Unwanted attention-girls fault?

#2 24-02-2009 03:31PM

Dragan

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I would blend the two common schools of thought on this. If you dress in a manner which you feel makes you more attractive then you need to accept there will be some more interest from the opposite sex. When you are out and about in pubs and clubs etc it is simply going to happen.

However, once you politely decline the interest, for whatever the reasons, that should be it. There is nothing more pathetic to me than watching the type of guy who will hound a chick on a night out. It's funny for a while, but then it gets creepy and the last stage is scary.

Having plenty of years on the doors under my belt i witnessed plenty of creepy guys doing plenty of creepy things, so that's not just from a punter perspective either. There have also been times where i simply had to have a quiet chat with the guy in question, on the behalf of female friends. It was always met with the same "Or, and your the boyfriend is it?" to which i would reply "Nope, i am just a concerned friend of a female that you keep ****ing bothering on her night out. So **** off".

It really does worry me, the retarded social graces of blokes in pubs and clubs.

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#3 24-02-2009 03:31PM

Nevyn

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No, it's lack of manners and respect for her as a person by the men doing it.

I have a friend who is a pretty lass and she gets pestered on nights out,
she's not so stunning she intiminates men but is cute, pretty and dimples and curls
and curves and it is unreal the liberties that men will take, even when told no
and often they are physical ones and it has nothing to do with her being immodestly attired.

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#4 24-02-2009 03:39PM

Wibbs

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I'd be with Dragan on this one.

Dragan wrote:

I would blend the two common schools of thought on this. If you dress in a manner which you feel makes you more attractive then you need to accept there will be some more interest from the opposite sex. When you are out and about in pubs and clubs etc it is simply going to happen.

However, once you politely decline the interest, for whatever the reasons, that should be it. There is nothing more pathetic to me than watching the type of guy who will hound a chick on a night out. It's funny for a while, but then it gets creepy and the last stage is scary.

Pathetic too, when the woman has turned them down and they start getting lippy or even agressive with her because of that.

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#5 24-02-2009 03:47PM

Nevyn

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Wibbs wrote: »

I'd be with Dragan on this one.

Pathetic too, when the woman has turned them down and they start getting lippy or even agressive with her because of that.

Saw that at the hollow'een beers, some muppet hitting on on the larger ladies
and when they refused said them " well I wouldn't fcuk you anyway cos your a fat cow" he pestered and abused at least 4 women that way until he found one that he decided to just dog until she came to me about him and he was told to leave.

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#6 24-02-2009 03:48PM

Kya1976

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or if you turn a bloke down, you obviously have to be gay:rolleyes:

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#7 24-02-2009 03:48PM

Dragan

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Wibbs wrote: »

I'd be with Dragan on this one.

Pathetic too, when the woman has turned them down and they start getting lippy or even agressive with her because of that.

Yeah, that is one of the odder reactions and i would put it to ANY woman that if you turn down a guys advances and he goes off on one then you have all the justification you need right there.

I have been turned down by plenty of women...I think most people have been turned down many times over the course of their life. You can't get every interaction right, and you can't control everything. Some people will be married, others stressed, some upset, some happy about things you will never be involved in etc etc etc. Normally, people have far more reason to say no to someones advances than to say yes. It's always been met with a smile and wink from me and i go away happy that at the very least i got to pay an interesting and attractive girl a compliment.

I really don't see what the issue is, there is far, far more to people that a simple interaction in a pub lets on. It's not a completely judgement of them as a person or anything. I just think it's blokes who have too much time for themselves and are victims of there own self image and too many emotional drivers. I mean, it goes from wanting to get with a girl to calling her a slag/bitch/ugly etc in a matter of seconds.

The lack of logic in the argument tells the tale i think.

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#8 24-02-2009 03:51PM

Mcfast

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in the thread i was refering to a girl had said she didnt like various holiday destinations because she got so hassled by men in them to the point where guys blocked her exit from a store and men on the street were following them requesting sexual favours. another poster responded by saying its obvious from your post that you need to tone down the look

i was more than a bit shocked by that i thought it was a horrible response.

Dragan, wibbs what would you define as getting dressed up enough to ask for it?

I would think there are places worse than ireland for it where women are seen as second class citizens or sex objects and probably those men would carry on the same here which i think would end up being nothing to do with how the woman presents herself. Having said that i think a girl should be able to walk down a street without getting hassled and it is pathetic when a guy has been told no and goes on the desperado hunt.

I have a friend who is plain but pretty with long blond hair, she gets a horrible amount of attention bordering on molestation and not just in pubs or clubs. if i were her i wouldnt leave the house!

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#9 24-02-2009 03:59PM

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One time I was out with a few friends of mine who are couples. My OH was arriving along later so I was the only one there who did not have their partner with them. I got hassled by this guy who was least in his 40s who just wouldn't leave him alone. I reckon he probably saw our group and thought 'the only single girl, bit chubby, she'll be easy' and he got very aggressive when I eventually lost it and told him to eff off. He was acting like he was doing me a favour or something!!

I totally agree with what Dragan is saying, if a guy wants to come up and say hi or whatever then fair enough, however some would do well to realise that no means no!

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#10 24-02-2009 03:59PM

Dragan

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Mcfast wrote: »

Dragan, wibbs what would you define as getting dressed up enough to ask for it?

I don't think there IS such a thing as dressing up enough to ask for it. I think people should just be able to dress how they want and not get any hassle over it. But, that is not the way the world works so you need to apply the same level of logic to other people as you do to yourself.

If Hot Girl A arrives home from work, showers, gets her make up on, gets her outfit on....it doesn't matter WHAT she looks like when she walks out the door, but if she is looking in the mirror beforehand and thinks "Well, i look attractive now" then she needs to accept that the public will pick up on this attractiveness too and act on it.

I mean, i had a girl walk up to me on a door one night and complain, because in her words "A loads of blokes inside and a few obvious ****ing lesbians keep staring me out of it".

She was dressed in a very short skirt, a very, very low cut top and had quite the figure. I asked her had she looked in the mirror before she went out and she gave me a confused look. I simply said "Look, you have a rocking body, and your dressed as you are, of course people are going to look. It's the social dynamic that you have set yourself up for. You've put yourself into the sphere of "desire". The only chance you have of going out and NOT getting stared at is to dress down a little and show less flesh. Might not be a great solution, but it's the only one you have".

I was expecting more blank looks but as it happens she was studying Sociology so we ended up having an hour long chat about it.

Were the stares and repeated come ons acceptable? Not really, but in a way, based on her style of dress, they were semi invited.

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#11 24-02-2009 05:10PM

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When I go out, I always get unwanted attention.. I am aware of what I look like.. how I dress.. what make-up I use.. etc..

I can honestly say.. that I know I bring some of it on myself by the way I dress.. I like to look good, sexy, attractive whatever.. It makes me feel good.. and I like the attention.. (who doesnt?) But what I really hate.. is those who can't take no for an answer.. those guys that think just cuz' im dressed in a certain way, im obviously "gaggin for it" or something.. and think I like the disgusting comments made toward me..

God, and the amount of times, I may have said No to a guys advances.. and then to be told "**** off, you slut, wouldnt have done ya anyway etc" is.. just highly amusing..

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#12 24-02-2009 05:16PM

Kya1976

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I personally find that it makes a huge difference how you dress, if I'm being lady muck, going to the stable or going for a run with my dogs wearing wellies and a cap and a smelly tracksuit I rarely get any attention but if I wear 'normal' clothes and put my face on I'll get a little more.

If receiving unwanted attention I always find that using the same methods/techniques as I use when I train 'bold' dogs work well.
*The ignoring technique: no eye contact, touching or talking.
If they put their paws on you, slightly turn until they 'fall off'.

*Has been tried and tested on both men and dogs with successful results.:P

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#13 24-02-2009 05:22PM

jim o doom

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Kya1976 wrote: »

I personally find that it makes a huge difference how you dress, if I'm being lady muck, going to the stable or going for a run with my dogs wearing wellies and a cap and a smelly tracksuit I rarely get any attention but if I wear 'normal' clothes and put my face on I'll get a little more.

If receiving unwanted attention I always find that using the same methods/techniques as I use when I train 'bold' dogs work well.
*The ignoring technique: no eye contact, touching or talking.
If they put their paws on you, slightly turn until they 'fall off'.

*Has been tried and tested on both men and dogs with successful results.:P

lol! whilst I find what you said extremely amusing, I must admit I am vaguely insulted by the comparison between dogs and men

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#14 24-02-2009 05:33PM

Mr. Presentable

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Dragan wrote: »

I simply said "Look, you have a rocking body, and your dressed as you are, of course people are going to look. It's the social dynamic that you have set yourself up for. You've put yourself into the sphere of "desire". .

Can anyone imagine this from a bouncer

Dragan, you must be the most top quality doorman in Ireland. I'll bet your work colleagues slag the veritable out of you.

OP, everyone has a right to be left alone, but if a girl (or guy) presents themselves in a shop window, they must expect offers to buy. But, a refusal should be the end of it.

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#15 24-02-2009 05:55PM

Kya1976

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jim o doom wrote: »

lol! whilst I find what you said extremely amusing, I must admit I am vaguely insulted by the comparison between dogs and men

well I was joking;)

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#16 24-02-2009 05:57PM

Dragan

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nipplenuts wrote: »

Can anyone imagine this from a bouncer

Dragan, you must be the most top quality doorman in Ireland. I'll bet your work colleagues slag the veritable out of you.

Ah, i've been out of that game for about 2 years now, thankfully! Still though, it was always fun to dismiss the idea of the "knuckle dragger".:)

For a time on one of the doors my nickname was "Professor", that was pretty funny. Then they started a rumour that i really WAS a Professor out in UL and i would have loads of people asking me about courses!! That was freaking hilarious.

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#17 24-02-2009 06:14PM

Mcfast

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Im amazed-in the other thread the girl said she didnt like certain places because of the way men treated her, it wasn't a few comments, it was bad incidents of being blocked from leaving a store for sexual favours,people asking her with her bf next to her for sex and when her friends were dancing men surrounded them and grabbed them all. Thats not normal behaviour anywhere but the poster is being told its her fault because of how she looks and people have automatically assumed its her being dressed innapropriately despite poster giving info on above situations and no info on how she looks.

it shocks me that someone can be almost sexually assaulted anywhere and people who dont even know what the girl looks like assume its her fault. Is this where were at now with women? its automatically her fault if shes attractive?will we only believe unattractive girls can be harrassed?

girls just like men get dressed up to feel more confident and attractive. im not sure how many men have had a girl following them or grabbing them, its happened to me (very) rarely but its a pain in the hole when it does. i would think its worse for a girl because of the possible fear/intimidation.

do you think its restricted to certain places or cultures?

i dont,i see it here all the time and it sickens me.its not even to the extent that the girl in the other thread posted about but its still invasive and shouldnt happen. im surprised theres not more uproar about this

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#18 24-02-2009 06:26PM

Dragan

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Mcfast wrote: »

do you think its restricted to certain places or cultures?

Nope, it more about certain personality types, but the thing there is that certain places and cultures will breed more of certain type of personalities than others.

It can also be a case of what people have gotten away with in the past. If a guy goes out and misbehaves a few times and gets away with it, it may become habit. If he goes out and misbehaves and gets called on it, or smacked in teeth, he may learn his lesson.

That why i always try and go the Agent of Karma route and if i see a person misbehaving, be it work or a night out, i am gonna call them on it. It's just a whole lot of fun to pull the rug from under them and put them into a situation that they no longer control. They tend to fade pretty fast then.

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#19 24-02-2009 06:35PM

Mcfast

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what if a friend told you that their friend has experienced this kind of behaviour-you dont know the person or how they look,would you or anyone assume it was how they dressed/looked that was to blame?

i thought the culture of blaming women for being harrassed was long gone but it seems its the case even in 2009

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#20 24-02-2009 06:39PM

Mcfast

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when the gf and i were in paris she had fellas trying it on strongly with her 24/7,even in jeans runners and no make up and even with me right next to her.unreal. it wasnt even hey how r u,it was filthy stuff that she found real distressin

if she re told the story and people blamed her for it because they assumed she was a slapper or dressed like one she d b very upset and theyd b wrong

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#21 24-02-2009 06:45PM

Wibbs

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Mcfast I know theres not a lot of it in your posts, but could you ease up on the oul txtspk? It's against the charter and there may be older viewers who find it irritating(IE me:)) Thanks.

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#22 24-02-2009 06:54PM

Mcfast

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hadnt noticed i was doing it-assume you meant the how r u

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#23 24-02-2009 07:38PM

ali.c

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Mcfast wrote: »

Inspired by a thread in travel where a poster blamed a girl getting unwanted attention on how she looked i have brought this q to tll. I know its almost more men then women so i thought id get a varied response not just the women.

So everyone if you hear a girl complaining of getting attention from men, either to much/to pervy/not hearing no/following them around/etc would you assume its the girls fault for how she looks or how she presents herself or what would you think? Do you think its different here compared to other places and is it better or worse and isit really much of a problem?

tbh I would have mixed thoughts on this, I have seen girls out acting provocatively and being provocatively dressed lapping up attention with no interest in any of the guys they are acting that way with. I know girls that are not really that assertive and find it difficult to clearly say no and

Then there are guys who are just asses and think that no really means maybe. But I have found that certain girls(although attractive) do not really fall subject to this type of behaviour for whatever reason and I think some of it down to whatever signals they give off.

Extreme harrasment like the incidences you described are outside of this though and IMHO are solely the responsibility of the individuals doing the harrasment

I am not that shocked at the reaction though, since to quote a recent opinion poll

Irish Examiner wrote:

at least 25% of people will attach some blame to women who are raped based on what they wear, where they walk or what they have to drink.
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/03/28/story58881.asp

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#24 24-02-2009 09:29PM

GirlInterrupted

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ali.c wrote: »

tbh I would have mixed thoughts on this, I have seen girls out acting provocatively and being provocatively dressed lapping up attention with no interest in any of the guys they are acting that way with. I know girls that are not really that assertive and find it difficult to clearly say no and

Then there are guys who are just asses and think that no really means maybe. But I have found that certain girls(although attractive) do not really fall subject to this type of behaviour for whatever reason and I think some of it down to whatever signals they give off.

Extreme harrasment like the incidences you described are outside of this though and IMHO are solely the responsibility of the individuals doing the harrasment

I am not that shocked at the reaction though, since to quote a recent opinion poll

You could go out in a bin bag, and still be hit on twenty times.

If you smile, if you are polite, if you make casual eye contact, if you do anything other than be completely closed off, and disgustingly rude, to allcomers, you will be told you are giving off signals and its your fault you're being targetted.:(

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#25 24-02-2009 09:54PM

ali.c

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GirlInterrupted wrote: »

You could go out in a bin bag, and still be hit on twenty times.

If you smile, if you are polite, if you make casual eye contact, if you do anything other than be completely closed off, and disgustingly rude, to allcomers, you will be told you are giving off signals and its your fault you're being targetted.:(

Likely by the same type of tards who think that if a woman is unfortunate enough to be sexually assaulted she is somewhat to blame. I dont get that kind of thinking its completely ridiculuos and IMHO disrespectful to both men and women

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#26 24-02-2009 09:59PM

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The travel thing isn't about how you look, or what you are wearing.
It is the fact that your as a foreigner your percieved as vunerable, lacking in street smarts, an easy target. Certain people keep their eyes open for soft touches.

Except the nightclub incident, that is just how packs of Italian men behave stereotypically.

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#27 24-02-2009 10:00PM

Acacia

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GirlInterrupted wrote: »

You could go out in a bin bag, and still be hit on twenty times.

If you smile, if you are polite, if you make casual eye contact, if you do anything other than be completely closed off, and disgustingly rude, to allcomers, you will be told you are giving off signals and its your fault you're being targetted.:(

I agree. I don't like being rude to people (i.e. guys that approach me), so I find it hard to let someone know I'm not interested without directly moving away from them, or saying "I have a boyfriend." Then I'm accused of 'leading them on' even though I just want to be polite and chat with them for a few minutes. I don't know what's the best thing to do really.

I accept wearing certain clothes will attract men's attention, but I don't think it's okay to constantly hound a girl because she's wearing a short skirt for example.

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#28 24-02-2009 10:05PM

liah

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So hold on. How come no one has brought up simple male accountability yet?

Just because a girl's out dressed to the nines doesn't mean a guy has to be sleazy about hitting on her. He has self control and the ability to direct his actions! He can choose what he says, does, how he reacts-- regardless of how the girl dresses..

..Any guy who goes up and hounds a girl who's dressed like that and insults her if she doesn't reciprocate is just a sleazeball, nothing to do with the girl provoking him by her dress, jesus...

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#29 24-02-2009 10:26PM

Mcfast

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These are the posts i was reffering to in the worst destination thread of the travel forum.

Tje first one with the girl talking bout she didnt like the places http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59152636&postcount=186

The response has been edited by a mod but it said to the best of my knowledge -its obvious from your post that you need to tone down the look, less make up, longer skirts, less skin showing. girls who dress up are asking for it or something-not exactly what it said but tjat was the impression.As the post was edited i cant copy and paste.

The other response was http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59167780&postcount=208

Now nobody asked the girl what she looked like or what she was wearing-it was all just assumed immediately. Given the dept of harrassment the girl went through to say i was shocked by responses is mild.

I would have thought in this day and age a girl should be able to buy some chewing gum without nearly being assaulted in any part of the world. Im completely appalled that posters here would automatically assume its a girls fault without knowing anything about her. I wonder what would happen if a girl who did like to doll herself up said shed encountered this kind of treatment-would it then be more than assumed?would it be a definate that it was her fault?

Aside from this incident(its what made me begin the thread not the content of it) do you girls encounter this attitude regularly? Is it reflected in the clothes you wear and is that attitude throuwn at you? How does the above situation and situations make you feel?

i was wondering why i alone in being appalled that people would assume its the girls fault for her looks despite them not knowing what she looked like. im glad to see im not

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#30 24-02-2009 11:41PM

R.D. aka MR.D

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This is a great thread because i've experienced this so much in the area i used to live in last year.(dublin 8) I realise that when in a nightclub some men will leer at you and make comments etc but when walking around at 1 o clock in the day its madness!

I was left in tears one day because I was going down to the shop in a pair of baggy denim jeans down to my knees and and a v-neck vest top, and a man blocked me on the street and looked me up and down and made me feel disgusting.:mad: I said to him whats your problem? he just laughed and walked away. I'm not a soft person but i felt so so so upset by it. I never walked down that road without a jacket again and hated myself for letting it effect me.

It happened several times when during the day i would sexually propositioned or followed down the road with someone trying to stop me and say things to me.

Everyones advice?
Don't dress so provocativly!
yes indeed..baggy shorts...jeans...thick black tights and skirt. I'm quiet self-concious about my body (especially my legs) so I never dress in anything that could be considered inappropiate!

its difficult for a woman to stand up for herself on a quiet road to someone who obviously has very little respect for women.

How do we deal with people like this?

It definitly doesn't help when many peoples attitudes are: well hes only a man, he can't help it!

In other countries however, I think its important to fit in with what is expected with local woman (unless your over there to stage some sort of rebellion)
I have experienced things in other countries and it was simply because i am so pale (I'm practically see-through:p) nothing to do with what I'm wearing!

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#31 25-02-2009 01:19AM

Húrin

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Dragan wrote: »

She was dressed in a very short skirt, a very, very low cut top and had quite the figure. I asked her had she looked in the mirror before she went out and she gave me a confused look. I simply said "Look, you have a rocking body, and your dressed as you are, of course people are going to look. It's the social dynamic that you have set yourself up for. You've put yourself into the sphere of "desire". The only chance you have of going out and NOT getting stared at is to dress down a little and show less flesh. Might not be a great solution, but it's the only one you have".

I was expecting more blank looks but as it happens she was studying Sociology so we ended up having an hour long chat about it.

heh, complete with Bordieu references?

Mcfast wrote: »

do you think its restricted to certain places or cultures?

i dont,i see it here all the time and it sickens me.its not even to the extent that the girl in the other thread posted about but its still invasive and shouldnt happen. im surprised theres not more uproar about this

In Iran the rulers think that women who get raped are to blame for it.

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Unwanted attention-girls fault?

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