students who arrive in second level whose level of literacy is so low that they are below the lowest testable age (6 years old!) and they still don't get SNAs.

You might have a class of, say, 15 students, all of whom have been recommended to have an SNA, and maybe one or two get them. They are then assigned to that student alone and are not supposed to help the other students in the class.

If a student with an SNA in that class leaves, the SNA cannot be transferred to another student. Their post dies.

The rise from 300 to 18,000, which at face value appears to be a huge rise, is not a true reflection of the numbers of SNAs that are actually required in many schools.

Quite possibly, my sister worked as one where she was dealing with three separate small rural schools. I don't disagree that the system is very far from ideal.

The problem is one of money and funding. There are a multitude of good causes and not enough cash to go around, such is Politics. We don't have the money to provide the perfect SNA system without taking it away from other areas that are equally deserving of it. Christ, we were spending €300 million just to get the SNA system we had in 2008, which again I'm sure we'll all agree wasn't good enough. In total €820 million was put towards Special Needs Education in 2007, an increase of 30% over the amount put towards it in 2006. We've been throwing money at the problem and it hasn't done enough. We've not been getting a good return on our money (as pointed out by you there aren't enough SNAs to go around etc). In contrast the entire current expenditure on the Gardaí was only €1.3 billion in 2007. Somehow we've been spending well over half the entire budget for the Gardaí on Special Needs Education and still not getting a good deal.

Piste · 21-03-2009 12:43AM

dolliemix wrote: »

This is not a strike about pay. Teachers have already taken a pay cut. It's about basic human rights so that every child in this country is given equal opportunities.

Opportunities like say....having the monday before our Irish orals to go over last minute practice with our tea-oh wait no we can't you'll be on strike.

Out of all the days in the week why did the unions pick that particular Monday? I realise it's the public sector and not just the teachers, but do they not realise that thousands of students will be stressing over their orals and will not be very happy about having one less day of help from teachers.

It pretty much throws it the claim that these strikes are "for the children". Whatever aboutt he strike being "right" or "wrong", from a PR point of view it's very silly as you'll have a lot of unsympathetic LC students and their parents.

Toto Wolfcastle · 21-03-2009 01:00AM

Piste wrote: »

Opportunities like say....having the monday before our Irish orals to go over last minute practice with our tea-oh wait no we can't you'll be on strike.

Out of all the days in the week why did the unions pick that particular Monday? I realise it's the public sector and not just the teachers, but do they not realise that thousands of students will be stressing over their orals and will not be very happy about having one less day of help from teachers.

It pretty much throws it the claim that these strikes are "for the children". Whatever aboutt he strike being "right" or "wrong", from a PR point of view it's very silly as you'll have a lot of unsympathetic LC students and their parents.

I can guarantee you that many teachers are not at all happy about this. One guy I teach with has been told to fit all 93 French oral candidates into 4 days, which is impossible. Both the teacher and the students will undoubtedly suffer. Another teacher, our school steward, has opted not to examine the German orals because she feels that the pressure will be far too much. She is expected to examine in 6 schools in 4 days.

I would gladly march at the weekend. I am in no way in favour of disrupting the orals, or any other part of school life. When I received the badly-worded ballot paper, I asked a few people if they thought industrial action would be taken. I was told by all of them that the ASTI had said it would be the last resort, and that it was merely about sending a message to the government about how serious we are.

I have since found out from some teachers in the INTO that they were aware that they were voting for a definite strike. A lot of the teachers that I work with feel like we were betrayed by the ASTI. We were simply given incorrect information.

As far as I'm concerned, the students will suffer enough disruption because of the cutbacks. There is no need to protest on a school day. A far better plan of action would be to stop getting medical certs for 1 or 2 day absences. A lot of people are getting certs to save the dwindling funds. I say let the government deal with the fact that they made a huge mistake by allowing the money to run out long before the end of the school year.

Or take as much of my money as you want but put it back into education where it is desperately needed.

nesf · 21-03-2009 02:01AM

What I don't get is why your unions don't organise things so that Leaving Cert classes run as normal. All the disruption with all the PR benefits of looking responsible.

janeybabe wrote:

I have since found out from some teachers in the INTO that they were aware that they were voting for a definite strike. A lot of the teachers that I work with feel like we were betrayed by the ASTI. We were simply given incorrect information.

Seriously, teaching unions are among the most strike happy of all public service unions (well, no the INO is probably more militant). You should have known that "last resort" in ANTI terms was at best a euphemism for "what we plan on doing".

dolliemix · 21-03-2009 02:24AM

Piste wrote: »

Opportunities like say....having the monday before our Irish orals to go over last minute practice with our tea-oh wait no we can't you'll be on strike.

Out of all the days in the week why did the unions pick that particular Monday? I realise it's the public sector and not just the teachers, but do they not realise that thousands of students will be stressing over their orals and will not be very happy about having one less day of help from teachers.

It pretty much throws it the claim that these strikes are "for the children". Whatever aboutt he strike being "right" or "wrong", from a PR point of view it's very silly as you'll have a lot of unsympathetic LC students and their parents.

You've had SIX YEARS of tuition from your teacher!

I am an oral irish examiner and an Irish teacher. Believe me - this is a nightmare for us. I've been told that I have to examine the same amount of candidates (91) in four days now and not five.

If your oral had been arranged for the Monday, you would not have had the benefit of your teacher the day before anyway.

At this stage, my Leaving Cert students and I reckon it's probably a good thing for them. They've the benefit of one extra day to go over notes, watch TG4 all day, meet up with friends and practice speaking more Irish. If you had school on Monday, you'd be attending other classes, getting homework and basically having less time to work on your Irish.

To be honest, by next weekend, you should be going over everything, not trying to learn anything new. Use it as an opportunity or even a bonus.

If you are feeling very stressed about it let your Irish teacher know this coming Monday.

I think students and their parents should be looking at the whole picture. These cutbacks and introduction of college fees are going to have a huge effect on third level education next year and the year after.

When you're mid-way through a degree course in two or three years and are told it wont be continuing due to lack of funding, the fact that you didn't get to see your teacher the Monday before your Irish oral exam will seem completely insignificant. But that is basically what is happening up and down the country for children with special needs.

If the Government continue to target education in order to sort out the financial mess this country is in - you and all Leaving Cert students will be hit in a more painful way in the future. When fees start coming in and rising year after year, you will understand why it is, that teachers and members of the general public are so angry.

I didn't want to strike either and I certainly don't want any of my students to feel under any more pressure than they already are. But it is a necessary evil at this moment in time for your future, more so than ours!

Ar aon nós go n-éirí leat sa scrúdú béil

Toto Wolfcastle · 21-03-2009 10:18AM

nesf wrote: »

Seriously, teaching unions are among the most strike happy of all public service unions (well, no the INO is probably more militant). You should have known that "last resort" in ANTI terms was at best a euphemism for "what we plan on doing".

I 'should have known' nothing. I believe what I am told by the union I pay to represent me. And anyway, I agree with you that this shouldn't be happening. No need to get on my back about it just because I'm a teacher.

nesf · 21-03-2009 03:21PM

janeybabe wrote: »

I 'should have known' nothing. I believe what I am told by the union I pay to represent me. And anyway, I agree with you that this shouldn't be happening. No need to get on my back about it just because I'm a teacher.

Not on your back at all. Just recommending more cynicism when dealing with ANTI.

Toto Wolfcastle · 21-03-2009 03:25PM

nesf wrote: »

Not on your back at all. Just recommending more cynicism when dealing with ANTI.

I'll keep that in mind, thanks. This first year of teaching has taught me a lot....and my opinion of the unions has changed an awful lot.

nesf · 21-03-2009 03:42PM

janeybabe wrote: »

I'll keep that in mind, thanks. This first year of teaching has taught me a lot....and my opinion of the unions has changed an awful lot.

They have their constituency, you just need to keep that in mind and are not necessarily run by your average teacher/nurse/whatever. Often, a bit like politicians, unions will do things (i.e. strike) just to be seen to be doing something to represent their members.

E.T. · 22-03-2009 01:53PM

nesf wrote: »

Seriously, teaching unions are among the most strike happy of all public service unions (well, no the INO is probably more militant). You should have known that "last resort" in ANTI terms was at best a euphemism for "what we plan on doing".

Where did you get that idea from? When was the last time ALL of the teachers unions in Ireland went on strike? It's not just teachers going on strike, it's a variety of unions, so why single out teachers here?

nesf · 22-03-2009 02:51PM

E.T. wrote: »

It's not just teachers going on strike, it's a variety of unions, so why single out teachers here?

Well, this thread is specifically about the ASTI and TUI going on strike, so to talk about other unions would be off-topic no?

dolliemix · 22-03-2009 03:24PM

Nesf you have a very simplistic view of order of events here.

You are saying that teachers are going on strike just so they can be seen to be doing something. just to let you know - a lot of the damage is already done, we're trying to make our voices heard here, because nobody listens to us.. We protested on a Saturday a few weeks ago. One hundred thousand people turned up to the march. Even back then, people didn't look in to our concerns and simply claimed teachers are always complaining, sure don't they have jobs for life and great holidays.

Yes, we have great holidays!

Janeybabe consider this, before you judge your colleagues.
.
1. We are joining other public servants on 30th March and showing solidarity. This is not a 'teacher' thing. It is all public servants coming together expressing their anger at how the Government are dealing with this economic crisis. Our Government are targeting education to save money. Teachers took their pay cut and that is not the issue. We are saying, yes, we'll do our bit, but can we please see others experiencing the pain. To date, that is not happening in terms of politicians salaries and bankers who are still running banks and are on over the top incomes. Personally, I don't understand, and never have, why people need to own more than one house. They've been pushing the likes of you and me out of the market for years. Now that the bubble has burst, the government is doing all it can to protect home owners at the expense of our children. It's wrong.

2. On average 2- 3 teachers will be let go from their jobs in June. Consider the amount of schools in the country and the amount of teachers who will be unemployed. Add to that the amount of teachers coming out of the teacher training courses.

3. Special needs has been hit drastically. There are children in our system, and I've spoken about this in a previous post so I wont go into it, who will not be able to continue in education as a result of this. It is not fair to these children that this is happening.

4. Pupil-teacher ratio will be increased.

5. General progress in education is on hold at the moment which is frustrating but expected at a time like this. If you are not a teacher, you will have no concept as to how these cutbacks and lack of financial support can effect the individual child. But above all else, there will be no support for technology advances, which in this day and age are paramount to keeping with the times and equipping our children for the future.

The list goes on....and I'm sure somebody will respond with a very insightful 'sure the whole country is suffering'!!

We have a responsibility, as teachers, to fight for our students. It is our job to tell the Government to stop taking from education. Nobody else will, because unless you are a teacher you can no idea as to how these cutbacks can effect our children. We're being brave and controversial but we're doing the right thing.

Janeybabe, there was a strike, the year I started teaching, ten years ago. It's a very painful experience. Everyone, from every angle, will tell you why teachers are wrong and selfish, but just ask yourself, are these people teachers themselves? Have they any notion as to how the education of the children, that we see from day to day, is effected. The answer is probably no!

Yes, teachers are very aware there is a global recession. We see the emotional side to that every day in our classrooms. Anything that happens in our society effects our children.

We're asking the Taoiseach to soften the blow. Why are our children being targeted? Why shouldn't the very wealthy people in our society bear the burden of this economic crisis? We have been willing to play our part up to this point but we believe that the burden should be bared equally across the board.

nesf · 22-03-2009 03:28PM

dolliemix wrote: »

We protested on a Saturday a few weeks ago. One hundred thousand people turned up to the march. Even back then, people didn't look in to our concerns and simply claimed teachers are always complaining, sure don't they have jobs for life and great holidays.

So instead you're going to protest on a school day and disrupt classes for Leaving Cert students just before oral exams? What does that achieve that a weekend protest doesn't? Your views have been made clear on this.

What are you threatening, that you'll start striking regularly until the Government rows back on their decision? That you'll stop doing your jobs until the decision is reversed? How does this end if the Government doesn't give in?

freire · 22-03-2009 04:19PM

nesf wrote: »

What are you threatening, that you'll start striking regularly until the Government rows back on their decision? That you'll stop doing your jobs until the decision is reversed? How does this end if the Government doesn't give in?

AFIK nobody is expecting a rowback on the 'levy' (absolute lie) decision. The protest is in order to highlight the inequitable nature of the pay cut. This point has been made ad nauseam in this thread and others, if you haven't got it by now...

As for the 'stop doing your jobs', well things will change quite dramatically soon enough. Our unions have decided that PT meetings will no longer be held outside school hours for example. Teachers will work to rule and this will make for a change believe me.

I don't have a job for life, few if any of my younger colleagues do either, and on part-time contracts you sometimes wonder if it's worth getting out of bed, the deductions list just gets longer but my rent etc stays the same. Ah but the holidays.

dolliemix · 22-03-2009 04:25PM

nesf wrote: »

So instead you're going to protest on a school day and disrupt classes for Leaving Cert students just before oral exams? What does that achieve that a weekend protest doesn't? Your views have been made clear on this.

What are you threatening, that you'll start striking regularly until the Government rows back on their decision? That you'll stop doing your jobs until the decision is reversed? How does this end if the Government doesn't give in?

Calm down. You obviously aren't a teacher. You're being completely melodramatic.

My students are ready to go in and do their oral tomorrow! I have been teaching them for six years. One day is not going to effect them!

We are protesting on their behalf because they don't have the power to do that.

nesf · 22-03-2009 04:27PM

freire wrote: »

AFIK nobody is expecting a rowback on the 'levy' (absolute lie) decision. The protest is in order to highlight the inequitable nature of the pay cut. This point has been made ad nauseam in this thread and others, if you haven't got it by now...

I was referring to the decisions that dolliemix listed, i.e. cutbacks in Special Needs etc.

freire wrote: »

I don't have a job for life, few if any of my younger colleagues do either, and on part-time contracts you sometimes wonder if it's worth getting out of bed, the deductions list just gets longer but my rent etc stays the same. Ah but the holidays.

Well of course few of your younger colleagues do either, that's how the system works. If we look at your older colleagues the vast majority have permanent positions. This is neither here nor there though. As much as I'd like to see permanent positions in teaching replaced with some form of performance measuring to get rid of the worst teachers and reward the better ones, it's not relevant to the strike at hand.

nesf · 22-03-2009 04:29PM

dolliemix wrote: »

Calm down. You obviously aren't a teacher. You're being completely melodramatic.

My students are ready to go in and do their oral tomorrow! I have been teaching them for six years. One day is not going to effect them!

We are protesting on their behalf because they don't have the power to do that.

Melodramatic? I asked you what does this achieve that a weekend protest doesn't. I think it's a fair question. You could hold a strike in support of the March 30th strike on a weekend and not disrupt any classes. Surely if the interests of students are at the forefront of your minds then this would be preferable?

dolliemix · 22-03-2009 04:37PM

nesf wrote: »

Melodramatic? I asked you what does this achieve that a weekend protest doesn't. I think it's a fair question. You could hold a strike in support of the March 30th strike on a weekend and not disrupt any classes. Surely if the interests of students are at the forefront of your minds then this would be preferable?

Sorry that I have to point out the obvious here :rolleyes: We did the weekend protest and nobody heard us!

Students interests are at the forefront of our minds every second of every day. We stand infront of them in our classrooms. We bring their work home with us and we plan where to go next and how we can do that with their best interests at heart before we see them again every day!

Nesf, it's very easy to judge when you're not in the thick of it. The irony of this is you seem to think you know what's best for our students when you really aren't qualified to. If you feel so strongly about students and their futures join us on the 30th March!

kathy2 · 22-03-2009 04:40PM

I think setting up public against private thing is totally wrong.

Teachers work hard in a now extreme enviroment, any one listening to Joe Duffy during the week can hear the claim happy lunatics baying for the blood of individual teachers for the most petty of reasons.

Its actually as dangerous in schools now for teachers as it is for nurses on a Saturday night. The insane sense of entitlement and stupidity and greed that seems to have taken over people when it comes to public services is insane.

I think every teacher in the county should strike for danger money and as for this farce of a pension levy, that has no connection to a pension please.

I'll be marching

Lemming · 22-03-2009 04:44PM

Y'know ....

All of the teachers who are unhappy about being misled into strike action and that this does not represent you or your interests, you do indeed have a choice;

Break the union line.

it is woefully clear that they [the Unions] do not represent you, or your best interests, and are playing theatrical politics to justify their own existence and pay at the expense of yours in the long-run. If you really want them to actually start representing you, why aren't you putting your feet so far up the union leaderships collective arse that toecaps are replacing noses? Why this apathetic "shurre what I can do, they're all striking" mindset? Either send a message to them that you are unhappy with their deceitful leadership and want serious change and representation or leave. They can't function without members.

kathy2 · 22-03-2009 04:55PM

I am a teacher and feel we have no choice.

We voted for strike, the union consists of mostly teachers and a few paid representatives and have regular meetings.

Our schools would be totally unbearable without them, I dont know what you are talking about:D

ASTI and TUI vote for Industrial Action

Comments