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Heat Pumps - post here.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭Wobs


    Hey RKQ,

    I tried looking up RIAI online but could not find any reference to the independent testing. Do you have a link or is the magazine available in shops?

    Dryan, your heat pump might be running when there is no demand due to the low temperatures, it could have an anti frost setting where if the temperatures get to low it will run to prevent freezing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 492 ✭✭dryan


    Hey Wobs,

    How do i know what setting to change?

    Mine is a thermia HP if you are familiar with the running of it.

    Cheers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭Wobs


    Sorry Dryan,

    I wouldn't be familiar with the Thermia set up. Get on to the Thermia agent. If it is the anti freeze setting Im not sure that you can change them as they are there to protect the heat exchanger from freezing and bursting which you dont want to happen.

    Sorry I cant be of any more help.


  • Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭barongreen


    just bumping this forum as now that the winter is over it might be interesting to hear how people got on with there heat pump's costs over cold winter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭Connacht


    Ok lads,
    I know of a person in a ca. 4,000 sq ft house with only GSHP UFH heating and no back-up rads or OFCH or anything else.
    Elec bills for y/e Feb 2009 - Euro 5,000 - day units 21,000 - night units 19,000.
    Elec bills for y/e Feb 2008 - Euro 4,000 - day units 15,000 - night units 19,000.
    Clearly, there is something VERY seriously wrong here.
    Can anyone say what it is likely to be ? It's a pretty new build (less than 7 years), so it's unlikely to be poor insulation. Even setting the room to 20 C all the time would hardly account for such bills. This sounds like a real problem with the system, no ?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11 2500w


    House: 240 sq m

    Total ESB bill for 4 months (Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb) 1000 euro or very close to that. This figure includes every applicance in the house and standing charges, VAT ie. what I paid ESB.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    RKQ wrote: »
    How can a system that give up to 3kw of heat per 1 kw esb used be less efficient than a 90% boiler?

    Because for every 1Kw of power delivered to you 2.7kw has been consumed in its generation and distribution .

    So a heat pump delivering at COP 3 is just about equal to an efficient boiler

    I could not have put it better than this ....

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59147773&postcount=4

    .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    How cheap are they to run? and are they green since we get out power from fossil fuels?
    What kind of figures are we talking to get one done?

    look at paragraph starting "Secondly ..... "

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=289&page=1#Item_1


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭RKQ


    sinnerboy wrote: »
    So a heat pump delivering at COP 3 is just about equal to an efficient boiler

    I could not have put it better than this ....

    "the BER rating is based on primary energy use and electricity is considered secondary energy and is generated (in Ireland) mainly from primary energy resources such as oil, coal, gas and peat with only a relatively small proportion from renewable resources such as wind."

    Primary energy, secondary energy.... who decides this rubbish?
    Are these "classes" of energy international or an Irish answer to an Irish problem?
    Either way I think its a matter of opinion or the twisting of ideals - personally IMO energy is energy, plain and simple.

    I'm not responcible for the ESB's use of fossil fuels.
    Oil boilers use fossil fuels but no-one cares how much energy is required to drill, extract, purify and transport crude oil to your oil or gas tank.
    Never really thought oil wells were eco places! (not to mention the polution or wars)

    We as a race depend on electricity and its future generation will determine our survival, as a species when fossil fuels run out.

    By the same argument a BER rating on a house with Geothermal should improve in the future once the majority or all electricty generation is provided by hydro, solar, wind or wave power! (primary energy)

    Who will automatically upgrade the old BER ratings on that day?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    From the DEAP manual

    the Dwelling Energy Assessment Procedure (DEAP), which is the Irish official procedure for calculating and assessing the energy performance of dwellings. The procedure takes account of the energy required for space heating, ventilation, water heating and lighting, less savings from energy
    generation technologies. For standardised occupancy, it calculates annual values of delivered energy consumption, primary energy consumption and carbon dioxide emissions, both totals and per square metre of total floor area of the dwelling.


    You are (?) aware of -

    a certain global warming theory that points the finger at CO2 emmisions

    that electricity in Ireland is a very carbon intensive form of energy - it is not clean

    that your heat pump , in DEAP , will gain credit for its COP but lose that credit again in primary energy consumption

    that BER certs are not only about A -B - C energy ratings but CO2 emmision ratings too and that a certain taxation commission is right now looking at amongst other things , introducing carbon taxes here

    that being pleased with your heat pump because you believe it serves YOU well but not caring about how it is fueled puts you in an unflattering light .
    ( light ! - geddit :pac::pac:)

    .


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭BoozyBabe


    Hi Sinnerboy.
    We're planning (at the minute) to put in an Air to water heat pump.
    So, what you're saying above is that even though it 'appears' green, it won't be because the electricity it uses isn't green.
    & because of that, if taxes were to come in, we'd be taxed for this.

    What about the fact that we're planning on getting our electricity from Airtricity.
    Will this have an impact on how 'green' our system appears to be?
    Thanks,
    BB


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭RKQ


    I understand the points above, I just don't agree with the author of DEAP. Primary and secondary is a crazy idea.

    Our uk cousins aren't as quick to dismiss geothermal due to how electricity is generated in their country. (Cheap nuclear would make electricty very positive - by DEAP argument - zero carbon)

    Electricity is the only renewable power we have.
    Once fossil fuels are gone we will continue to use and generate electricity. Our future depends on better and cheaper electricity generation - hydro, solar or wind. Thats why we continue to develop and promote electric cars and hybrid engines.
    Look at the eco Earthships in US or eco village in Wales - they all generate their own electricity.

    As regards tax - we live in a country with lazy minded desparate Ministers that will tax anything - they will alays go for the soft target - Carbon, mobile phone text or even posts on Boards.ie. Silly tax is no endorsement.

    Wind is a fantastic resourse in Ireland yet it is under used. We are ideally suited to wind generation, due to our position in Europe. Yet IMO because of lazy semi-state bodies and slow Government policy we are way behind our potential generation. We are unlikely to meet of Keyoto figures. Whose fault is this?
    (Wind generation was advocated instead of nuclear power at Carnesore in the 70's - yet very few wind farms have been built since)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    DEAP heavily penalises electricity use vs oil or gas .

    It applies these primary factors of 1.1 for gas and oil and 2.7 for electricity posted earlier but it also allocates the following CO2 emmision factors - ( unit Kg/Kw hour )
    Oil 0.272
    Natural Gas 0.203
    Elec. 0.643

    Or put it another way DEAP says that Electricity use emmits 2.3 times more CO2 than oil or 3 times more than Nat . Gas .

    That is the reality of the situation . How are these factors arrived at ? Big question - I don't know . But they ARE the factors .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    BoozyBabe wrote: »
    Hi Sinnerboy.
    We're planning (at the minute) to put in an Air to water heat pump.
    So, what you're saying above is that even though it 'appears' green, it won't be because the electricity it uses isn't green.
    & because of that, if taxes were to come in, we'd be taxed for this.

    What about the fact that we're planning on getting our electricity from Airtricity.
    Will this have an impact on how 'green' our system appears to be?
    Thanks,
    BB


    See my post before this one and download the Domestic Fuel Comparison tool here

    http://www.sei.ie/Publications/Statistics_Publications/Fuel_Cost_Comparison/

    now when using any excell spread sheet , like when driving a car , you must be fully alert and paying attention at all time

    Do an exercise to compare Air to Water Heat Pump ( ATWHP ) vs Kerosene Oil Boiler (KOB)

    NB

    Download Domestic Fuel Cost Comparisons Jan 09 and use those costs

    Change the Degree of Thermal Efficiency for
    ATWHP to 2.0 ( 3 if you were to use a ground source heat pump )
    KOB to .9

    Select "Heat pump night saver electricity rate - average " . Because in truth you will not be able to run in night saver only - ( my opinion )

    For both , set annual fuel cost increase to 5% ( crystal ball stuff - who knows really but I suggest 5 % )

    For investment - enter €10k for ATWHP ( €20k if Geo ) and for KOB enter €4k

    The BIG unknown is what the future holds for the various relative fuel costs


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    BoozyBabe wrote: »
    What about the fact that we're planning on getting our electricity from Airtricity.
    BB

    As of now - DEAP will not differentiate this


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    RKQ wrote: »
    I understand the points above, I just don't agree with the author of DEAP. Primary and secondary is a crazy idea.

    Not trying to confront you for divilment RKQ - you might like to follow this

    http://www.constructireland.ie/vb/showthread.php?t=694


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11 Jloner2


    Hi all,
    I am currently starting a new build house and in the process of looking for a geothermal heating system woth horizontal ground source and under floor heating. The prices I am been quoted here are madness.

    These systems have been used in Germany and Sweden for years.

    Does anyone know of suppliers either in these countries or even the UK that would do a supply only quotation at a more realistic price.....

    cheers

    jim


  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭rathbaner


    sinnerboy wrote: »
    As of now - DEAP will not differentiate this
    Really incredible!! The government're going to use a carbon tax to make non-fossil fuel burners subsidise fossil fuel burners.

    I'll have to switch off the GSHP and start burning coal!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,876 ✭✭✭Borzoi


    sinnerboy wrote: »
    http://www.sei.ie/Publications/Statistics_Publications/Fuel_Cost_Comparison/

    now when using any excell spread sheet , like when driving a car , you must be fully alert and paying attention at all time

    Using the tool, and your numbers sinnerboy I'm coming up with a saving of €45K over 25 years by going heat pump - will you double check


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4 mick2907


    Hi Jloner
    I am currently going through the courts for what me plumber told me would cost me €850 per year for a dimpco LA 11 heat pump. This pump has cost me up to €1900 per year approx to run. If I take into account the €10,000 to buy the pump and the the €2000 per year to run-I was stupid to listen to my plumber. A condensor oil boiler bought in the north will cost about €300 cheaper than down here and is more efficent that any heat pump. I have the ESB bill's to prove what I paided - daylight robbery.
    STAY AWAY FROM THE HEAT PUMP- IT IS Crazy


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  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭rayh


    mick2907 wrote: »
    Hi Jloner
    I am currently going through the courts for what me plumber told me would cost me €850 per year for a dimpco LA 11 heat pump. This pump has cost me up to €1900 per year approx to run. If I take into account the €10,000 to buy the pump and the the €2000 per year to run-I was stupid to listen to my plumber. A condensor oil boiler bought in the north will cost about €300 cheaper than down here and is more efficent that any heat pump. I have the ESB bill's to prove what I paided - daylight robbery.
    STAY AWAY FROM THE HEAT PUMP- IT IS Crazy

    Mick - would be interested if you would PM me on this matter


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 112 ✭✭Lightning McQue


    Mick

    Could you pm because I am planning on installing this heat pump.

    Thanks.

    Lightning


  • Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭Connacht


    There is very clearly a real problem in the GSHP market in Ireland.
    My opinion is that there is a huge lack of technical knowledge among installers / vendors (basically do not know what they are doing). However, these people know full well that there is no knowledge at all out in the market among potential buyers / home owners.
    Therefore, home owners are being "over promised and under delivered".
    Thoise of you out there with systems should ask yourselves one simple question : how much would it cost me to heat this house conventionally : with OFCH or GFCH typically.
    And before anyone says it : yes, I know of and support fully the green agenda. But there are three pillars to sustainability, one of which is 'economic'.
    Mick - the best of luck in the courts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 153 ✭✭rayh


    Connacht wrote: »
    There is very clearly a real problem in the GSHP market in Ireland.
    My opinion is that there is a huge lack of technical knowledge among installers / vendors (basically do not know what they are doing). However, these people know full well that there is no knowledge at all out in the market among potential buyers / home owners.
    Therefore, home owners are being "over promised and under delivered".
    Thoise of you out there with systems should ask yourselves one simple question : how much would it cost me to heat this house conventionally : with OFCH or GFCH typically.
    And before anyone says it : yes, I know of and support fully the green agenda. But there are three pillars to sustainability, one of which is 'economic'.
    Mick - the best of luck in the courts.

    Connaught – the issue of the use of Heat Pump systems in Ireland is much wider and looking at the posts in general to this forum, the issue of “economic” would appear to have a very narrow berth.
    The “economics” of providing heat energy for our homes has 2 parts having firstly decided that you are achieving the minimum requirement:
    1) Capital costs
    2) Running costs

    Yes the system is very technical and complex in the home owners market, which leaves the later vulnerable and we are now seeing the consequences, as it appears to me that the issue of “economic” on behalf of the home owner seems to be confined to the Capital Costs and this supported by a sale on behalf of the vendor


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 TM135


    I am starting to build a new two story house with underfloor heating on both floors. I am considering using geothermal heating system or an oil boiler.What are your views on Geothermal systems. I am also hoping to put in a solid fuel back boiler.

    Can I use the back boiler with a geothermal system? I know I can use the back boiler with an efficent oil burner system.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5 soniag


    Hi there,

    We have an Alpha Innotec heat pump installed for the last 3 years and every summer since it was installed it gives us trouble, but it has been out of service for almost a month now.
    If we switch the heating part off and only use the hot water it works fine.
    We are getting the same error code 716, a high pressure error every time.
    The T*$$er that installed it came up to us once, had a quick look, said "he couldn't see anything wrong with it, (as I had rebooted the system)" and left again.
    We spoke to another installer in the area but he doesn't deal with the Alpha Innotec model but is trying to help us.
    We have adjusted the heating curve down to improve the Delta T but the system bombed again last night.
    If anyone has any ideas I'd appreciate them. We have a 3500sq ft house with underfloor downstairs and rads upstairs. as i said, in the winter the system works great except for the high ESB bills, but we are planning on getting a heat loss survey done in the autumn.
    Any help or suggestions gratefully accepted.

    Sonia in Sligo:(




  • Have you had any luck contacting the manufacturers? they should at least be able to decode the error code for you/give advice on where the high pressure is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy




  • Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭al2009


    Soniag

    it sounds like the hot water to the house is not taking enough heat from the fridge circuit, heat pumps trip on high pressure when the heat absorbed (from the ground) is greater than the heat rejected(to the hot water circuit), typically this can be anything from a blocked strainer to an oversized heat pump(in this case only needing to heat the cylinder water,not the underfloor circuit)

    if the pump has two compressors switch one off and see if the problem goes, if not it may be worth your while getting an unbiased diagnosis, i can recommend a good refrigeration company in Monaghan that specialise in heat pumps, no connection to myself.

    pm me if you need any further assistance.

    al


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭gally74


    soniag,

    did they connect a large buffer tank to the system, 300 -400 liters, n.b. not your hot water tank?

    i looked at heat pums and am glad i stayed away, i am infavour of renewables, but i do not consider heat pumps a renewable as you have to use electricity to run it, given the costs labour etc.


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