Why are people not livid about this?

20goto10 · 04-02-2009 01:58PM

sassa wrote: »

It's ridiculous surely they knew they weren't going to be changing anyones mind.

There's certain things you can't do over the phone. That Mary Caughlan bird has a fine pair of lips on her

MIN2511 · 04-02-2009 02:06PM

Why do we blame the Government for the recession? We are not the only country in recession, yes our Government has made loads of stupid decisions and we have to pay the price. But every time Brian Cowen cuts public expenses someone starts a thread.

Everyone says we should do something about it, WHAT CAN WE DO?
How do we get Ireland out of this mess?

Sky News just reported that HOF, Hanley's and Icelandic owner Baugur has filed for bankruptcy. Between both companies they probably hire 1000 staff in Dublin.

Dannyboy83 · 04-02-2009 02:10PM

MIN2511 wrote: »

I am not saying the spending is justified, i am asking if they had saved the Dell jobs would you be this livid?

Yes, I think people would be.
We are on the first leg of a massive global economic collapse.
Dell are just a big piece in a huge jigsaw of the Irish economy.
If I read this in a history book about the Soviet Union, I wouldn't be surprised.
In the United States, Blagojevich was kicked out of Chicago for corruption. They seem to have anti-corruption measures in the USA.
We don't seem to have any anti-corruption measures here.
We need to build some.
Urgently.

You do know it was an entourage, not just the two of them?
They could have had a 164 person retinue.
At least then there would be some small justification in the expenditure.

Yes they should have but they probably thought Dell would remain in Ireland(tax purposes).
I disagree, I work in IT and knew back in 2005 that Dell were pulling out however, this is a different topic and I don't want to discuss it.
I want to discuss : METHODS ON HOW TO TACKLE ECONOMIC CORRUPTION

Everytime we rant about the way FF has failed us, yet we put them in power every election:rolleyes:
Possibly. I don't honestly know.
I have no political affiliations or ambitions.
I would let the European Union or Michael Dell run the country if they would do a good job of it.
It would be difficult to find a more corrupt organisation that the one we have right now.

I didn't vote in the last election, i wasn't sure of my right to vote as a foreigner....
I voted for Michael Martin in the past, because he seemed good at his job.
And I think he has made some good changes, smoking ban has helped me to quit smoking etc.
But it said nothing on the political posters or small print I saw about the right to rob the Irish taxpayer.
These people are elected for OUR benefit.

Can you name for me any company where the Leaders would be allowed to act like this?
I can think of one - Enron. They got jail.

FG/Labour i don't know if either would have made a difference
I don't know myself.
I don't like the political alternatives that are there.
I'm not interested in supporting a new political pary.
I am interested in some kind of measure that could be used to tackle the political corruption of ANY party in ANY decade.

For the record however: I do think that a new party would be less wasteful than the current party however. This party have been in power too long and have become too accustomed to it. I don't understand how they justify this.
I realise that a lot of the factors affecting the Irish economy are global and far beyond the control of current political parties.
I do, however, think that it makes sense to discharge the drunken captain if hes shooting guidance flares from our bunker to the enemy bombers!

Degsy · 04-02-2009 02:10PM

**** dell

**** The government

**** Brian Cowen.

marcsignal · 04-02-2009 02:22PM

Degsy wrote: »

**** Brian Cowen.

+1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3vEOSkk5AM

MIN2511 · 04-02-2009 02:23PM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

For the record however: I do think that a new party would be less wasteful than the current party however. This party have been in power too long and have become too accustomed to it. I don't understand how they justify this.
I realise that a lot of the factors affecting the Irish economy are global and far beyond the control of current political parties.
I do, however, think that it makes sense to discharge the drunken captain if hes shooting guidance flares from our bunker to the enemy bombers!

The problem is we are all complaining, but no one wants to put themselves up and offer the country what it needs.

Dannyboy83 · 04-02-2009 02:26PM

MIN2511 wrote: »

The problem is we are all complaining, but no one wants to put themselves up and offer the country what it needs.

MIN - can you please try to understand that I'm not interested in complaining.

I want to know WHAT CAN I DO?

Do you know?
Do you know someone who knows?

For example, in America they have the RICO statutes for tackling organised crime. This is a framework for prosecuting people suspected of organised crime.

Does any similar such tool exist in Ireland for tackling political and economic corruption?

MIN2511 · 04-02-2009 02:40PM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

MIN - can you please try to understand that I'm not interested in complaining.

I want to know WHAT CAN I DO?

Do you know?
Do you know someone who knows?

For example, in America they have the RICO statutes for tackling organised crime. This is a framework for prosecuting people suspected of organised crime.

Does any similar such tool exist in Ireland for tackling political and economic corruption?

My apologies....

I would also like to know what we can do...

RICO sounds good, i don't know if we can ever implement that in Ireland. Because the theft started from the top of the ladder

Fizman · 04-02-2009 02:41PM

What would Brian Boitano do, if he was here right now? He'd make a plan and he'd follow through, cos thats what Brian Boitano'd do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_j5AI2InB0

:pac:

mumhaabu · 04-02-2009 03:08PM

€165k that cost practically nothing

You should see Mary Harney and BIFFO's travel, last time these two behemoths left the country they had to charter a C17 Globemaster just to the lift the weight of them, it also had to have 6 inflight refuelings over the Irish sea before touching down in Heaththrow causing the Kent Eathquake. Their Personal travel consumed so much fuel that it was the sole cause of Oil hitting $147/barrel last July.

Apparently the only trouble encountered by Willie and Farmer Mary was sh1te on Mary's wellies were causing an outbreak of F'M'D in Texas and Willie O'Dea was honoured at a meeting of the KKK and NRA.

Dannyboy83 · 04-02-2009 03:16PM

lets start with people in the private sector.
There already exists a framework for these abuses in the private sector.
If we treat the public sector as a huge private company, we should be able to migrate the framework.

How are private citizens in the private sector prosectued?
How were the likes of Enron held accountable?

Does anyone know the law around these matters?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 04-02-2009 03:26PM

Well I can understand why they cannot sit with the rest of us, they would be murdered there an then.

They shouldn't be wasting our money like that.

Not another fcuking "private sector V public sector" will ye all just fcuk off with that crap.

RedPlanet · 04-02-2009 03:28PM

marcsignal wrote: »

+1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3vEOSkk5AM

Ah, i'm getting "this video is no longer available".
Didn't get a chance to see it.
Can you let us know what was said?

Naos · 04-02-2009 03:31PM

Wagon wrote: »

To be fair, i didn't vote last election. I couldn't make up my mind on time and decide who would damage the country the least, and I didn't want to vote for an independant on principle.

Why not?

Wagon wrote: »

I was using logic and assumed after all the previous cock ups, frivolous spending and inemptitude they showed at their jobs (not to mention people saying how they were absolute crap and wanted them out) that they wouldn't be voted back into power.

You were not using logic. If you didn't want FF in then you could have used your logic and voted an opposing party, such as FG. That would be using your logic.

Wagon wrote: »

And somehow it happened and I couldn't believe it. WHO voted from them?! The elderly? the rich?

You did, indirectly, by being too lazy to vote an opposing party.

Dannyboy83 · 04-02-2009 03:31PM

Brinley Fluffy Magnesium wrote: »

Not another fcuking "private sector V public sector" will ye all just fcuk off with that crap.

Please keep this off the thread mate.

I'd like to keep this topic serious and dialed in on the issue I have outlined.
I am serious, I want to do something about this.

MOD REQUEST - Can you please delete any other offensive/non relevant posts?
Or alternatively move it to a more suitable forum if I am in the wrong one?

P.S The public sector employees are more upset than anyone, they took a 10% paycut yesterday don't forget.
If I lost E3,500 of my salary per year because my Boss said the company had no money, and then I saw my Boss driving to work in a new Ferrari, I would put a stone through his back window before quitting.

banshee_bones · 04-02-2009 04:44PM

steof1984 wrote: »

This is a farce once again the TD'S of this country are living the champagne lifestyle on public funds.

People should write a letter to the government demanding an explanation and also to the opposition so that they can highlight this in the next Dail debate

The problem seems to be that people don’t want to make a fuss the people of the politicians constituencies should ask next time they canvass the area WHY THE F**K DID IT COST YOU 80,000 TO FLY TO THE STATES

+1 to the HILT, could not agree with you more..but whyyyy they dont do it when they are faced with a politician on their doorstep? because they get all "starstruck" and gooey with Mr-smiling-baby-kisser on their doorstep and wouldnt dare challenge him. i say to you people GROW A PAIR.

Well GOD help the day any politician from FF lands on my doorstep......

Hagar · 04-02-2009 04:53PM

The IRA were shooting the wrong enemy. Is it too late to get them back?

deadhead13 · 04-02-2009 05:01PM

What was Willies response? - I could do with a laugh.

Abdiel · 04-02-2009 05:03PM

As some have pointed out this should not be a public V private argument.

The whole issue here is that it's another example of the government of this country being completely incompetent and so out of touch with reality that they think nothing of squandering tax payers money on themselves.

In all the talk of paycuts, I have yet to hear out politicians volunteer to half their own salaries - given that they are grossly overpaid and underworked as it is. The current minister's salary is approx 240,000 so for example take out Minister for Health - appointed in 2005. This person has claimed best part of a million euros in salary from the state - for what exactly? Is the health service any better? No, and no matter now many spin doctors they pay to make it look otherwise, everybody knows it has descended to 3rd world levels. Also on the minister for health, it seems to me everytime somebody criticises her she immediately points the finger at the HSE - in which case if everything is down to them, why do we even have a minister for health??? Of course it doesn't help that she herself is qualified as a primary school teacher - which somehow makes her think she should talk to everybody as though they are 4 year olds.

There are obvious parallels to the Haughey era here today. We are being told to tighten out belts by a government who is still squandering tax payers money on a daily basis. How much is the storage of e-voting machines still costing us? How much did the storage of unused garda cars cost us? And probably more sickening that anything, how much tax payers money has been squandered on giving ridiculous pensions to ex TDs? They only have to get elected once and they have a pension for life, they do not have to wait till they are 65, ffs they hardly even show up to the Dail when they do get elected. IT seems somewhere along the line the people of this coutry decided that they would all be happy to pay taxes to be squandered by a useless, overpaid, lazy, incompetent, arrogant and self-preservationist elite most of whom have absolutely no qualification to be doing the jobs they are paid for.

It's time for people to get off their backsides, march to the Dail and let them know we are mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore. 500,000 people turn up outside the Dail and how long do you think this sorry excuse for a govt will last? IF you all sit at home and boards or newpapers is as far as you are willing to go with your protests, then till govt will still be here for a few more years yet, and whats the bet in this sham democracy that they will get voted in again by lifelong FF voters, who are obviously too stupid to be even entitled to vote - I mean if you vote for the same party no matter how badly they perform, how do you expect change??

</end rant>

javaboy · 04-02-2009 05:04PM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

MOD REQUEST - Can you please delete any other offensive/non relevant posts?
Or alternatively move it to a more suitable forum if I am in the wrong one?

This is After Hours. You'll get a mix of proper debate, people making jokes and idiots being idiots (the ratio's around 1:10:10). If you want to really discuss something seriously, it's not always the best place.
I'm not going to move the thread or delete it at this stage as too many people have posted but if you want to try posting it in Politics or some other more appropriate forum, go ahead. Just check that there isn't already a thread on it there and that it doesn't contravene the charter of whatever forum you do post it in.

daveharnett · 04-02-2009 06:19PM

Am I the only person who isn't apoplectic about this?

First of all, I think that it is entirely appropriate that a private jet be available for government business - can you imagine the international press if our minister for DEFENCE was delayed abroad for two days because of an airline strike? It's not about status, it's about not being dependant on the whims of public transport.

Secondly, I'm willing to bet that the figure is misleading. Private jets are expensive - and not just when they are in the air. I'd suspect that the figure was derived by taking the annual cost of running the jet, dividing by the total time it spent in the air, and multiplying by the time spent on this trip.

Before anybody suggests it, I am in NO WAY a supporter of this government, the parties in it, or the politicians named here. I just think it more sensible to get upset about real issues rather than symbolic ones.

galwayrush · 04-02-2009 07:46PM

MIN2511 wrote: »

Would this bother you if they had been sucessful with Dell?

Of course it would, discraceful waste of money when dumb and dumber could have been sent there on a regular flight for approx 1K. Even better, for half price they could have gone on a one way ticket and stayed there.

FlutterinBantam · 04-02-2009 08:00PM

Jim O'Keeffe is it.??

I could tell you a few things about Jim O'Keeffe and air travel.

Going back to when he was in power.

'Nuff said.

dfx- · 04-02-2009 08:05PM

madmik wrote: »

they probably landed in the same airport as well

I'm sure they could've driven to Dell HQ in a 1988D Toyota Starlet as well - it would've got them to the same reception desk as a Mercedes after all. And walked into the room wearing a t-shirt and ripped jeans than suits. Why stop at just the flights?

What next? Make them fly in a biplane because it's even cheaper again?

drunkmonkey · 04-02-2009 08:14PM

Abdiel wrote: »

they are grossly overpaid and underworked as it is. The current minister's salary is approx 240,000 so for example take out Minister for Health - appointed in 2005. This person has claimed best part of a million euros in salary from the state - for what exactly?

this sham democracy that they will get voted in again by lifelong FF voters, who are obviously too stupid to be even entitled to vote - I mean if you vote for the same party no matter how badly they perform, how do you expect change??

</end rant>

+1
For that money i'd be expecting 90hrs a week +, and I mean work, not swanning around in an s class opening shops....

Sham democracy is right, our whole election process dooms us to be left with unqualified individuals in unqualified jobs.... you put the best people in the best jobs and pay them the best wage, that way you will get positive change......

we don't need a democracy we need a boards of directors....:)

Dannyboy83 · 05-02-2009 03:50PM

daveharnett wrote: »

Am I the only person who isn't apoplectic about this?

First of all, I think that it is entirely appropriate that a private jet be available for government business - can you imagine the international press if our minister for DEFENCE was delayed abroad for two days because of an airline strike? It's not about status, it's about not being dependant on the whims of public transport.

Secondly, I'm willing to bet that the figure is misleading. Private jets are expensive - and not just when they are in the air. I'd suspect that the figure was derived by taking the annual cost of running the jet, dividing by the total time it spent in the air, and multiplying by the time spent on this trip.

Before anybody suggests it, I am in NO WAY a supporter of this government, the parties in it, or the politicians named here. I just think it more sensible to get upset about real issues rather than symbolic ones.

Well, this has gone totally off topic unfortunately, I'll have to start a new thread because I want to find out how to do something.

Before I bail on this one tho, I just wanted to point out that this is not a symoblic issue.
That was 164,000 of real money.
Was it symbolic people doing symbolic work and paying symbolic taxes?

Ministir O'Dea racked up over 1/2 million euro worth of costs on airplanes alone.

The government have 2 aircraft - the Gulfstream and the Learjet
They don't even use the Learjet because it doesn't have a toilet.

Even worse, they forked out a ridiculous amount of money to buy the bloody aircraft when Michael O'Leary of RyanAir offered to pick one up on the cheap because he orders them by the hundred.

I have said it before and I will re-iterate again:
If you sharing a house with 5 people.
The 5 of you have a joint account.
4 of you go to work and contribute a lot of money to the joint account.
The fifth person spends most of their time withdrawing money from the account.

Would you see a problem with that?

Dannyboy83 · 05-02-2009 03:58PM

dfx- wrote: »

I'm sure they could've driven to Dell HQ in a 1988D Toyota Starlet as well - it would've got them to the same reception desk as a Mercedes after all. And walked into the room wearing a t-shirt and ripped jeans than suits. Why stop at just the flights?

What next? Make them fly in a biplane because it's even cheaper again?

You make them sound hard done by.

FYI, An Taoiseach is paid 250,000 per year.
TDs, make in excess of E100,000 per year and have an expense account for roughly the same amount.

Let me put it to you like this:
Most of the people I went to University with, after 4 years are still earning below the 35k mark.
The average industrial wage was supposed to be 35k per annum in 2008.

Politicans have about E200,000 at their disposal per annum.

Ratio of 1:0.175

When you think about that ratio - is it really so strange that we have such an incompetent and corrupt government?
You can bet if there was a law that limited their income to 35,000 per annum instead of 200,000 per annum, you would have a lot more people doing it for the job and not for the money. (Even the TDs would be hard pushed to generate 170,000 worth of bribes)

What is your stance on Bank Executives getting multimillion euro severance packages after exposing Ireland to colossal public debt?

javaboy · 05-02-2009 05:52PM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

You can bet if there was a law that limited their income to 35,000 per annum instead of 200,000 per annum, you would have a lot more people doing it for the job and not for the money. (Even the TDs would be hard pushed to generate 170,000 worth of bribes)

Don't get me wrong. I'm a civic minded person. But if I the country's top economist or accountant and I had a choice between a private sector job paying a couple of hundred thousand or Minister for Finance at 35k, I know what I'd choose. Although they are overpaid, capping salaries isn't the answer. That would just severely curtail the number of people willing to do the job.

walshb · 05-02-2009 05:57PM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=83548-qqqx=1.asp

Tuesday,February 03, 2009
Ministers’ trip to Dell HQ costs taxpayer €164,000

By Pat Flynn
THE cost of flying Tánaiste Mary Coughlan and Defence Minister Willie O’Dea to Texas to meet with Dell boss Michael Dell last December has been confirmed to be more than €164,000, even though the cost per person on a scheduled service would have been less that €1,000.

Figures released by the Department of Defence in response to a question by Fine Gael TD Jim O’Keeffe, show that Mr O’Dea made eight overseas trips and used the Government jet for three domestic flights at a cost to the taxpayer of over €500,000.

Some of those trips were to destinations in Europe, including Brussels and Paris, which are served by airlines from Ireland.

The longest journey undertaken on a Government jet by Mr O’Dea last year was on December 14, when he accompanied Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment Mary Coughlan to Texas to meet Michael Dell ahead of the an announcement that 1,900 would be lost at the company’s Limerick plant.

The trip was taken in the Government’s Gulfstream IV jet, which travelled from Baldonnel to Austin, Texas, via Knock and Bangor (Maine). The time spent on board the aircraft was 1,250 minutes (20hr 50min), and at €7,890 per hour to operate the aircraft, the trip cost the taxpayer €164,375.

Member of the Dáil Public Accounts Committee, Jim O’Keefe said: “During the course of the Fás enquiries I came across evidence that foreign travel guidelines established by the Department of Finance were not being followed. I asked every minister to confirm what was spent on travel by their officials, persons, offices or bodies under their remits on foreign travel in the period January 1, 2008 and December 31, 2008.”

The total cost of the 11 overseas trips and three domestic flights undertaken by Mr O’Dea in 2008 was €515,141. These included three trips from Baldonnel to Shannon and back, which cost €7,866. The Taoiseach or other ministers accompanied Minster O’Dea on each of these trips.

The Department of Defence confirmed the “average total cost” per hour of the Government jets is €7,890 for the Gulfstream and €2,950 for the Learjet.

€164,000 would have paid social welfare for nearly 1000 people for 1 week and Tánaiste Mary Coughlan and Defence Minister Willie O’Dea could both have flown to Texas in comfort for less than E1000 each

We are not livid because here in Ireland we accept cronyism, chancers and brass necks. We actually applaud it; the bigger the gouger or chancer the more we love him/her. We lack the standards and the accountability.

In relation to this situation, if the jobs were maybe going to be saved, then spare
no expense on flights or anything. I think this was a case where money might, I say might, have been well spent! Bribe Dell; give them what they want if it keeps them here!

It didn't in the end though!

Why are people not livid about this?

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