Why The Church Can Go and Fup Off

brianthebard · 06-03-2009 12:51PM

mooch into power via popular open and democratic election? I'm going to assume you are trying to take the piss and don't know anything about liberation theology or what the church has been involved in for the benefit of the poor in South America for a number of decades now.

Pamela111 · 06-03-2009 12:53PM

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7926694.stm

I'm not religous but crap like that would really put me off the idea of catholicism.

What about you lot boardsies, any other actions by the church annoy the bejaysus out of you?

Abortion is a grave sin. Anyone who helps someone commit a grave sin from within the church is in trouble. Rape is also a grave sin but the killing of a human life in the womb is also terrible, regardless of the circumstances.

So abortion is the cure for rape? That is what you are saying?

This agenda against the church should really stop.

Abortion can cause of all types of permanent damage:
http://www.epigee.org/pregnancy/psychological.html

See the development of a baby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2l1-kvKomg

God bless everyone

Wagon · 06-03-2009 12:54PM

Anders Dirty Paint wrote: »

It will be the ruin of the world...

It already is. How many wars have been started over religous reasons? Countless numbers, big and small, from all over the world. God could be real and there could be a higher power somewhere in the universe but it sure as **** isn't at mass on a Sunday with some chap in a dress listing off the things that make you go to hell.

Wagon · 06-03-2009 12:57PM

Pamela111 wrote: »

Abortion is a grave sin. Anyone who helps someone commit a grave sin from within the church is in trouble. Rape is also a grave sin but the killing of a human life in the womb is also terrible, regardless of the circumstances.

I sincerly hope you're joking. I really do.

Abortion can cause of all types of permanent damage:
http://www.epigee.org/pregnancy/psychological.html

And a 9 year old getting abused by her own father doesn't? You're telling me that getting rid of a few cells in your womb is worse than having half her childhood ruined and unknown mental trauma all her life? :mad:

God bless everyone

Piss off. You can believe whatever you want but some of us like to live in the real world and actually put the welfare of a child before crackpot religious rules.

wes · 06-03-2009 12:59PM

Anders Dirty Paint wrote: »

There are also times in history, where religion, directly caused wars. The crusades is just one example. Kill them infidels in the name of God... Not a good thing really.

Not completely. It was also about controlling trade routes to the East as well. So it also involved the other major reasons for War, money and resources and what not. The religous reasons were used to get the poor etc of Europe (they were promised they would be saved if they went) to go to war.

Most wars are started for multiple complicated reasons. The crusades are not different. There are often multiple reasons, that overlap.

Smart Bug · 06-03-2009 01:01PM

Wagon wrote: »

It already is. How many wars have been started over religous reasons? Countless numbers, big and small, from all over the world. God could be real and there could be a higher power somewhere in the universe but it sure as **** isn't at mass on a Sunday with some chap in a dress listing off the things that make you go to hell.

This post moved me to sing:

"ANd yeah, yeah, God is great
Yeah, yeah, god is good, yeah yeah yeah yeah
But what if God was one of us,
Just a slob like one of us,
Just a stranger on a bus
Trying to make his way home"

And if he was just one of us, I'd kick him square in the nuts.

Pamela111 · 06-03-2009 01:01PM

Insurgent wrote: »

Mass.

The Holy Mass is the greatest miracle on earth. Any criticism is blasphemous.

There are 1000s of Eucharistic miracles, see for example:
http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping56.htm
"Eucharistic miracle happened during the Mass celebrated by the Bishop Claudio Gatti in the thaumaturgical place
On the 11th of June 2000, feast of Pentecost, while I was celebrating the Holy Mass in the church "Mother of the Eucharist", a great Eucharistic miracle happened. As soon as I finished to say the wording of the consecration of the bread, blood began to come out from my host. Time stopped for me. I was bending over the host that I was holding tightly in my hands and I was gazing at the divine blood that was spreading on a great part of its surface."

"If we but paused for a moment to consider attentively what takes place in this Sacrament, I am sure that the thought of Christ's love for us would transform the coldness of our hearts into a fire of love and gratitude."

- St. Angela of Foligno

"Christ held Himself in His hands when He gave His Body to His disciples saying: 'This is My Body.' No one partakes of this Flesh before he has adored it."

- St. Augustine

"Recognize in this bread what hung on the cross, and in this chalice what flowed from His side... whatever was in many and varied ways announced beforehand in the sacrifices of the Old Testament pertains to this one sacrifice which is revealed in the New Testament."

- from the writings of St. Augustine, Sermon 3, 2; circa A.D. 410 {original translation}

"O Lord, we cannot go to the pool of Siloe to which you sent the blind man. But we have the chalice of Your Precious Blood, filled with life and light. The purer we are, the more we receive."

- St. Ephraem

Galvasean · 06-03-2009 01:04PM

brianthebard wrote: »

mooch into power via popular open and democratic election?

Yeah, just because someone is democratically elected doesn't mean he's a good guy. Take Hitler for example. He was elected because he was able to give the people what they wanted/needed, however he only did so to further his own agendas. (I'm not saying the two scenarios are exactly the same, just that democratic elections don't always make the right choice)

brianthebard · 06-03-2009 01:05PM

godwin gal?

Galvasean · 06-03-2009 01:06PM

Pamela111 wrote: »

The Holy Mass is the greatest miracle on earth. Any criticism is blasphemous.

Thank god we live in a secular society* where blasphemy is no longer punishable by death.

*excuse my irony

Pamela111 · 06-03-2009 01:06PM

Wagon wrote: »

And a 9 year old getting abused by her own father doesn't? You're telling me that getting rid of a few cells in your womb is worse than having half her childhood ruined and unknown mental trauma all her life? :mad:

There is the option of adoption you know.

A 9 year getting abused is one grave sin and abortion is the 2nd grave sin.

The mental trauma caused by abortion could be greater than the first trauma for many girls.

If you read Fr. Amoraths book on excorcisms, in one case the girl who had an abortion became possessed by Satan.

A period of excorcisms had to be performed.

Referring to a baby in the womb as a "few cells". What kind of a person are you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2l1-kvKomg

Dudess · 06-03-2009 01:06PM

Pamela111 wrote: »

Rape is also a grave sin but the killing of a human life in the womb is also terrible, regardless of the circumstances.

Translation: Rape is also a grave sin but the killing of a human life in the womb is worse. And that's your opinion. I'm of the opinion that rape is FAR worse than a really early termination of a bunch of cells.

So abortion is the cure for rape? That is what you are saying?

Nope. That's not even a logical conclusion to come to.

This agenda against the church should really stop.

Why? If there were ever an organisation ripe for criticism, it's the catholic church.

Mal-Adjusted · 06-03-2009 01:08PM

bleg wrote: »

i hate when the clergy take your place in the picnic area

could you explai that one?

kraggy · 06-03-2009 01:10PM

Dudess wrote: »

I don't really think you're comparing like with like, Kraggy. If you don't study for your exams you'll fail them. If you don't do a marriage course you'll still manage to get married successfully.

But perhaps not in the eyes of God according to the church.

All I'm saying is that if you want a CATHOLIC MARRIAGE in a Catholic Church, you should know the Religion. It would be hypocritical not to.

Why get married in a church if you're not interested in the beliefs and structures of that church? Are you doing it because your neighbours got married in one or your cousins did it and to get married in a Registry Office wouldn't be as romantic?

It stinks of hypocrisy and it's using the church if you ask me.

I'm NOT religious AT ALL. If I get married it would most definitely not be in a church. But if someone wants to get married in a church, I don't see what their complaint is when asked to do the marriage course. If you don't like it or don't believe in it, get married somewhere else.

Galvasean · 06-03-2009 01:11PM

Pamela111 wrote: »

There is the option of adoption you know.

A 9 year getting abused is one grave sin and abortion is the 2nd grave sin.

Problem: In the specific case of the OP, the pregnant girl in question (not to mention her baby) would have certainly died in labour. So if teh doctors chose not to take action we would have two deaths instead of an abortion where we have one death.
Woulds it not be a terible sin for the doctors in question to knowingly let an extra innocent die?

Pamela111 wrote: »

If you read Fr. Amoraths book on excorcisms, in one case the girl who had an abortion became possessed by Satan.

:pac:

Pamela111 · 06-03-2009 01:12PM

I was actually speaking to someone who was adopted recently.

He cannot understand abortion and how any parent, no matter what the circumstances, could do such a thing.

He had a good life as an adopted child and he is very thankful to his mother for going ahead with the pregnancy and then handing him over to adoption.

Nice to see.

Religeon aside, abortion is so cold. All Christian religeons would denounce this, not only Catholics.

The campaign to make abortions part of society is well and truly on:
http://www.christianpost.com/Business/www/2008/07/youtube-restores-video-exposing-pro-abortion-video-project-11/index.html

kraggy · 06-03-2009 01:13PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Let's just say I wouldn't be comfortable spending my time sitting exams for a degree in history, for example, from a university whose lecturers had taken a life-long vow to avoid the subject of history...

Then don't get married in a church. If you have a problem with the religion, then why get married in one that religions churches?! It's quite simple! See my post #76.

Smart Bug · 06-03-2009 01:13PM

Uncle Arthur wrote: »

stalin and hitler killed millions of people, the 2 of them both godless people. religion cannot be blamed outright for millions of deaths, as a previous poster said - people should be. typical human attitude looking for something/someone else to blame really. i feel the life of the mother should be priority in this case as i cant see the logic in losing 3 lives (mother and 2 children) when 2 lives could be spared to save the mother. personally abortion is usually a black and white situation - wrong but here i feel it was the right way to go.

Hitler was actually a devout Roman Catholic. I'll grant you the Stalin example, he was a godless heathen. Fair f*cks to him.

Smart Bug · 06-03-2009 01:19PM

Pamela111 wrote: »

There is the option of adoption you know. A 9 year getting abused is one grave sin and abortion is the 2nd grave sin. The mental trauma caused by abortion could be greater than the first trauma for many girls.

The girl was raped. At 9 years of age. She most probably have died if she carried the babies to term.

Pamela111 wrote: »

If you read Fr. Amoraths book on excorcisms, in one case the girl who had an abortion became possessed by Satan. A period of excorcisms had to be performed.

Really, you believe this crap?

Pamela111 wrote: »

Referring to a baby in the womb as a "few cells". What kind of a person are you?

Putting the lifes of two unborn bast*rdised products of a horrendous act of violence before the life of a 9 year old innocent, what kind of person are you?

Dudess · 06-03-2009 01:20PM

Pamela111 wrote: »

There is the option of adoption you know.

Oh grand. Leave the young raped girl go through the trauma of nine months being pregnant with her rapist's child, then the birth - because there's adoption. Seriously... common sense?

The mental trauma caused by abortion could be greater than the first trauma for many girls.

Could be yes, but not worth putting her through the entire pregnancy and subsequent birth, and then the mixed emotions of seeing her rapist's baby - possibly the guilt for not loving him/her... then the aftermath: all the hormones all over the place, the mixed emotions of giving up her baby for adoption, her breasts lactating. It's not a case of just handing over the baby and that's it. Can't believe you could be so simplistic.

If you read Fr. Amoraths book on excorcisms, in one case the girl who had an abortion became possessed by Satan.

Oh dear...

Referring to a baby in the womb as a "few cells". What kind of a person are you?

Because it's not a baby, it's... a "few cells".

Pointless posting emotive images of a baby's development in the womb in a bid to make people feel guilty - an extremely early termination (which would certainly be the most desirable scenario in the case of rape) happens long before a foetus develops anyway.

brianthebard · 06-03-2009 01:20PM

Galvasean wrote: »

Yeah, just because someone is democratically elected doesn't mean he's a good guy. Take Hitler for example. He was elected because he was able to give the people what they wanted/needed, however he only did so to further his own agendas. (I'm not saying the two scenarios are exactly the same, just that democratic elections don't always make the right choice)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/19/1

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/15/4

you're right, what scum this guy is, trying to help the poor, ousting a party that has been in power for 60 years, asked to leave the church because his views go too much towards liberation theology. Damn, what are people in South America thinking, making up their own mind about religion and the church in their continent when they could listen to people here? The fools!

Pamela111 · 06-03-2009 01:25PM

Well I am a recent conversion to the Ctaholic Life.

I was born, baptized and brought up a Catholic but fell into sin.

I fell into the trap of following others in society and what I read, what people said about the church etc.

But now I find how great the catholic church is. The amount of great people involved, lay people and priests and the challenges they face.

The sacrements of Holy Confession, Holy Mass and Marriage etc are very important. I have obediance to what God asks through is His church including all morals and ethics.

A good free Irish newspaper is Alive:
http://www.alive.ie/archives.php

When a priest does something wrong we hear about it for years but we hear nothing about the 10000s of miracles happening and the calls to conversion.

Even a miracle witnessed by 100,000 people and predicted by small children could not convinve some.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Miracle_of_Fatima

Smart Bug · 06-03-2009 01:25PM

brianthebard wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/19/1

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/15/4

you're right, what scum this guy is, trying to help the poor, ousting a party that has been in power for 60 years, asked to leave the church because his views go too much towards liberation theology. Damn, what are people in South America thinking, making up their own mind about religion and the church in their continent when they could listen to people here? The fools!

I don't know what point you're trying to prove. The one word that struck me in these articles is 'former', as in he is a former bishop, having received no support from the Corporate Catholic Church due to his liberal views. He is undoubtedly a good man, the fact of which has put him at odds with the religion he still believes in.

seamus · 06-03-2009 01:27PM

Pamela111 wrote: »

If you read Fr. Amoraths book on excorcisms, in one case the girl who had an abortion became possessed by Satan.

A period of excorcisms had to be performed.

And if you read Billy Bob McTurkle's scratchings on a post beside his home in Nashville Tennessee, you'll see that his sister became a famous country and western singer after she had an abortion.

A period of gigs had to be performed.

What's your point?

Pamela111 · 06-03-2009 01:29PM

Pamela111 wrote: »

Well I am a recent conversion to the Ctaholic Life.

I was born, baptized and brought up a Catholic but fell into sin.

I fell into the trap of following others in society and what I read, what people said about the church etc.

But now I find how great the catholic church is. The amount of great people involved, lay people and priests and the challenges they face.

The sacrements of Holy Confession, Holy Mass and Marriage etc are very important. I have obediance to what God asks through is His church including all morals and ethics.

A good free Irish newspaper is Alive:
http://www.alive.ie/archives.php

When a priest does something wrong we hear about it for years but we hear nothing about the 10000s of miracles happening and the calls to conversion.

Even a miracle witnessed by 100,000 people and predicted by small children could not convinve some.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Miracle_of_Fatima

Repent and beleive. Lets change our lives and beleive the great promise by God.

From Wiki:

The Miracle of the Sun is an alleged miraculous event witnessed by as many as 100,000 people on 13 October 1917 in the Cova da Iria fields near Fátima, Portugal. Those in attendance had assembled to observe what the Portuguese secular newspapers had been ridiculing for months as the absurd claim of three shepherd children that a miracle was going to occur at high-noon in the Cova da Iria on October 13, 1917. [1]

According to many witness statements, after a downfall of rain, the dark clouds broke and the sun appeared as an opaque, spinning disk in the sky.[2] It was said to be significantly less bright than normal, and cast multicolored lights across the landscape, the shadows on the landscape, the people, and the surrounding clouds.[2] The sun was then reported to have careened towards the earth in a zigzag pattern,[2] frightening some of those present who thought it meant the end of the world.[3] Some witnesses reported that their previously wet clothes became "suddenly and completely dry."[4]

Estimates of the number of witnesses range from 30,000-40,000 by Avelino de Almeida, writing for the Portuguese newspaper O Século,[5] to 100,000, estimated by Dr. Joseph Garrett, professor of natural sciences at the University of Coimbra,[6] both of whom were present that day.[7]

The miracle was attributed by believers to Our Lady of Fátima, an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary to three young shepherd children in 1917, as having been predicted by the three children on 13 July,[8] 19 August,[9] and 13 September [10] 1917. The children reported that the Lady had promised them that she would on 13 October reveal her identity to them[11] and provide a miracle "so that all may believe."[12]

According to these reports, the miracle of the sun lasted approximately ten minutes.[13] The three children also reported seeing a panorama of visions, including those of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of Saint Joseph [14] blessing the people.

brianthebard · 06-03-2009 01:30PM

Smart Bug wrote: »

I don't know what point you're trying to prove. The one word that struck me in these articles is 'former', as in he is a former bishop, having received no support from the Corporate Catholic Church due to his liberal views. He is undoubtedly a good man, the fact of which has put him at odds with the religion he still believes in.

It doesn't put him at odds with his religion, just with the pope. If you don't see a difference then that's your loss.

Galvasean · 06-03-2009 01:32PM

brianthebard wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/19/1

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/15/4

you're right, what scum this guy is, trying to help the poor, ousting a party that has been in power for 60 years, asked to leave the church because his views go too much towards liberation theology. Damn, what are people in South America thinking, making up their own mind about religion and the church in their continent when they could listen to people here? The fools!

According to those links you sent me Lugo is an ex bishop. After looking up some info on him (it's only Wikipedia so correct me where I'm wrong) apaprently he was suspended by the Holy See for becoming a presidential candidate. That would mean he was running as Lugo, not a reprtesentive of the church no?
However in 2008 the Vatican decided they wanted him... Hmmmm, call me cynical but sounds like they didn't like his left wing views, but were all too happy to hop on the gravy train when he got into power.

Pamela111 · 06-03-2009 01:34PM

brianthebard wrote: »

It doesn't put him at odds with his religion, just with the pope. If you don't see a difference then that's your loss.

The Pope is holy man. I am in my 20s and agree with his views and the teachings of the Catholic Church despite my sinful past and even my continual falls and indifferences.

I have come to discover something great, the truth.

I just wish more young people could see what I see.

Mal-Adjusted · 06-03-2009 01:36PM

Pamela, could you please explain clearly why you don't agree with abortion in this particular case?

Smart Bug · 06-03-2009 01:44PM

brianthebard wrote: »

It doesn't put him at odds with his religion, just with the pope. If you don't see a difference then that's your loss.

The pope, according to his religion, is the infallible representative of God on earth. Lugo acted according to the tenents of his religious beliefs, thus earning a suspension & dismissal from his religious post. You are suggesting that his religion (Catholic) is seperate from his pope (also Catholic)? I can only agree that his intentions are good and proper, that they somewhat coincide with some of the tenents of the Catholic religion is coincedental. He is a good man, some might say a great man. His religion has nothing to do with that. The pope's lack of support for him has everything to do with his religion.

Galvasean wrote: »

According to those links you sent me Lugo is an ex bishop. After looking up some info on him (it's only Wikipedia so correct me where I'm wrong) apaprently he was suspended by the Holy See for becoming a presidential candidate. That would mean he was running as Lugo, not a reprtesentive of the church no?
However in 2008 the Vatican decided they wanted him... Hmmmm, call me cynical but sounds like they didn't like his left wing views, but were all too happy to hop on the gravy train when he got into power.

Also, what this guy said. I don't have any thanks left, otherwise you'd be gettin some!

Why The Church Can Go and Fup Off

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