ASTI and TUI vote for Industrial Action

nesf

dolliemix wrote: »

Sorry that I have to point out the obvious here :rolleyes: We did the weekend protest and nobody heard us!

How do you know that? I heard you, and knew it happened...

dolliemix wrote: »

Nesf, it's very easy to judge when you're not in the thick of it. The irony of this is you seem to think you know what's best for our students when you really aren't qualified to.

Nice for you to assume I've never taught a class given that you know nothing of my qualifications, background, training or current occupation.*


*Not that I'm going to discuss them because they would make me far too identifiable. Third level is far harder to remain anonymous in than second.


Edit: Actually, look I'm tired of arguing about this. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. I can't see either of us convincing the other of their viewpoint.

Lemming

kathy2 wrote: »

I am a teacher and feel we have no choice.

You always. Always. ALLLLLLLLLLLWAYS. have a choice.

Quit with the "shurrre what can I do?" mentality. It'd be a start to this nation collectively fixing its disgustingly f*cking inept, cretinous, disfunctional self.

We voted for strike

Funny that a lot of your colleagues would seem to very much disagree with that sentiment of "we voted for strike", since they were evidently told fairy-tales about what was going on.

dolliemix

nesf wrote: »

How do you know that? I heard you, and knew it happened...



Nice for you to assume I've never taught a class given that you know nothing of my qualifications, background, training or current occupation.*


*Not that I'm going to discuss them because they would make me far too identifiable. Third level is far harder to remain anonymous in than second.


Edit: Actually, look I'm tired of arguing about this. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that. I can't see either of us convincing the other of their viewpoint.

In that case, I would have thought you'd have a better understanding of why this strike is important! Third Level is going to feel the brunt of this in a year or two. There will be a huge knock-on effect.

Lemming

dolliemix wrote: »

In that case, I would have thought you'd have a better understanding of why this strike is important!

Likewise I'm utterly dismayed that supposedly intelligent people tasked with imparting knowledge to future generations don't have a better understanding of why this strike is both futile and counter-productive.

See below.

Third Level is going to feel the brunt of this in a year or two. There will be a huge knock-on effect.

Unless the serious budgetary deficit is addressed, there wont be much of a third-level left in a "year or two" since we'll be busy getting utterly, utterly raped by the IMF ...

nesf

dolliemix wrote: »

In that case, I would have thought you'd have a better understanding of why this strike is important! Third Level is going to feel the brunt of this in a year or two. There will be a huge knock-on effect.

Thing is, the money isn't there. Striking is pointless, the budget deficit is one third of budget expenditure.

nesf

nesf wrote: »

Thing is, the money isn't there. Striking is pointless, the budget deficit is one third of budget expenditure.

Case and point even Labour think the strikes should be called off: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0322/gilmoree.html

com7

typical of people with permanent jobs " we ve no choice but to strike " what crap the only people that will be hurt here is kids and parents who will have to make other arrangments to get their kids minded for the day " I HOPE YERE DOCKED FOR THE DAY !!!

Toto Wolfcastle

I'm certainly not 'judging' anyone. I'm looking at things from the point of view of the oral examiners who will have to fit upwards of 90 students in over 4 days instead of 5. Having spoken to those who have examined before, it seems that it is hard enough over 5 days. This is what I took from conversations I had with people long before any industrial action was considered. It is utterly unfair on both the students and the teachers to expect that the orals will be conducted in this way. I am aware that other public workers are taking industrial action on that same day, but there are different circumstances to consider here. Saying that the students had 6 years to prepare is simply not a good enough answer. The examiners will be absoultely wrecked and no one can say whether the standard of examination will be as high as previous years.

I would be in favour of some sort of protest against the cutbacks in education (not the pension levy, that is not going to change) but to do it on a crucial day in the academic calander is simply unfair.

There are few teachers in my school who is in favour of industrial action, be it on the 30th or any other day. It will not change anything, particularly because so many other workers are protesting on the same day. The government is not going to be able to satisfy everyone's demands, so will probably satisfy no ones.

I'm extremelly angry that both students and teachers will suffer because of the cutbacks, but making them suffer more is not the answer. I said in a previous post what I believe should have been done in protest all along and I stand by that.

freire

com7 wrote: »

typical of people with permanent jobs " we ve no choice but to strike " what crap the only people that will be hurt here is kids and parents who will have to make other arrangments to get their kids minded for the day " I HOPE YERE DOCKED FOR THE DAY !!!

Nice mix of begrudgery, ill-will, ignorance and condescension. I like to think my job is about more than looking after other people's kids. And of course we won't be paid for the day, your hopes are realised.

kathy2

In order to assist you in connecting to the right staff member, please listen to all options before making a selection:

To lie about why your child is absent, Press 1

To make excuses for why your child did not do his work, Press 2

To complain about what we do, Press 3

To cuss out staff members, Press 4

To ask why you didn't get needed information that was already enclosed in your newsletter and several bulletins mailed to you, Press 5

If you want us to raise your child, Press 6

If you want to reach out and touch, slap or hit someone, Press 7

To request another teacher for the third time this year, Press 8

To complain about bus transportation Press 9

To complain about school lunches Press 0

If you realize this is the real world and your child must be accountable/responsible for his/her own behavior, class work, homework, and that it's not the teachers fault for your child(ren)'s lack of effort---Hang up and have a nice day!!!

Toto Wolfcastle

Alright guys, can we play nicely please? There is no reason why a group of mature adults can't have a debate on this matter without resorting to childishness. Thank you.

dolliemix

janeybabe wrote: »

I'm certainly not 'judging' anyone. I'm looking at things from the point of view of the oral examiners who will have to fit upwards of 90 students in over 4 days instead of 5. Having spoken to those who have examined before, it seems that it is hard enough over 5 days. This is what I took from conversations I had with people long before any industrial action was considered. It is utterly unfair on both the students and the teachers to expect that the orals will be conducted in this way. I am aware that other public workers are taking industrial action on that same day, but there are different circumstances to consider here. Saying that the students had 6 years to prepare is simply not a good enough answer. The examiners will be absoultely wrecked and no one can say whether the standard of examination will be as high as previous years.

I would be in favour of some sort of protest against the cutbacks in education (not the pension levy, that is not going to change) but to do it on a crucial day in the academic calander is simply unfair.

There are few teachers in my school who is in favour of industrial action, be it on the 30th or any other day. It will not change anything, particularly because so many other workers are protesting on the same day. The government is not going to be able to satisfy everyone's demands, so will probably satisfy no ones.

I'm extremelly angry that both students and teachers will suffer because of the cutbacks, but making them suffer more is not the answer. I said in a previous post what I believe should have been done in protest all along and I stand by that.

I am an oral examiner Janeybabe. I am effected by this more than anyone else. My students who I have been working with for six years will lose one day of tuition due to this strike. They are fine about it! They see it as an opportunity to get more study and revision done! As I've said before, also, they will not have the distraction of classes and homework to deal with on the Monday. There is no point, claiming that this is a 'crucial day' and making this one day in the school year sound so important above all other days. It's a day like any other. Your job now, is to put the children's minds at ease. It will not effect their studies or their results.

As I said I am an oral examiner. I am due to examine 91 students on the week beginning 30th March. I will now have to examine them in four days instead of five. Yes, it's going to be hard and tiring, but not impossible. I will be wrecked like all the other examiners but at least I have a job! Why would you suggest that the examining standard won't be as high as previous years? I have been examining for six years now - My questions aren't going to be any different just because I'm going on strike on Monday. I'll take 23 students a day instead of 20. If those teachers were being honest they'd tell you that they were probably going to be finished on the Friday by lunch-time. Now that won't be the case - big deal! Why would you question the standard of the examinations, and scare people especially students, when your information is not based on fact.

We're protesting to make sure situations like this don't come in permanently. We're telling the Government that we are angry and that we won't be walked over. Believe me - you'll far more to complain about in your staffroom next year when the repercussions of these cutbacks begin to sink in for real in our classrooms. It will be a far more stressful environment than the one facing us today.

gaeilgegrinds

Com 7, do your homework and see how many teachers have been made permanent recently, it doesn't happen. Cutbacks in schools are atrocious, that's my main grievance, I see who is missing out. Why should students with special needs be hit?

Teacherman

kathy2 wrote: »

In order to assist you in connecting to the right staff member, please listen to all options before making a selection:

To lie about why your child is absent, Press 1

To make excuses for why your child did not do his work, Press 2

To complain about what we do, Press 3

To cuss out staff members, Press 4

To ask why you didn't get needed information that was already enclosed in your newsletter and several bulletins mailed to you, Press 5

If you want us to raise your child, Press 6

If you want to reach out and touch, slap or hit someone, Press 7

To request another teacher for the third time this year, Press 8

To complain about bus transportation Press 9

To complain about school lunches Press 0

If you realize this is the real world and your child must be accountable/responsible for his/her own behavior, class work, homework, and that it's not the teachers fault for your child(ren)'s lack of effort---Hang up and have a nice day!!!

Brillant loved it ! On a serious note-I voted yes and will support strike. If you voted no and are a member you should still support it. Union membership is not something to be tossed aside lightly. It was a Democratic Vote and sometimes you are on the winning side of a vote, sometimes a losing side.
If people quit the union (over this) or never join and everybody did the same then the Government would bring in the cult of Managerialism so prevalent in the UK-it destroyed their system.

Non union members should turn up for work instead on getting a day off-stand by your principles!

Teacherman

dolliemix wrote: »

I am an oral examiner Janeybabe. I am effected by this more than anyone else. My students who I have been working with for six years will lose one day of tuition due to this strike. They are fine about it! They see it as an opportunity to get more study and revision done! As I've said before, also, they will not have the distraction of classes and homework to deal with on the Monday. There is no point, claiming that this is a 'crucial day' and making this one day in the school year sound so important above all other days. It's a day like any other. Your job now, is to put the children's minds at ease. It will not effect their studies or their results.

As I said I am an oral examiner. I am due to examine 91 students on the week beginning 30th March. I will now have to examine them in four days instead of five. Yes, it's going to be hard and tiring, but not impossible. I will be wrecked like all the other examiners but at least I have a job! Why would you suggest that the examining standard won't be as high as previous years? I have been examining for six years now - My questions aren't going to be any different just because I'm going on strike on Monday. I'll take 23 students a day instead of 20. If those teachers were being honest they'd tell you that they were probably going to be finished on the Friday by lunch-time. Now that won't be the case - big deal! Why would you question the standard of the examinations, and scare people especially students, when your information is not based on fact.

We're protesting to make sure situations like this don't come in permanently. We're telling the Government that we are angry and that we won't be walked over. Believe me - you'll far more to complain about in your staffroom next year when the repercussions of these cutbacks begin to sink in for real in our classrooms. It will be a far more stressful environment than the one facing us today.

Government knew since January March 30th was day but yet went ahead and scheduled orals then-brillant. ICTU marked March 30th as day to vote on. (JAN)

Lemming

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

Why should students with special needs be hit?

If you think that this strike is over students, or students with special needs, you are very much mistaken. If you do feel that this strike should be over the above, and you are doing so, your voice is being, and will be, lost. The unions most certainly are not striking over students in any way shape or form. They're striking to serve their own existence.

Did you ever stop to ask why there was a "one-size-fits-all" ballot? There's your first clue as to motive.

Don't pretend this is about special needs students or anything else. Because it's not. The same way the rallying cry at the last major strike was over better deals for this country, because it wasn't. It was over protectionism for a guilded "elite" of workers. To pretend it's for a noble cause is to sully the genuine needs of those in need.

As for why should students with special needs be hit? Why should anybody else be it? It's not fair, it's not right, but that's the way it is right now because there. Is. No. Money.

dolliemix

Lemming wrote: »

If you think that this strike is over students, or students with special needs, you are very much mistaken. If you do feel that this strike should be over the above, and you are doing so, your voice is being, and will be, lost. The unions most certainly are not striking over students in any way shape or form. They're striking to serve their own existence.

Did you ever stop to ask why there was a "one-size-fits-all" ballot? There's your first clue as to motive.

Don't pretend this is about special needs students or anything else. Because it's not. The same way the rallying cry at the last major strike was over better deals for this country, because it wasn't. It was over protectionism for a guilded "elite" of workers. To pretend it's for a noble cause is to sully the genuine needs of those in need.

As for why should students with special needs be hit? Why should anybody else be it? It's not fair, it's not right, but that's the way it is right now because there. Is. No. Money.

I just hope nobody actually believes this! Where are you getting this information? You'd be better off posting on the conspiracy theory thread! There is no substance to what you've just written

Lemming

dolliemix wrote: »

I just hope nobody actually believes this! Where are you getting this information? You'd be better off posting on the conspiracy theory thread! There is no substance to what you've just written

Was there, or was there not, a "one-size-fits-all" ballot presented to members of several teaching unions? i.e. no means to specifically state what they were balloting on other than "we are generally unhappy" ?

I seem to recall (either here, or on the politics forum I'm not sure which) several teachers (or people involved in the teaching profession to some degree or other) making note of the fact that they weren't even being told precisely what it was they were balloting on.

So once again, was there, or was ther not a one-size-fits-all ballot? Ironically such a perversion of a democratic tool seems to have missed your notice.

As for theatrical politics, it's as clear as day that this is what the union leadership are engaging in. They walked out of talks a few weeks ago so that they could say "we didn't back down, aren't we great" when they knew full well that cuts were inevitable and that they should have tried to hammer out cuts that weren't so deep or perhaps misguided. They sold you, and every other union member, down the river to justify their own existence. And are doing so again now.

But as with the saying that people get the politicians they deserve, the union members get the leaders they deserve as well.

ateam

dolliemix wrote: »

I just hope nobody actually believes this! Where are you getting this information? You'd be better off posting on the conspiracy theory thread! There is no substance to what you've just written

Lemming is bang on. What planet are you living on? Teachers are people and most people only care about their pay packets.

A permanent teacher does not care about education cut backs or should I say they do not care enough to strike over it. They are only having this strike because of the pension levy, they did not seek strike action last October when the pupil teacher ratio was increased and substitution payments were stopped. I wish teachers would just admit they're selfish and not promote this strike action as something about students. The student's with learning disabilities line is a complete smoke screen, no teacher cares about that. Just be honest and say it's about money.

Secondly, the idea that teachers can take unlimited career leave and retain their permanent position is disgraceful. That is one area that needs reform. A time limit should be introduced because it is unfair.

dolliemix

ateam wrote: »

Lemming is bang on. What planet are you living on? Teachers are people and most people only care about their pay packets.

A permanent teacher does not care about education cut backs or should I say they do not care enough to strike over it. They are only having this strike because of the pension levy, they did not seek strike action last October when the pupil teacher ratio was increased and substitution payments were stopped. I wish teachers would just admit they're selfish and not promote this strike action as something about students. The student's with learning disabilities line is a complete smoke screen, no teacher cares about that. Just be honest and say it's about money.

Secondly, the idea that teachers can take unlimited career leave and retain their permanent position is disgraceful. That is one area that needs reform. A time limit should be introduced because it is unfair.

Rubbish ! This is simply not true. The cutbacks will effect us in our classrooms on a day to day basis. Overcrowding in classes and lack of special needs assistance can be hugely stressful for a teacher. It will place more demands on teachers when we are already working to the max!

It's very easy to state that we are naive and don't know what we're doing. The several teachers, who Lemming says didn't know what they were voting for, could have done more research. Attended some branch meetings. There are plenty of teachers out there, who sit and moan about the union not working for them etc but haven't contributed in any way themselves.

This strike is not about the pension levy. We've already been hit with that (twice). We're willing to take a pay cut if we can be assured that it's not just us getting hit. Inspite of the recession there are still a lot of very wealthy people in this country who aren't paying taxes or getting their wages cut

spurious

ateam wrote: »

A permanent teacher does not care about education cut backs or should I say they do not care enough to strike over it.

Which permanent teacher is that?

ateam wrote: »

Secondly, the idea that teachers can take unlimited career leave and retain their permanent position is disgraceful.

If that were the case, it would be disgraceful - unfortunately it's not the case.

Trotter

ateam wrote: »

A permanent teacher does not care about education cut backs or should I say they do not care enough to strike over it.

I'm a permanent teacher. I care about the cut backs and how much less time I have with each individual child because of class sizes etc. I care enough to strike over it.

So. What you've written is obviously driven by some other motive, because its certainly not driven by fact of any kind.

ateam wrote: »

The student's with learning disabilities line is a complete smoke screen, no teacher cares about that.

Utter rubbish..

TheDriver

don't you just love people like ateam who obviously have no idea about teaching and have massive chip on their shoulder because some teacher sometime gave them a hard time and now has an axe to grind because naturally we have the cushiest job around! How come this forum draws the most extreme teacher haters who don't care about debate and throw around the usual IBEC type statements

Toto Wolfcastle

If you have a problem with a post please report it. Back on topic please.

ateam

TheDriver wrote: »

don't you just love people like ateam who obviously have no idea about teaching and have massive chip on their shoulder because some teacher sometime gave them a hard time and now has an axe to grind because naturally we have the cushiest job around! How come this forum draws the most extreme teacher haters who don't care about debate and throw around the usual IBEC type statements

For your information, I am a teacher, but that's irrelevant. If you feel that teachers are the only ones who can comment on the matter, then you're as ignorant as those you're giving out about.

I experienced the reaction of the October budget, I saw the lack of teaching staff at the protest march in December. 6 staff turned up and why? Because the majority of staff are permanent and don't care.

Now I have no doubt in my mind that they're are many decent, noble selfless teachers who genuinely are not interested in their salaries, I really do. But my point is that the majority don't care about anything other than their wages every fortnight - the posters complaining about my comments may be the genuinely interested people, but they need to realise as presumably intelligent people that teachers are like every body else - they only care about their wages.

And by the way I don't find anything wrong with it, I just wish people would be more honest and admit it.

ateam

Trotter wrote: »

I'm a permanent teacher. I care about the cut backs and how much less time I have with each individual child because of class sizes etc. I care enough to strike over it.

So. What you've written is obviously driven by some other motive, because its certainly not driven by fact of any kind.




Utter rubbish..

"Utter rubbish" doesn't address the point.

DJDC

I experienced the reaction of the October budget, I saw the lack of teaching staff at the protest march in December. 6 staff turned up and why? Because the majority of staff are permanent and don't care.

I think thats the proof right there that the main reason for the teachers strike is pay cuts not education cuts. Its just like the other unions trying to rally the general public around the idea that the government were in bed with the developers and banks. Its bad enough all the public sector unions to be calling strikes over their over-inflated highest in EU unsustainable pay when govt finances are in meltdown. But hiding behind smoke screens like education cuts that were announced last Oct is desperately low shameful tactics.

Powerhouse

Lemming wrote: »

If you think that this strike is over students, or students with special needs, you are very much mistaken. If you do feel that this strike should be over the above, and you are doing so, your voice is being, and will be, lost. The unions most certainly are not striking over students in any way shape or form. They're striking to serve their own existence.

Did you ever stop to ask why there was a "one-size-fits-all" ballot? There's your first clue as to motive.

Don't pretend this is about special needs students or anything else. Because it's not. The same way the rallying cry at the last major strike was over better deals for this country, because it wasn't. It was over protectionism for a guilded "elite" of workers. To pretend it's for a noble cause is to sully the genuine needs of those in need.

As for why should students with special needs be hit? Why should anybody else be it? It's not fair, it's not right, but that's the way it is right now because there. Is. No. Money.

"Why was there a one-size fits all ballot?" There's no need to stop to ask this at all as the answer is obvious. It is a potential national strike involving all unions, whether public or private sector, so one size does indeed fit all.

It is a matter for the members of each union to make themselves aware of the issues relating to their own particular cases.

And no matter how dramatically you try to present the notion that there is no money, it is absolute balderdash. There is money, bags of it - people are not being paid in smarties just yet. There is simply a lot less money that there was, and the argument now is where should that remaining money be best spent and where, in the context of retaining important social commitments, (which special needs should be in any civilised society - who cares how big my next car is, or where I can afford to go on holidays?) should spending cease.

Teacher unions are as entitled to voice an opinion on this as anyone else. If you think it is not fair and not right to hit students with special needs then you should be arguing instead for money to be saved in places where it would be fair and would not hit the vulnerable in society that the Minister for Finance purported to protect in the budget, or at least in the budget speech.

Simply stating there is no money and accepting anything that goes as a result is a lazy populist cop out.

gaeilgegrinds

Regarding who cares about S.E.N. student, me! I deal with them everyday and this, 'there is no money,' attitude vexes me. There's money for bonuses for bankers! So there is money, it's just not used correctly!

ateam

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

Regarding who cares about S.E.N. student, me! I deal with them everyday and this, 'there is no money,' attitude vexes me. There's money for bonuses for bankers! So there is money, it's just not used correctly!

Doesn't that money come from the private sector, sort of different?

I don't know, there has to be cuts and people are going to suffer. If we say everyone is going to suffer, presumably those with special educational needs will also have to suffer. That's life.

There are far too many special needs assistants going about now in schools, that is an area that has got out of control in the past few years.