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[Article] Music-swapping sites to be blocked by internet providers

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    #152
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    I think everyone probably agrees that this deal isn't great news; but:
    1) They are going through the courts, even if the deal will in effect short-circuit the process somewhat;
    2) It's not eircom's job to stand up in court for the rights of its customers. The board of Eircom is bound by the companies acts to act in the best interest of the eircom shareholders not the customers; and standing up for the customers rights to download copyrighted material would be expensive and thus not in the shareholders best interests.
    3) It's groups like Digital Rights Ireland who are meant to take cases like this to court; have you donated to their funds or volunteered to help them today?


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    #153
    Nate--IRL--
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Nate--IRL--


    Donald-Duck wrote: »
    They still have to get a court order.

    OK now we are getting somewhere, I'm not sure how all this works. I will admit to being ignorant as to what obtaining a court order involves for both IRMA and eircom, also as this is a civil matter isn't the burden of proof on eircom to oppose any order?

    Can IRMA be denied a Court order if eircom do not contest it?

    Nate


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    #154
    Iago
    Registered Users Posts: 6,638 ✭✭✭Iago


    Nate--IRL-- wrote: »
    OK now we are getting somewhere, I'm not sure how all this works. I will admit to being ignorant as to what obtaining a court order involves for both IRMA and eircom, also as this is a civil matter isn't the burden of proof on eircom to oppose any order?

    Can IRMA be denied a Court order if eircom do not contest it?

    Nate

    In short yes they can be denied.

    The burden of proof is on IRMA to show that any website they wish to have blocked is allowing users to access, distribute or download copyrighted material that they don't hold the rights to.

    They must further prove that blocking access to this site is legal under both Irish and EU law and that it doesn't infringe on any other law that may have precedence over it.

    If they can prove that then the judge will give an order for access to that site to be blocked.

    All eircom are doing is stating that when the court summons is made they won't lodge a formal objection before proceedings start. If they were to lodge an objection it would be along the lines of them not having any liability for what users access through an internet connection once that connection has left their network. It would probably take the form of the ISP is simply a conduit which can be used for activity, but is not a censor or monitoring system unless ordered to do so by a governmental agency or some such. This has traditionally been the defence other ISPs have used in the past.


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    #155
    Nate--IRL--
    Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Nate--IRL--


    Iago wrote: »
    In short yes they can be denied.

    The burden of proof is on IRMA to show that any website they wish to have blocked is allowing users to access, distribute or download copyrighted material that they don't hold the rights to.

    They must further prove that blocking access to this site is legal under both Irish and EU law and that it doesn't infringe on any other law that may have precedence over it.

    If they can prove that then the judge will give an order for access to that site to be blocked.

    All eircom are doing is stating that when the court summons is made they won't lodge a formal objection before proceedings start. If they were to lodge an objection it would be along the lines of them not having any liability for what users access through an internet connection once that connection has left their network. It would probably take the form of the ISP is simply a conduit which can be used for activity, but is not a censor or monitoring system unless ordered to do so by a governmental agency or some such. This has traditionally been the defence other ISPs have used in the past.

    Iago, thanks for clearing that up. It seems its not a clear cut as I'd feared.

    Nate

    Edit:- Why have IRMA not gone down this route before? Has the legislation changed to allow then to pursue this avenue? Why would this work now rather than a few months ago? If another ISP did oppose what chance of success would they have within the current legislation?


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    #156
    NullZer0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭NullZer0


    Think we could get a list of people here that would be interested in switching from Eircom should this happen?


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    #157
    Iago
    Registered Users Posts: 6,638 ✭✭✭Iago


    Nate--IRL-- wrote: »
    Iago, thanks for clearing that up. It seems its not a clear cut as I'd feared.

    Nate

    Edit:- Why have IRMA not gone down this route before? Has the legislation changed to allow then to pursue this avenue? Why would this work now rather than a few months ago? If another ISP did oppose what chance of success would they have within the current legislation?

    Up until recently the labels have pursued individuals who were uploading significant amounts of copyrighted files. There are a couple of reasons for doing this, 1) they wouldn't have to worry about a potentially drawn out and expensive legal battle with ISPs 2) they don't have to worry about the data protection act which prevents ISPs or hosted sites from providing information to them.

    On the negative side (as outlined in the linked article) they were spending a small fortune for little return. In order for it to make sense they needed to go a level up and bring action against all users rather than individuals. Having decided that, they went after eircom as the countrys biggest ISP.

    The initial position was that they wanted direct access to eircoms network and to install their own choice of filtering software on the network, that prompted eircom to bring them to court where a compromise solution was reached.


    http://siliconrepublic.com/news/article/12181/new-media/big-four-music-labels-and-eircom-in-landmark-piracy-settlement

    following that is the latest "site blocking" action which will now need to go to court each time they want to block a site. It will be very interesting if piratebay win their case in Sweden in terms of deciding whether or not it can be blocked from Irish ip ranges. My gut feeling is that it will as I believe our copyright laws are far stricter than Swedens, but I don't know for sure.


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    #158
    Mathiasb
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Mathiasb


    When I was choosing between all the ISPs here (the two), I found out about Eircom's WEP router history. I also saw the letter:

    http://www.bartbusschots.ie/blog/?p=540

    How anyone can chose a such incompetent ISP as Eircom is beyond me.


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    #159
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Cabaal wrote:
    Not referring to a law here, simply if the torrent allows you to download copyright material then its breaches your ISP's T&C's....

    So... the issue's not about legality. Fair enough. IRMA are entitled to lobby and eircom side up to them if they like.

    Cabaal wrote:
    the search box enter nothing and press search...take say the first 5 pages of torrents and tell me how many are legal v illegal linked content

    I certainly count a hell of lot more illegal linked torrents then legal

    So... the issue is about legality. Fair enough. IRMA can make their case in court and eircom can (and will be obliged to) abide by any court decisions in that regard.


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    #160
    NullZer0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭NullZer0


    Hold on
    how will this effect other/smaller ISP's?

    Don't the others use a "backbone" from Eircom?


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    #161
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    nacimroc banned for 7 days for suggesting further off-topic tinfoil hat crap, any further suggestions of this type of laughable nonsense earns further bans


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    #162
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Mathiasb wrote: »
    People don't have any choice but to download rips from the internet <SNIP>.

    Yeah thats great, that however does not justify breaking the law,
    You can try justify it all you want in your twisted mind but its still illegal


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    #163
    Mathiasb
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Mathiasb


    iRock wrote: »
    Hold on
    how will this effect other/smaller ISP's?

    Don't the others use a "backbone" from Eircom?

    It depends on how Eircom will censor their users.

    * If they use a simple DNS redirect, use another DNS server (already mentioned, http://www.opendns.com/ )
    * If they block on a per IP basis - use a proxy while browsing such as Tor ( http://www.torproject.org/ )


    Example that will happen sometime in the future (might already have happened, because it's a highly likely scenario):

    Eircom customer A has his router at standard settings, letting anyone with half a brain into his internet connection, free to do whatever they want.

    Eircom customer A has a neighbor (neighbor A) who doesn't have an Internet connection, but sees customer A's access point, so connects to it and starts downloading questionable material, perhaps child porn, or whatever illegal.

    Eircom customer A gets an angry letter from Eircom saying that he's suspended or whatever because they have evidence that he downloaded illegal material. Or worse, he has the police knocking on his door because he "downloaded child porn". He'll never know what hit him. The police have evidence, his router's IP is in their logs with filenames etc! Who are you going to believe, the evidence or the ISP customer?


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    #164
    Donald-Duck
    Registered Users Posts: 1,119 ✭✭✭Donald-Duck


    Mathiasb wrote: »
    It depends on how Eircom will censor their users.

    * If they use a simple DNS redirect, use another DNS server (already mentioned, http://www.opendns.com/ )
    * If they block on a per IP basis - use a proxy while browsing such as Tor ( http://www.torproject.org/ )


    Example that will happen sometime in the future (might already have happened, because it's a highly likely scenario):

    Eircom customer A has his router at standard settings, letting anyone with half a brain into his internet connection, free to do whatever they want.

    Eircom customer A has a neighbor (neighbor A) who doesn't have an Internet connection, but sees customer A's access point, so connects to it and starts downloading questionable material, perhaps child porn, or whatever illegal.

    Eircom customer A gets an angry letter from Eircom saying that he's suspended or whatever because they have evidence that he downloaded illegal material. Or worse, he has the police knocking on his door because he "downloaded child porn". He'll never know what hit him. The police have evidence, his router's IP is in their logs with filenames etc! Who are you going to believe, the evidence or the ISP customer?
    Well after he got warning 1, he could ask eircom about it. And they would walk him through changing his WEP password, or changing it to using WPA.

    For someone that seems to know something about computers, your routers IP arguement is poor and flawed. And is just you trying to be melodramatic.


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    #165
    AntiRip
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,244 ✭✭✭AntiRip


    Is this really going to stop people though? I don't like torrents myself, but are they going to start blocking the thousands of blogs with illegal links, the thousands of hosting companies, newsgroups, etc etc. Interesting article here about a Norwegian minister.

    "The music industry should embrace the Internet instead of fighting it, according to the minister. “All previous technology advances have led to fears that the older format would die. But TV did not kill radio, the Web did not kill the book, and the download is not going to kill music,” Solhjell wrote. The music industry fears new technologies according to Norway’s Minister of Education. He believes that if radio had been invented today the record labels would have tried to shut that down too. “But just as the radio and cassettes haven’t killed music, it is a preposterous claim to say that file-sharing does,” Solhjell told VG nett"


    I couldn't care less if I never downloaded music but filtering the internet is dangerous because where do you stop!


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    #166
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Mathiasb wrote: »
    Eircom customer A gets an angry letter from Eircom saying that he's suspended or whatever because they have evidence that he downloaded illegal material. Or worse, he has the police knocking on his door because he "downloaded child porn". He'll never know what hit him. The police have evidence, his router's IP is in their logs with filenames etc! Who are you going to believe, the evidence or the ISP customer?

    Your forgetting that eircom are going to be operating a three strikes policy (something made VERY clear) as such if the owner of the router doesn't take action to insure their router is secure correctly then they have themselfs to blame if they get their account terminated.

    Ignorance is not an excuse,

    Also don't try to compare child porn to you downloading a copyright album/episode/movie/software...its not the same thing and its not what the industry is after or reporting on

    Donald-Duck wrote: »
    Well after he got warning 1, he could ask eircom about it. And they would walk him through changing his WEP password, or changing it to using WPA.

    For someone that seems to know something about computers, your routers IP arguement is poor and flawed. And is just you trying to be melodramatic.

    Mr Duck your talking sense :)


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    #167
    NullZer0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭NullZer0


    Regarding the 3 strikes policy - will eircom customers be notified that the policy has come into effect in writing?


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    #168
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    AntiRip wrote: »
    Is this really going to stop people though? I don't like torrents myself,
    ...
    I couldn't care less if I never downloaded music but filtering the internet is dangerous because where do you stop!

    Of course it's not. Like you said there there are multiple ways around any blocking they put in. Also I'd put money on tPB setting up a new domain with a new IP mirroring the main site within a day of Eircom blocking them. Just on principle they'd do it :D

    And I completely agree - going down the censorship road in the first place is very dangerous.


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    #169
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    iRock wrote: »
    Regarding the 3 strikes policy - will eircom customers be notified that the policy has come into effect in writing?

    I would "hope" that eircom would amend their T&C's to include this but nobody can answer your question for sure...you could try contacting eircom though


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    #170
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Cabaal wrote: »
    I would "hope" that eircom would amend their T&C's to include this but nobody can answer your question for sure...you could try contacting eircom though
    I doubt they will. Their argument will be that they are just enforcing their current T&C. BT didn't tell anyone when they started making calls to downloaders so why should Eircom.


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    #171
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,270 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Macros42 wrote: »
    Of course it's not. Like you said there there are multiple ways around any blocking they put in. Also I'd put money on tPB setting up a new domain with a new IP mirroring the main site within a day of Eircom blocking them. Just on principle they'd do it :D
    Doubt it, never done for Denmark but as noted they will have problems holding it up in EU court by the looks of it.

    Either way what will happen is simple, between tunneling, proxy servers etc. you will see a lot of smaller companies that will offer standard users easy and cheap complety encrypted access to Internet over Eircom et al for security purposes. They will be sold as "protect your identity online and ensure that you don't leave any footprints".

    This is already happening around the world and once it reaches that good luck trying to do anything about it. All Eircom will see (and care for) is that it goes to IP X (legal) and from there it will be a company in say Saudi Arabia (no copyright laws, try to sue them down there!) that routes your request on to where ever you want to go. Net result is another major failure for the music industry and now they can't even find the individual users any more. For the end user they simply get a new start up page with a login name and password, very simple to use even for someone who's got no idea what a torrent is.


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    #172
    Mathiasb
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Mathiasb


    Donald-Duck wrote: »
    Well after he got warning 1, he could ask eircom about it. And they would walk him through changing his WEP password, or changing it to using WPA.

    For someone that seems to know something about computers, your routers IP arguement is poor and flawed. And is just you trying to be melodramatic.

    The CP thing was just an example. I didn't know about the 3 strike rule, it seems reasonable.

    Why is my "routers IP argument" flawed?


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    #173
    PaddyTheNth
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭PaddyTheNth


    Nody wrote: »
    All Eircom will see (and care for) is that it goes to IP X (legal) and from there it will be a company in say Saudi Arabia (no copyright laws, try to sue them down there!) that routes your request on to where ever you want to go. Net result is another major failure for the music industry and now they can't even find the individual users any more. For the end user they simply get a new start up page with a login name and password, very simple to use even for someone who's got no idea what a torrent is.
    Yup.

    Technology will keep evolving. I'd be surprised if in the next couple of years there wasn't an entirely distributed tracking system developed for torrents...like DHT but with a discovery mechanism that doesn't require a centralised node at all.

    Utterly futile for the AAs to be continuing with this - even if they manage to get orders against various websites and Eircom take the easy way out and comply with them the net effect of such censorship in terms of preventing file sharing is going to be minimal in a couple of years.


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    #174
    NullZer0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭NullZer0


    Eitherway there will be a new protocol/means of distribution in no time.


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    #175
    Mathiasb
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Mathiasb


    iRock wrote: »
    Eitherway there will be a new protocol/means of distribution in no time.

    There is now, already. And in case you want to encrypt your drives: http://www.truecrypt.org/

    Works on all major OSes.


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    #176
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    Umm what? That's for disk/file encrytion. Nothing at all to do with distribution. It is an excellent app but where's the relevance?


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    #177
    uncle_sam_ie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,191 ✭✭✭uncle_sam_ie


    Hey Irma, your going to need to get Eircom to block most of the Internet. Because, it's taken me just 5 mins to learn how to get around this. Good Luck.:D


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    #178
    Mathiasb
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Mathiasb


    Macros42 wrote: »
    Umm what? That's for disk/file encrytion. Nothing at all to do with distribution. It is an excellent app but where's the relevance?

    That's why I said "if you want to encrypt your drives".

    It's just a matter of time before the Garda breaks into peoples home on behalf of Sony BMG et al, to search people harddrives for "illegal files".

    Can't be too prepared ;)


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    #179
    jor el
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,713 ✭✭✭✭jor el


    Mathiasb wrote: »
    It's just a matter of time before the Garda breaks into peoples home on behalf of Sony BMG et al, to search people harddrives for "illegal files".

    That isn't what's happening. There is no criminal investigation here, nor is there even any civil action being taken against people. Misinformation and hype like this, does not help this discussion.


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    #180
    smiddyboy
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭smiddyboy


    Article on Torrentfreak about this now.... http://torrentfreak.com/music-industry-orders-bittorrent-blackout-090223/

    Looks like Bitbuzz aren't too happy.
    “We don’t support illegal activity on our network but this is an unprecedented agreement,” said Alex French of Ireland’s leading Wi-Fi service Bitbuzz. “Is the music industry planning to become Ireland’s de facto internet censor?”

    So it seems. However, Eircom could be digging an even deeper hole for itself. By agreeing to censor the Internet at the behest of not the police, but a private and commercially driven organization, it has effectively dumped its own common carrier protection.

    Furthermore, The Pirate Bay (or any other sites Ericom intend to block) have never been deemed illegal in Ireland. This has to be seen as a very worrying development. So, open the floodgates, everyone is going to want sites blocked soon and if you’ve got enough cash, it’s on the cards with Eircom. At the very least, let’s hope Eircom is going to make its list of banned sites public, along with their reasons for blocking each and every site, properly referenced under the law.

    And let’s hope the rest of Ireland’s ISPs stand up for themselves.


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    #181
    Mathiasb
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Mathiasb


    jor el wrote: »
    That isn't what's happening. There is no criminal investigation here, nor is there even any civil action being taken against people. Misinformation and hype like this, does not help this discussion.


    ... YET. This is the first step in the wrong direction. It's not a completely impossible future.


This discussion has been closed.
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