A YES vote for Lisbon is a YES vote for ushering in the New World Order.

K-9 · 12-03-2009 05:19PM

the_barfly1 wrote: »

Under our special exemption in B na H, we do not have to join in a European Defence Force. However, under the solidarity clause, we would be compelled to provide military assistance to any other EU country that may be invaded by another country or terrorist organisation, or any country who believes such an invasion is imminent.

Who decides what the assistance is?

the_barfly1 wrote:

Its power to transfer the ECHR into law is also as dumbfounding. Read it, they promise that nobody shall be condemned to death, then take it away by providing get out clauses for it to be implemented. The thing is has more holes in it than bad cheese.

Probably because some countries still have the death penalty? No? They have to respect the sovereignty of each country?

12-03-2009 05:21PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If you don't understand it simply vote no.

Yea why bother trying to educate yourself about it when you can just make stuff up about and listen to scaremongering propaganda.

Way to spread the truth.

U4IK ST8 · 12-03-2009 05:22PM

King Mob wrote: »

Yea because Europe has been such a hot bed for large scale conflict these last few years.
And how exactly does a terrorist organisation invade a country?

He gave you the answer but your still not happy? You are the wrong one, it's clear, so now you have this new found info what are your views on the Lisbon Treaty?

I knew I read somewhere that "we would be compelled to provide military assistance to any other EU country that may be invaded by another country or terrorist organisation, or any country who believes such an invasion is imminent."

It doesn't matter "how", if it happens we(Ireland) would be oblidged to contribute troops to the cause. Which nulls our constitution and our neutrality...

K-9 · 12-03-2009 05:25PM

U4IK ST8 wrote: »

I knew I read somewhere that "we would be compelled to provide military assistance to any other EU country that may be invaded by another country or terrorist organisation, or any country who believes such an invasion is imminent."

It doesn't matter "how", if it happens we(Ireland) would be oblidged to contribute troops to the cause. Which nulls our constitution and our neutrality...

Reconcile those 2 paragraphs.

How does assistance mean troops?

oscarBravo · 12-03-2009 05:27PM

the_barfly1 wrote: »

...under the solidarity clause, we would be compelled to provide military assistance to any other EU country that may be invaded by another country or terrorist organisation, or any country who believes such an invasion is imminent.

Can you reference the specific provision in the Lisbon treaty that compels us to provide military assistance, specifically?

Its power to transfer the ECHR into law is also as dumbfounding. Read it, they promise that nobody shall be condemned to death, then take it away by providing get out clauses for it to be implemented.

Nope. Read the thread on the EU forum. The EU is totally opposed to the death penalty, and only provides exemptions as loopholes for specific member states that require them. The canard that Lisbon will allow the introduction of the death penalty is one of the more glaringly silly assertions by Euroskeptics.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If you don't understand it simply vote no.

If you don't understand it, how can you understand the consequences of voting against it?

Tell me, why are you so eager to accept anything you're told by Euroskeptics, but unwilling to accept anything from pro-Europeans?

the_barfly1 · 12-03-2009 05:28PM

K-9 wrote: »

Reconcile those 2 paragraphs.

How does assistance mean troops?

Apologies for not stating Military assistance. Look up Treaty of Lisbon, Solidarity Clause.

U4IK ST8 · 12-03-2009 05:28PM

K-9 wrote: »

Reconcile those 2 paragraphs.

How does assistance mean troops?

Please read more carefully next time.

"military assistance"

12-03-2009 05:30PM

U4IK ST8 wrote: »

He gave you the answer but your still not happy? You are the wrong one, it's clear, so now you have this new found info what are your views on the Lisbon Treaty?

I knew I read somewhere that "we would be compelled to provide military assistance to any other EU country that may be invaded by another country or terrorist organisation, or any country who believes such an invasion is imminent."

It doesn't matter "how", if it happens we(Ireland) would be oblidged to contribute troops to the cause. Which nulls our constitution and our neutrality...

But hang on....
The European Council agreed that the necessary legal guarantees would be given that the Treaty of Lisbon did not prejudice the security and defence policy of any member state, including Ireland's traditional policy of neutrality.

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/ueDocs/cms_Data/docs/pressData/en/ec/104692.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland_Bill,_2008#Second_referendum

So the Lisbon treaty neither nulls our neutrality and even if it did somehow that wouldn't null our constitution.

Looks like more scaremongering on your part.

K-9 · 12-03-2009 05:30PM

U4IK ST8 wrote: »

Please read more carefully next time.

"military assistance"

Get a dictionary.

U4IK ST8 · 12-03-2009 05:31PM

the_barfly1 wrote: »

Good god. I can't believe people are still arguing about the lisbon treaty.
Anyway, I studied the whole deal in great detail last year, so onto the issue of neutrality.

Under our special exemption in B na H, we do not have to join in a European Defence Force. However, under the solidarity clause, we would be compelled to provide military assistance to any other EU country that may be invaded by another country or terrorist organisation, or any country who believes such an invasion is imminent. I'm not going to go into this whole thing now, but that's one of the greatest faults in the text, it makes you believe that something is true, then it provides a workaround further on in the treaty. Its not watertight as to what we, the Irish people need. And therefore it isn't good enough.

Its power to transfer the ECHR into law is also as dumbfounding. Read it, they promise that nobody shall be condemned to death, then take it away by providing get out clauses for it to be implemented. The thing is has more holes in it than bad cheese.

the_barfly1 wrote: »

Apologies for not stating Military assistance. Look up Treaty of Lisbon, Solidarity Clause.

Don't apologize, he just didn't read it correctly.

the_barfly1 · 12-03-2009 05:32PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

The EU is totally opposed to the death penalty, and only provides exemptions as loopholes for specific member states that require them.

If that were the case it would be a specific country by country exemption clause, like ours when it comes to joining a common defence.

My problem with this is that it leaves everything wide open, while at the same time the Lisbon treaty actually creates a legal identity for the EU, and not just a common trading bloc. I'm going to leave ye to argue the points, because I could sit here all day dispelling arguments but im a bit pee'd off at it after the amount of time I spent at it last year.

Take care

6th · 12-03-2009 05:33PM

K-9 wrote: »

Get a dictionary.

Get some manners.

K-9 · 12-03-2009 05:35PM

U4IK ST8 wrote: »

Don't apologize, he just didn't read it correctly.

So military assistance means troops, nothing else?

U4IK ST8 · 12-03-2009 05:37PM

K-9 wrote: »

So assistance means troops?

No, military assistance does. Obviously...

oscarBravo · 12-03-2009 05:38PM

U4IK ST8 wrote: »

I knew I read somewhere that "we would be compelled to provide military assistance to any other EU country that may be invaded by another country or terrorist organisation, or any country who believes such an invasion is imminent."

If you read it anywhere other than in the Lisbon Treaty, then it's not authoritative.

Tell you what, I'll save you the trouble:

Lisbon Treaty wrote:

If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other
Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in
their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not
prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member
States.

The phrase "military assistance" is conspicuously absent.

12-03-2009 05:40PM

U4IK ST8 wrote: »

No, military assistance does. Obviously...

If only there was some kind of guarantee that our neutrality wouldn't be effected......
Oh wait.

K-9 · 12-03-2009 05:40PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

If you read it anywhere other than in the Lisbon Treaty, then it's not authoritative.

Tell you what, I'll save you the trouble: The phrase "military assistance" is conspicuously absent.

I think the "This shall not
prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member
States." part is extremely important for Ireland.

K-9 · 12-03-2009 05:48PM

Military assistance could mean re fuelling planes at Shannon.

oscarBravo · 12-03-2009 05:52PM

the_barfly1 wrote: »

If that were the case it would be a specific country by country exemption clause, like ours when it comes to joining a common defence.

Specific exemptions aren't necessary. The death penalty is explicitly prohibited, and then there's some relaxation on that prohibition for those states that feel the need to use it under certain circumstances.

We have abolished the death penalty, through a constitutional amendment, which means that there is no way that it can be re-introduced, except through a constitutional amendment.

oscarBravo · 12-03-2009 05:53PM

K-9 wrote: »

Military assistance could mean re fuelling planes at Shannon.

Re-read my earlier post. "Military assistance" is a straw man; it's not mentioned in the Treaty.

U4IK ST8 · 12-03-2009 05:54PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

If you read it anywhere other than in the Lisbon Treaty, then it's not authoritative.

Tell you what, I'll save you the trouble:

Lison Treaty wrote:

If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other
Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in
their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not
prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member
States.

The phrase "military assistance" is conspicuously absent.

I don't know where you got that quote from but it's not the Lisbon Treaty... Who's pulling wool over who's eyes now?

Article 188 R from the Lisbon Treaty wrote:

SOLIDARITY CLAUSE

176) The following new Title VII and new Article 188 R shall be inserted:

‘TITLE VII
SOLIDARITY CLAUSE

Article 188 R

1. The Union and its Member States shall act jointly in a spirit of solidarity if a Member State is the object of a terrorist attack or the victim of a natural or man-made disaster. The Union shall mobilise all the instruments at its disposal, including the military resources made available by the Member States, to:

(a) — prevent the terrorist threat in the territory of the Member States; - This would be hard without using military assistance

— protect democratic institutions and the civilian population from any terrorist attack;- so would this

— assist a Member State in its territory, at the request of its political authorities, in the event of a terrorist attack;- and this

(b) assist a Member State in its territory, at the request of its political authorities, in the event of a natural or man-made disaster.

Please notice some sections I highlighted in bold. Refueling planes at Shannon would not qualify as military assistance "in the territory" of the Member State, would it?

12-03-2009 05:55PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Specific exemptions aren't necessary. The death penalty is explicitly prohibited, and then there's some relaxation on that prohibition for those states that feel the need to use it under certain circumstances.

We have abolished the death penalty, through a constitutional amendment, which means that there is no way that it can be re-introduced, except through a constitutional amendment.

And as far as I know that would require a referendum wouldn't it?

Run_to_da_hills · 12-03-2009 05:58PM

King Mob wrote: »

And as far as I know that would require a referendum wouldn't it?

What referendum, if Lisbon gets through you can say good bye to the Irish Constitution and all future referendums.

K-9 · 12-03-2009 05:58PM

U4IK ST8 wrote: »

I don't know where you got that quote from but it's not the Lisbon Treaty... Who's pulling wool over who's eyes now?

Please notice some sections I highlighted in bold. Refueling planes at Shannon would not qualify as military assistance "in the territory" of the Member State, would it?

All the above has to be in accordance with our defence policy. We are Neutral.

U4IK ST8 · 12-03-2009 06:00PM

K-9 wrote: »

All the above has to be in accordance with our defence policy. We are Neutral.

And where does it state "All the above has to be in accordance with our defence policy." I didn't read that anywhwere in this Solidarity Clause?

K-9 · 12-03-2009 06:01PM

U4IK ST8 wrote: »

And where does it state "All the above has to be in accordance with our defence policy." I didn't read that anywhwere in this Solidarity Clause?

Indeed. It wouldn't be in that clause.

12-03-2009 06:03PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

What referendum, if Lisbon gets through you can say good bye to the Irish Constitution and all future referendums.

You're really not getting the scaremongering thing at all are you?

Where exactly in the treaty does that come in?

oscarBravo · 12-03-2009 06:04PM

U4IK ST8 wrote: »

I don't know where you got that quote from but it's not the Lisbon Treaty...

It's not? What does article 49 of your copy of the Lisbon Treaty say?

King Mob wrote: »

And as far as I know that would require a referendum wouldn't it?

Absolutely.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

What referendum, if Lisbon gets through you can say good bye to the Irish Constitution and all future referendums.

:rolleyes:

12-03-2009 06:05PM

U4IK ST8 wrote: »

And where does it state "All the above has to be in accordance with our defence policy." I didn't read that anywhwere in this Solidarity Clause?

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/ueDocs/cms_Data/docs/pressData/en/ec/104692.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland_Bill,_2008#Second_referendum

U4IK ST8 · 12-03-2009 06:06PM

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed.

Are you just tryig to stir the **** or what?

Indeed what? Indeed it doesn't say that in the Solidarity Clause?

A YES vote for Lisbon is a YES vote for ushering in the New World Order.

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