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IMF will sort the public sector out if they don't cop on

24567…13

Comments

  • #32
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,305 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    tech2 wrote: »
    Why is 20% taken off?

    The levy is tax and PRSI deductible.
    tech2 wrote:
    prsi contributions amounts to 19 a week or over 1000 a year

    Yep, same as everybody else pays. We all pay low PRSI.
    tallaght01 wrote: »
    Yea no probs, when the public sector stop selling us gaffs in tallaght for 500k etc etc

    I think you'll find they have.
    tallaght01 wrote:
    Wouldn't need to be benchmarked if the private sector weren't driving up inflation with their ridiculous wage demands when we were stuck for staff.

    LOL. You do realise benchmarking was a con, the biggest caused by whinging public servants? It was paid out of the tax revenues from those builders you moan about. Your paying it back now as we are all paying for the construction bubble.


    jahalpin wrote: »
    The recession is a global thing and cannot really be blamed on the Irish government.

    Most of our trade is with countries that are also experiencing a recession, so when they cutback on buying things we suffer very badly.

    Most of the problems with the Irish and UK banks (exc. Anglo Irish) were in fact caused by banks in the US.

    Our Property bubble was larger than most countries. The sub prime crisis had little effect on Irish banks, bad lending did.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #33
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    The people working in the motor tax office on crap money, and the people working on the xray desk in the hospital, the physiotherapist who earns about 40% less in the hospital than in the lucrative private field.......none of these people caused the recession.

    THE PRIVATE SECTOR DID.

    And now it's the public sector worker who's bailing everyone out, despite this being a private sector issue.

    You talk about the private sector as if we were all ceos making the decisions. I didn't cause the recession, you didn't cause the recession, i think it's safe to say that no one who posts on boards caused the recession. The big bosses in private sector companies made some horrendous decisions and now their employees are taking the hit through pay cuts and massive redundancies, even though they didn't cause the recession

    Your employer is the irish government and i'm sure you'll agree they made some horrendous decisions over the past few years. It was their job to prevent this through regulation. And now just like any company, their employees have to take the hit.

    You.re not bailing out the private sector, you're paying the price for all the bad decisions made by the big boys in your company, the same as everyone else


  • #34
    darkman2
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    I hope we don't get into a blame game while we watch the country go down the tubes. Everyone is angry - im angry but we all need to act together if we are going to get out of this and we need to do it now.


    Think about next year - the government will need an EXTRA 4 billion in savings! What's going to happen then:eek:


    The government should go for the jugular and dish out all the pain now instead of putting it off IMO.


  • #35
    Shiny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭Shiny


    Deleted User wrote: »
    has the IMF ever been successful?Just reading up on it nw and all the countries it tried to help now have larger debt than before the IMF intervened

    I was reading up on it also this morning.

    Apparently some countries fell, after IMF intervention.

    In fairness, if 50% of the public sector were sacked, the country
    would be in a pretty bad state after it.


  • #36
    darkman2
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    Shiny wrote: »
    the country
    would be in a pretty bad state after it.

    True but if we can't afford to pay them then what? We might have no choice. Nobody wants to see anyone lose their job but how can we possibly get out of this and get our finances in order if the Civil Service does not change?


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  • #37
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 18,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    You.re not bailing out the private sector, you're paying the price for all the bad decisions made by the big boys in your company, the same as everyone else
    Well put. It's annoying as hell, but that's the simple truth of it - we're all paying for bad decisions made by a relatively small number of people. That's both private and public and both sides need to recognise that.


  • #38
    CreepingDeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,015 ✭✭✭CreepingDeath


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    My dad, who works in the poblic sector, has lost 25k off his nest egg,

    Nest egg = pension then ?
    All private pensions have taking a hammering, we don't have defined benefits at the end of it. So the private sector workers have had maybe 30-50% of their pensions wiped off and are expected to foot the bill for the public sector pensions on top of that.
    tallaght01 wrote: »
    Many many many people in the private sector spend their days on boards. I know them myself. They literally spend hours on the net. there are huge inefficiencies in the private sector.

    If there was, then so what ?
    Private companies are not being funded by the Irish taxpayer, that's the difference. Inefficient companies can and are going to the wall, it's natural selection. Only the healthy ones are surviving.
    tallaght01 wrote: »
    ...none of these people caused the recession.

    THE PRIVATE SECTOR DID.

    No. The financial sector did, there's a big difference.

    tallaght01 wrote: »
    While some of us stayed in the crappy public jobs, to keep the place ticking over.

    Nobody forced you, you made a choice.
    And I doubt you done it for the good of the country.


  • #39
    Zzippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    darkman2 wrote: »
    The IMF is looking at Ireland - in a very big way. You see, they think this country is bankrupt, and already they have thier plans. I can gaurantee that the IMF, when called in, will sack half our public service and tell the remaining to take at least a 50% pay cut......enough to make many homeless. The IMF are accountable to nobody. No "protest" will change their mind. Is this what the public service wants? Moaning about just a pension levy when so many private workers lose their jobs!?


    TBH I am out of symphaty - I want the IMF in here to cull the public service -I don't think we can do it ourselves. This country in bankrupt and insolvent and how dare public sector secure workers (protesting because of an extra 40 euro per month levy!!!) protest on our streets when so many of us private sector workers are being sacked. They have, however, scored a massive own goal because the IMF loooovvvveeee protests - now they can come in and sort us out.

    I hope they do at this stage.

    Generalise much? :rolleyes:

    Yeah, like every private sector worker is taking a wage cut or losing their job... there is a big majority of private sector workers who won't lose their job or have to take a pay cut. Just because some private sector workers are losing their job doesn't mean everyone is in the same boat. Why should these private sector ppl in their good jobs and good pay not have to share some of the burden?
    A tax increase would have been a much fairer way of sharing the pain than this levy which only hits one sector. A tax increase would mean everyone in employment contributes. Those who lose their jobs would not be paying anything. Just because someone may lose their job in the future is no reason to expect them not to contribute now, when they are working.

    You, like a lot of other people, have fallen for the big con - as Mairt says - divide and conquer, turn us all against each other so we blame each other rather than turning on the government and big business who got us into this mess.


  • #40
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    It was on the radio that a public sector worker would need to donate 26% of their salary if they were to pay for their guaranteed pensions.

    Maybe the IMF would give them a much higher pension levy????


  • #41
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Generalise much? :rolleyes:

    Yeah, like every private sector worker is taking a wage cut or losing their job... there is a big majority of private sector workers who won't lose their job or have to take a pay cut. Just because some private sector workers are losing their job doesn't mean everyone is in the same boat. Why should these private sector ppl in their good jobs and good pay not have to share some of the burden?
    A tax increase would have been a much fairer way of sharing the pain than this levy which only hits one sector. A tax increase would mean everyone in employment contributes. Those who lose their jobs would not be paying anything. Just because someone may lose their job in the future is no reason to expect them not to contribute now, when they are working.

    You, like a lot of other people, have fallen for the big con - as Mairt says - divide and conquer, turn us all against each other so we blame each other rather than turning on the government and big business who got us into this mess.

    Their private pension fund which they pay for fully has fallen a lot over the past year and there is no guaranteed level of pension when one retires unlike the public sector.
    My pension fund lost over a third of its value, the public sector worker has lost nothing except they now cry over having to pay a little more for their guaranteed pension.


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  • #42
    what2do
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 414 ✭✭what2do


    tallaght01 wrote: »

    THE PRIVATE SECTOR DID.

    I have no problem with listening to people who work in carpet shops etc moan about is public sector workers. But your company more than likely borrowed above their needs, and their ability to pay. They most likely paid stupid money to to many people, who then felt like they were affluent, so they bought big houses and big cars with money they thought they'd have in the future.
    QUOTE]

    I think if you apply the above comment to the government if may give you an insight into these problems....

    the govs ability to pay - the banking issues are damaging the govts ratings hence the cost of borrowing is going up...(IMF don't care who caused these problems)

    "Most likely paid stupid money to many people" - eg the tribulals etc to name one big cash spend for the govt


    I work in the private sector so whilst it is hard to have sympathy for the public sector I think it gives me a more realistic view. If my co cannot afford to pay salaries, cut backs and redundancies is the way of saving costs.

    How then can anyway say that eventhough the govt does not have the funds available that no staff should have to suffer cutbacks ???

    Also while we blame the finance sector does anyone look at the bigger picture - there is a global crisis and Ire is a very small player in the global markets hence the impact on us. The government didn't have the reserves in place to help thro the bad times - it was all about spending in the good times.


  • #43
    Ostrom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,483 ✭✭✭Ostrom


    darkman2 wrote: »
    The IMF is looking at Ireland - in a very big way. You see, they think this country is bankrupt, and already they have thier plans. I can gaurantee that the IMF, when called in, will sack half our public service and tell the remaining to take at least a 50% pay cut......enough to make many homeless. The IMF are accountable to nobody. No "protest" will change their mind. Is this what the public service wants? Moaning about just a pension levy when so many private workers lose their jobs!?


    TBH I am out of symphaty - I want the IMF in here to cull the public service -I don't think we can do it ourselves. This country in bankrupt and insolvent and how dare public sector secure workers (protesting because of an extra 40 euro per month levy!!!) protest on our streets when so many of us private sector workers are being sacked. They have, however, scored a massive own goal because the IMF loooovvvveeee protests - now they can come in and sort us out.

    I hope they do at this stage.

    Sources please

    Reports, reliable quotes, academic papers....? Anything?


  • #44
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Think of it this way:

    Intel is a company that makes money by selling microchips. The government is a company that makes money through tax

    One of intel's major customers is dell, they buy billions of chips every year. If people stop buying computers, dell stops selling computers and stops buying chips from intel

    The result is that intel loses money because it's selling fewer chips and the government loses money through less vat intake

    In that scenario, neither intel nor the government are at fault, but when intel makes cuts because of falling revenue do you see their employees throwing a tantrum saying "it's not my fault revenue is down, blame dell for not buying our chips. I'm not taking any cut"?

    Of course you don't because private sector employees understand that if no money is being taken in, no money can be given out, something which public sector employees don't seem to comprehend


  • #45
    Unpossible
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭Unpossible


    If we all make sacrifices and agree to lower wages or higher taxes and work together we can dig ourselves out of this and restore our reputation. However needing to be bailed out by the IMF would destroy our credability. Why would anyone invest in a country that can only develop itself when being funded and guided by outside sources (eg the IMF and EU) and which falls apart at the first sign of trouble.
    Lets follow the nodic countries, free education, cheap yet high quality health care, ministers who will resign when suspected of doing wrong, better infrastructure, no tribunals or quangos wasting money, less TDs on less pay and higher taxes to help pay for it. You just have to accept that we cannot all have more than one house and go on two or more expensive foreign holidays a year.
    Less is perhaps more.


    edit: for perspective, I'm a private sector worker on 25k a year with a wife on 11k a year (a job she will be losing in a month or two), we are graduates with a child and are renting.


  • #46
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,001 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Think of it this way:

    Intel is a company that makes money by selling microchips. The government is a company that makes money through tax

    One of intel's major customers is dell, they buy billions of chips every year. If people stop buying computers, dell stops selling computers and stops buying chips from intel

    The result is that intel loses money because it's selling fewer chips and the government loses money through less vat intake

    In that scenario, neither intel nor the government are at fault, but when intel makes cuts because of falling revenue do you see their employees throwing a tantrum saying "it's not my fault revenue is down, blame dell for not buying our chips. I'm not taking any cut"?

    Of course you don't because private sector employees understand that if no money is being taken in, no money can be given out, something which public sector employees don't seem to comprehend

    One thing that seems apparent is that the public sector seem to hit some kind of mysterious reset switch each day on this conversation and we just have to go through the same crap each time.

    Resisting discussing the topic like the public sector resists changes in work practices. Either that or they all have amnesia or are drinking themselves stupid each night and can't remember the previous day and need to attend AA meetings.

    I've come to the conclusion that discussing with them is non-productive and pointless and we should just ignore them and so should the government and just make whatever cuts they want. If they refuse to work, there are plenty of people to take their places/jobs.

    The current attitude of the public sector is getting us nowhere.

    Oh and the government aren't dividing and conquering. I'm very pissed at them and reading on that situation with golden circles and dodgy bank dealings and kickbacks etc.. too because I'm an adult and capable of focusing on more than one topic. I'm sick of that worthless excuse being thrown out there.


  • #47
    ninebeanrows
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,780 ✭✭✭✭ninebeanrows


    It looks like the coming week could be the beginning of the end.

    Everyone needs to realise that these 7% decreases in pay for the public sector is a mere droplet. The problem needs a correction of such a huge figure its unmeasurable at this stage probably too late.


  • #48
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    Weathercheck wrote: »
    It looks like the coming week could be the beginning of the end.

    Everyone needs to realise that these 7% decreases in pay for the public sector is a mere droplet. The problem needs a correction of such a huge figure its unmeasurable at this stage probably too late.



    And who's going to pay for it?
    Everybody.
    The people who arent affected by the levy at the moment are going to be whinging and crying salt tears of thier own when the next budget comes round...
    And judging by some of the stuff people in the Private sector on here are saying(and presumably beliving) i'm increasingly inclined to tell them as a body to go **** themselves and dont be knocking the unions for at least attempting to sort this mess out.


  • #49
    ninebeanrows
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,780 ✭✭✭✭ninebeanrows


    Degsy wrote: »
    And who's going to pay for it?
    Everybody.
    The people who arent affected by the levy at the moment are going to be whinging and crying salt tears of thier own when the next budget comes round...
    And judging by some of the stuff people in the Private sector on here are saying(and presumably beliving) i'm increasingly inclined to tell them as a body to go **** themselves and dont be knocking the unions for at least attempting to sort this mess out.

    The problem is so big that 7% will be laughed at come the next budget, we are talking huge tax increases. Peoples pay packets will need to shrink by 20% to even level this boat.

    At this stage all of this means nothing if we cannot keep international investors confident in Ireland, otherwise our money will be shipped out in the coming days and we really will be in big trouble. We won't really need to care about what we are earning.


  • #50
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Degsy wrote: »
    And who's going to pay for it?
    Everybody.
    The people who arent affected by the levy at the moment are going to be whinging and crying salt tears of thier own when the next budget comes round...
    And judging by some of the stuff people in the Private sector on here are saying(and presumably beliving) i'm increasingly inclined to tell them as a body to go **** themselves and dont be knocking the unions for at least attempting to sort this mess out.

    standing outside leinster house screaming "give us money you don't have" and refusing to acknowledge that you should take any cut when your employer has an 18 billion deficit doesn't count as "sorting this mess out". it more counts as "making the mess worse"


  • #51
    Highsider
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭Highsider


    Was out with some friends last night and one of them (teacher) was moaning and groaning about having 2500 odd cut out of her wages :mad:. I felt like standing up and walking out and the wife knew it. FFS there are people out there losing everything in the private sector and this one on 45k a year is thinking off going on strike for the sake of 2.5k....The amount of pure greed out there is shocking.


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  • #52
    Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,007 ✭✭✭Moriarty


    The funniest thing about this recession: armchair economists.

    NO WAI GUYS, DIS EYE EM EFF TING IS GOING TO TAEK US OVER AND DEN THARLL BE NO BREAD LEFT FOR DAH HAM SAMBOS?!?!!!!!!!!!!11111111 DEM DERE PUBLIC SECTOR, DEY TOOK AUR JAWBS!!!!!?!!!!?!!!?!


  • #53
    Ostrom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,483 ✭✭✭Ostrom


    Moriarty wrote: »
    The funniest thing about this recession: armchair economists.

    NO WAI GUYS, DIS EYE EM EFF TING IS GOING TO TAEK US OVER AND DEN THARLL BE NO BREAD LEFT FOR DAH HAM SAMBOS?!?!!!!!!!!!!11111111 DEM DERE PUBLIC SECTOR, DEY TOOK AUR JAWBS!!!!!?!!!!?!!!?!

    Thank. You.


  • #54
    nevey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 110 ✭✭nevey


    I'm a teacher of 7 years experience, on a Temporary Whole-Time contract for 3 years (basically waiting my turn for one of the older teachers to retire and vacate a permanent whole-time position so I could get some job security). The change in pupil-teacher ratios means I won't have a job next September (unless lots of other teachers retire in the meantime, which is unlikely).

    I am just sick of hearing about everyone saying that public sector workers won't lose their jobs. Those like me who are deliberately held at arms length with annually renewed temporary contracts as a matter of policy are completely disposable. I am not saying that this is a bad policy (you have to have wiggle room with such huge numbers on the payroll), just that it exists and I and lots of others will have to look for a new job.

    Anyway, all this (1% levy, pension levy, even losing my job) I could accept without a problem if the government of the day were spreading the pain evenly. The problem is that they aren't. Why not bring in a higher tax band for the well-off to do their bit? Why not bring the TDs and senior civil servants salaries back into line with their peers in the EU. Their exorbitant salaries were the result of the flawed benchmarking process which went too far.

    The government have pulled off a wonderful coup pitching this as a public sector vs private sector battle. While low paid (and unemployed) in each sector slag each other off, those that are really responsible for our current property and banking crisis are still untouchable. I believe "Seanie" Fitzpatrick is currently relaxing in Marbella.


  • #55
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    the unfortunate reality in every country in the world is that rich people get away with stuff like this. so let's all get together and organise a protest to march on the dail to force the government to make rich people pay. but let's also stop pretending that the pension levy is in some way related to the fact that rich people aren't paying and that it wouldn't be necessary if they were


  • #56
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 18,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    nevey wrote: »
    Anyway, all this (1% levy, pension levy, even losing my job) I could accept without a problem if the government of the day were spreading the pain evenly. The problem is that they aren't. Why not bring in a higher tax band for the well-off to do their bit? Why not bring the TDs and senior civil servants salaries back into line with their peers in the EU. Their exorbitant salaries were the result of the flawed benchmarking process which went too far.
    I can understand why they introduced a levy, I cannot understand why they didn't introduce additional measures alongside it - like a new tax band as you suggest as well as increasing tax rates. It not only would have made far more sense from a PR perspective (because it'd share the pain indeed), but it also seems bloody necessary.

    Then again I'm not sure why I can't understand the government doing something stupid these days...


  • #57
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,305 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    ixoy wrote: »

    Then again I'm not sure why I can't understand the government doing something stupid these days...

    Some of us seen the country couldn't afford benchmarking and the pay increases that were given and were warning about it for years.

    They are lucky to get 1/2% in the North. Yes the cost of living is cheaper but so are wages. Notice the link?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #58
    ongarite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,920 ✭✭✭ongarite


    nevey wrote: »
    Anyway, all this (1% levy, pension levy, even losing my job) I could accept without a problem if the government of the day were spreading the pain evenly. The problem is that they aren't. Why not bring in a higher tax band for the well-off to do their bit? Why not bring the TDs and senior civil servants salaries back into line with their peers in the EU. Their exorbitant salaries were the result of the flawed benchmarking process which went too far.

    I think you might find that the well-off don't pay their fair share of taxes is a myth if you look at the figures.
    The top 6.5% of income tax payers pay 50% of this countries total income tax take of €13B.
    The top 2.5% of income tax payers pay 30% of this countries total income tax take.
    38% of workers in this country pay absolutely no income tax at all, not even the 1% levy.

    If we are all for equality and spreading the pain, all workers should pay income tax not just the better off 6.5% that pay 50% of income tax.

    Tax bands will have to be slashed back to late 90s, early 2000 levels along with increases in income tax.

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055493548


  • #59
    Fishtits
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭Fishtits


    Guys, no point looking back... look forward and do something about it.

    Public Sector Pension Levy - if you believe the figures the Gov supply, existing defined benefit pension schemes are massively underpaid by current (including the levy) deductions, fine, lets have the real cost and let individual Public Servants opt in or opt out of the scheme. No complaints thereafter.

    As for the rest of it, why can't we have a simple business plan - ie we need to cut our deficit by X, this is how we're going to do it, when the deficit falls to X-1 we'll reduce this levy/tax rate by so much etc. Then we can all see the benefit of hanging in there and sorting this mess out.

    As it stands its all punishment and no incentive to take it IMHO. :mad:

    PS. I do not see the IMF having a hand in our affairs, anyone who understands what they do, coupled with our membership of the Eurozone would dismiss this out of hand.


  • #60
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Fishtits wrote: »
    As it stands its all punishment and no incentive to take it IMHO. :mad:

    the incentive is that the country might well go bankrupt if you don't. when my company sacked a few thousand people we didn't talk about the incentives to take the sackings, they just picked people and let them go. why should you be any different because your employer is the government instead of a ceo?


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  • #61
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 18,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    why should you be any different because your employer is the government instead of a ceo?
    Take your pick... :

    * We didn't cause this, the banks did! As banks have no customers that helped trigger this, we're in no way responsible!

    * We never saw the Celtic Tiger, so why should we suffer now? In now way did we ever benefit from the Celtic Tiger!

    * We're vastly underpaid! Every single person in the private sector laughed at us when we said we were entering the public/civil service! Every single one of 'em!!!

    * Do you really want us unhappy? We teach your kids, save your family when sick, and rescue little kittens! Do you want dead un-educated kittens on your conscience?


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