Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

M9? - Is it a waste of money?

13

Comments

  • #102
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    johnnyc wrote: »
    will help to attract development outside of the GDA and will help the southeast to develop to its full potential.

    Will it? i doubt it.

    My guess is that the M9 and M25 will give the local councils(of whom the idea of co-operation in things such as planning are a laughable fantasy) ample opportunity to allow for sprawl of a few industrial estates, perhaps a few out of town shopping centres and the lovely suburban estates plonked down in a field 'only 30 minutes drive' from anywhere.

    With it comes the usual lack of foresight so public transport will be non existent, as will the most basic facilities like shops (at least within walking distance). The cost of doing business out of a motorway industrial park will always be cheaper then in either the Kilkenny or Waterford urban areas.


  • #103
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    sk8board - sorry wasn't clear - I meant a new road but not necessary motorway

    johnnyc - obviously LUAS doesn't go to Waterford however the Kildare Route Project, which is also "money spent in Dublin" should improve travel times by rail from Waterford by reducing holdups of Intercity trains behind commuter trains in that corridor.


  • #104
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Somebody mentioned this point before, but if the motorway had been built on schedule, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The road was meant to open in 2007:

    http://n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/project-programme.htm

    All the MUIs are late according to official documentation.


  • #105
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,875 ✭✭✭SeanW


    mike65 wrote: »
    Working from this point, the bigger you are the more you "deserve" so the weak get weaker relative to the largest city which of course is Dublin, the capital is already acting like a blackhole sucking in investment and resources which is why it and its hinterland have such a high per capita income compared to the rest of the country esp the SE and NW.

    What the country needs is balanced growth that requires what is at times disproportionate investment in specific regions to stop the skewing towards the "centre".

    I realise Dubs will snort at this citing shocking infrastructure deficits in the capital, I would say - true. Thats what happens when the regions are underfed - Dublin gets bloated.
    Quite the opposite, Dublin has been neglected and its infrastructure hobbled (sometimes intentionally) partly because of this kind of attitude.

    The fact is that cities - where people historically and presently come to trade goods and services in large and efficient quantities - are wealth generators. Imagine Bavaria without Munich or the U.K. without London. And Dublin's infrastructure is among the worst of any capital city in Europe - partly because of neglect and partly malice.

    I'll give you one example - Irish aviation. For example, the first air services agreement between Ireland and the U.S. in the '40s forbade any air travel between Dublin Airport and the U.S. whatsoever. The American airliners and the U.S. Civil Aeronautics Board became so agitated with our governments obstinate refusal to allow U.S. airlines to fly into Dublin that they threatened to throw Aer Lingus out of JFK if we didn't change our attitude in 1971. The government of the day had to find a way to keep the CAB from doing that while at the same time appeasing the Shannon trade union mafia and the professional victims in the West.

    Finally, TWA was allowed to run services between Dublin and the U.S. with the "Shannon Stopover" madness which continued in one form or another until 2008.
    Did you know also that Dublin Airport's runway is only 2.637 km long? That's the shortest of any main runway of any capital city in Europe? Ireland does have a longer and much higher spec runway, but it's in (Guess where) Shannon. This was done to force heavily laden planes to stop in Shannon to partially unload - but planes coming from the East primarily use Manchester Airport for this purpose. Another own goal.

    In the early 1980s the E.C. paid the Irish government to build a DART network for Dublin City, a 3 line system based on the DRRTS (Dublin Railway Rapid Transport Study) from the 70s, the gov't pocketed the money and forced CIE to borrow to build the 1 line now existing - on tracks that were already there.

    Dublin City is also very much car dependent and during the boom years there was no planning or attempts to keep property prices in check and little attempts to develop public transport except the Luas which was badly needed. Hence you now have people who live as far out as Tipperary, Western Co. Longford and Newry and work in Dublin. It's no longer a question "Boston Vs. Berlin" for Dublin's transport system, more like Los Angeles Vs. Lagos. If we allow that to happen we may as well pack it in.

    Anyone who thinks Ireland or any part of it is going to get better off by screwing Dublin is living on cloud cuckoo land.
    bk wrote: »
    The two Luas lines cost €800 million, it is being estimated that Metro North is going to cost €4 to 5 Billion. Big price difference, there was no way you could build a Metro line for just €800 million.
    I just want to correct this inaccuracy - the Metro will cost €4-5 billion partly because of the model of finance - the Public Private Partnership - which is like a giant Hire Purchase arrangement. i.e. it's a very expensive way to finance a project and much more expensive than government paying for construction (which is how they built the Luas).
    Actual cost of the Metro should be something like 1.8-3 billion.


  • #106
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Somebody mentioned this point before, but if the motorway had been built on schedule, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The road was meant to open in 2007:

    http://n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/project-programme.htm

    All the MUIs are late according to official documentation.

    This is the one that depresses me the most.

    http://www.thrdo.com/n25newrossdates.html

    New Ross bypass - Open 2007.


  • #107
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Chris_533976 wrote: »
    This is the one that depresses me the most.

    http://www.thrdo.com/n25newrossdates.html

    New Ross bypass - Open 2007.

    The whole website is depressing...


  • #108
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    I am against covering the country in money-wasting and environmentally damaging motorways in general, and the M9 does not fall into my threshold of which motorways are necessary. I don't think Waterford is big enough to justify it. Improve the N9 fine and improve rail, canal and bus services, but M9 is the wrong way to go.


  • #109
    sk8board
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,402 ✭✭✭sk8board


    Húrin wrote: »
    I don't think Waterford is big enough to justify it.

    and it will never expand without it, making it a necessity. Improving the n9 has been found to be impossible for decades, its only recently that we have the money to finally get the south-east connected to the rest of the country.

    In the past decade we've almost covered Dublin to Belfast/Galway/Cork/Waterford/Limerick/Kilkenny via motorway or dual-carriageway.

    Had they done this before announcing decentralisation, it might have been more successful :)
    Its not exactly the American freeway project from the 50's, but its crucial all the same.


  • #110
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    sk8board wrote: »
    and it will never expand without it, making it a necessity. Improving the n9 has been found to be impossible for decades, its only recently that we have the money to finally get the south-east connected to the rest of the country.

    Null and void argument, expand? connected?, this isnt the building of the pacific railroad, its a Motorway, which will still be running in parallel to the M8 and N/M11 for large parts.
    sk8board wrote: »
    In the past decade we've almost covered Dublin to Belfast/Galway/Cork/Waterford/Limerick/Kilkenny via motorway or dual-carriageway.

    Everyone knows this? why repeat it?
    sk8board wrote: »
    Had they done this before announcing decentralisation, it might have been more successful :)
    Its not exactly the American freeway project from the 50's, but its crucial all the same.

    The decentralisation programme is a failure, the M9 would not have changed this.


  • #111
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Húrin wrote: »
    I am against covering the country in money-wasting and environmentally damaging motorways in general, and the M9 does not fall into my threshold of which motorways are necessary. I don't think Waterford is big enough to justify it. Improve the N9 fine and improve rail, canal and bus services, but M9 is the wrong way to go.

    You make a valid enough point, but canal services? :D


  • Advertisement
  • #112
    Bards
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭Bards


    ... and Galway, Cork Limerick are Big enough to justify their Motorways??

    M9 is replacing two roads The N9 and the N10, traffic figures need to take this into account which they dont; as the NRA do not publish figures for the N10.

    M9 is shortest of all the motorways, and is the worst national route in the country.
    Sections of the M9 carry the same volume of traffic and higher as sections of the M6,M7, M8

    http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N06-11.htm M6 10K to 12K AADT

    http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N07-10.htm M7 9K to 13K AADT

    http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N08-12.htm M8 10K to 13K AADT

    http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N09-12.htm M9 12K to 17K AADT

    The Road is currently being built so this thread is a pointless excercise


  • #113
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Bards wrote: »
    The Road is currently being built so this thread is a pointless excercise

    I strongly disagree with that statement.

    I have acknowledged over and over again that the road is being built and that nothing is going to stop that.

    The intended purpose of the thread is to reflect on how the situation was handled and discuss if it could've been handled better or if it was handled correctly. It's an oppurtunity for those who support it to justify why it is under construction and an oppurtunity for those who don't to state why it shouldn't have gone ahead.

    An excercise that is far from pointless...


  • #114
    Bards
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭Bards


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    I strongly disagree with that statement.

    I have acknowledged over and over again that the road is being built and that nothing is going to stop that.

    The intended purpose of the thread is to reflect on how the situation was handled and discuss if it could've been handled better or if it was handled correctly. It's an oppurtunity for those who support it to justify why it is under construction and an oppurtunity for those who don't to state why it shouldn't have gone ahead.

    An excercise that is far from pointless...
    All those who are against it are arguing the AADT figures. why isn;t there a thread encompassing all the other MIU's whether or not they should have been built and is it a waste of money???

    Or change the title of the Thread. to "M9 - Is it value for Money?" this would be a fairer and more positive title

    BTW when is the Poll going to Close?


  • #115
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    I still stand by my argument that the M9 is needed. But I do think that one section of it should have been postponded and Mallow - Croom of the M20 built with that hunk of cash.


  • #116
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    Bards wrote: »
    All those who are against it are arguing the AADT figures. why isn;t there a thread encompassing all the other MIU's whether or not they should have been built and is it a waste of money???

    Or change the title of the Thread. to "M9 - Is it value for Money?" this would be a fairer and more positive title

    BTW when is the Poll going to Close?

    The argument strictly is not about AADTs, the argument is about whether or not the M9 deserves priority over at least a dozen other schemes with similar AADTs as well as schemes that whilst not politically glamourous would have eliminated critical pinch points around the network.

    In particular given the tough economic times would it have been wise to cancel/postpone at least the northern sections of the M9 to allow other more important projects to be built.

    I do think the the MIU programme has wasted a lot of money, the Interurban programme if rationalised could have been built by now, instead we are facing into recession with huge financial commitments to building duplicate green field motorways whilst our cities choke in congestion.

    I understand why our S/E posters are so protective of the M9 and wish to quell debate, i'm pretty certain you're intelligent people who know full well that the whole process around how the M9 got priority reeks of that peculiar kind of corruption that we're so good at doing in Ireland.


  • #117
    Bards
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭Bards


    invincibleirish wrote: »
    The argument strictly is not about AADTs, the argument is about whether or not the M9 deserves priority over at least a dozen other schemes with similar AADTs as well as schemes that whilst not politically glamourous would have eliminated critical pinch points around the network..
    ......and as I have repeatedly said before the M9 is not being prioritised, but will finish in line with the other MIU's

    we can go over and over the same ground ad nauseum until we are both blue in the face, but we are always going to disagree, so what's the point


  • #118
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    Bards wrote: »
    ......and as I have repeatedly said before the M9 is not being prioritised, but will finish in line with the other MIU's

    Now now Bards, i think you're being deliberately cute and avoiding the point in question, the M9 would not be built today without Mr. Cullens 'influence' in proceedings.


  • #119
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,475 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    invincibleirish wrote: »
    Now now Bards, i think you're being deliberately cute and avoiding the point in question, the M9 would not be built today without Mr. Cullens 'influence' in proceedings.

    Shock horror...........local minister delivers for constituency :D


  • #120
    Bards
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭Bards


    invincibleirish wrote: »
    Now now Bards, i think you're being deliberately cute and avoiding the point in question, the M9 would not be built today without Mr. Cullens 'influence' in proceedings.


    The M9 is part of the NDP 2000 - 2006, before Minister Cullen was elected to Senior Office and should have been completed in 2006. Only thing Cullen did was break the project into 4 phases as opposed to the two originally planned

    Anyway if you have to go down the road of Politics to justify why the M9 should or should not be built then you have lost the argument.

    Fact is N9 has more or less the same volume of traffic as the other MIU's and as such building the N9 as motorway is/was the right course of action.


  • Advertisement
  • #121
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    Bards wrote: »
    The M9 is part of the NDP 2000 - 2006, before Minister Cullen was elected to Senior Office and should have been completed in 2006

    Yes a lot of things were in the 2000-2006 NDP, but the problem with that plan, is that not a lot if got built or was on time because every constituency was promised goodies which of course the country couldnt afford, i suppose you can call it the 'one for everyone in the audience' approach to politics.

    Cullen was promoted to the DoT in 2004 btw.

    mfitzy wrote: »
    Shock horror...........local minister delivers for constituency :D

    you say it like its a good thing:).


  • #122
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Bards wrote: »
    All those who are against it are arguing the AADT figures. why isn;t there a thread encompassing all the other MIU's whether or not they should have been built and is it a waste of money???

    Or change the title of the Thread. to "M9 - Is it value for Money?" this would be a fairer and more positive title

    BTW when is the Poll going to Close?

    The thread title is fair. It doesn't say "The M9. A waste of money", it asks the question "is it a waste of money?". The original intend of this thread was to move the discussion from another thread.

    It's not an anti-S/E thing. Have you not noticed my other thread: "The M20 - is it really neccessary?". People have not been complaining that that's unfair. I don't this thread is unfair either.

    And why should the poll close? I see no valid reason for that.


  • #123
    Bards
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭Bards


    Fact is close on 60% of this poll agree that the M9 was NOT a waste of money = case closed

    AADT figures are in line with the other MIU's so why pick on the M9?


  • #124
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    Bards wrote: »

    AADT figures are in line with the other MIU's so why pick on the M9?

    M9 represents wasteful government spending?

    An example of parish pump politics in play?

    poor national planning?

    If you want to use AADT figures to justify your argument then there are a huge number of projects which arent being funded which are more worthy of being developed then the M9.


  • #125
    Bards
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭Bards


    invincibleirish wrote: »
    M9 represents wasteful government spending?

    An example of parish pump politics in play?

    poor national planning?

    If you want to use AADT figures to justify your argument then there are a huge number of projects which arent being funded which are more worthy of being developed then the M9.

    All in YOUR opinion. Fact is Waterford is one of five oficial Cities of this Republic and all Cities are being linked by Motorway to our Capital

    As I have said before If you have to resort to politics and cheap political shots then you have LOST the argument.

    It is very good planning to have the central road scheme thhrough the heart of the S.E region linking the principal population centres in said region (to each other and Dublin) being of Motoray/HQDC standard.


  • #126
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    Bards wrote: »
    All in YOUR opinion. Fact is Waterford is one of five oficial Cities of this Republic and all Cities are being linked by Motorway to our Capital

    As I have said before If you have to resort to politics and cheap political shots then you have LOST the argument.

    It is very good planning to have the central road scheme thhrough the heart of the S.E region linking the principal population centres in said region (to each other and Dublin) being of Motoray/HQDC standard.

    Cheap political shots? hardly, good planning to duplicate motorways?, not really, Waterford should have a complete Interurban ahead of other worthy projects just because other 'oficial' cities get one? tenuous logic to say the least.


  • Advertisement
  • #127
    sk8board
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,402 ✭✭✭sk8board


    invincibleirish wrote: »
    Cheap political shots? hardly, good planning to duplicate motorways?, not really, Waterford should have a complete Interurban ahead of other worthy projects just because other 'oficial' cities get one? tenuous logic to say the least.

    you really do have a hard-on for the M9 don't you?! :rolleyes:

    All you arguments seem to center on the usual parish politics 'its all a conspiracy' nonsense that usually results in nothing every getting done.

    do us all a favour; when the M9 gets finished, use the old road instead as you own little protest. Although by the sounds of it that won't be an issue, cause I'm not sure you've ever had to travel on it.

    capital spending is about creating a platform for econmic progression. For that reason alone, to suggest that the M9 is not required for the southeast is pure and utter fallacy.


  • #128
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Bards

    "City" is a meaningless designation. What matters is where people live and where they and their goods are travelling. Look at places like Tallaght which on their own would be bigger than Waterford and left for decades with inadequate services and no dedicated city bureaucrats and TDs to fight their corner for lack of an English king granting a charter.

    What's going to happen, in my view, is the M9 will be built and Waterford folks are going to wonder why they are still a relative backwater. The answer is not width of tarmac, but the willingness of Kilkenny, Wexford, Waterford City and Waterford County to work together. The GAA jersey approach to urban development is holding Waterford (and Limerick) back, again because of lines drawn on a map a hundred years and more ago.

    As pointed out previously, there was absolutely a need to improve the existing road as it stood because some of the stretches were narrow and some downright dangerous given the traffic on them - but that doesn't justify on its own a jump to motorway status.


  • #129
    Bards
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭Bards


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Bards

    "City" is a meaningless designation. What matters is where people live and where they and their goods are travelling. Look at places like Tallaght which on their own would be bigger than Waterford and left for decades with inadequate services and no dedicated city bureaucrats and TDs to fight their corner for lack of an English king granting a charter.

    What's going to happen, in my view, is the M9 will be built and Waterford folks are going to wonder why they are still a relative backwater. The answer is not width of tarmac, but the willingness of Kilkenny, Wexford, Waterford City and Waterford County to work together. The GAA jersey approach to urban development is holding Waterford (and Limerick) back, again because of lines drawn on a map a hundred years and more ago.

    As pointed out previously, there was absolutely a need to improve the existing road as it stood because some of the stretches were narrow and some downright dangerous given the traffic on them - but that doesn't justify on its own a jump to motorway status.

    AADT on the M9 is the same as the other MIU's, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, if in your humble opinion the M9 is not needed then the same goes for the other MIU's (M6,M7 & M8)


  • #130
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    sk8board wrote: »
    you really do have a hard-on for the M9 don't you?! :rolleyes:

    All you arguments seem to center on the usual parish politics 'its all a conspiracy' nonsense that usually results in nothing every getting done.

    do us all a favour; when the M9 gets finished, use the old road instead as you own little protest. Although by the sounds of it that won't be an issue, cause I'm not sure you've ever had to travel on it.

    capital spending is about creating a platform for econmic progression. For that reason alone, to suggest that the M9 is not required for the southeast is pure and utter fallacy.

    :rolleyes:


  • #131
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    sk8board wrote: »
    Capital spending is about creating a platform for econmic progression. For that reason alone, to suggest that the M9 is not required for the southeast is pure and utter fallacy.

    The problem with this rationale though, is it could be used to justify any expenditure regardless of how beneficial it is.


  • Advertisement
  • #132
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    Bards wrote: »
    AADT on the M9 is the same as the other MIU's, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, if in your humble opinion the M9 is not needed then the same goes for the other MIU's (M6,M7 & M8)

    Straw man argument, What you really mean is that because Cork/Limerick/Galway get a Motorway then Waterford has to have one too, irrespective of want or need, classic gombeen Ireland in play.

    Btw the M8 has 2 tolls, ditto the M4/6, and 1 toll on the M7 & M1, the M9 has none, only in Ireland could such madness occur!.


  • #133
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    The poll result is quite interesting:

    Roughly 87% people realise that there is a major problem with the M9 and it needs to be improved.

    Then there is a roughly 60% chunk that think the M9 was perfectly justified and was right to go ahead as it did.

    There is a 28% of people that think it shouldn't have gone ahead as motorway or priority should've been given to other schemes. I presume Newlands Cross would be the one most people would've gone for.

    8% of us think it's a complete waste of money and the other chunk of us (including myself) are impartial.

    Just to make my viewpoint clear:

    Well, first of all, I'm a road enthusiast, so I guess my viewpoint is kinda slanted. :D

    Second, I think ONE of the M9 schemes should've gone ahead this year, and that the scheme should've been the southern M9 scheme (the worst parts of the road). The other money I think should have gone into Newlands Cross, an SRR upgrade or filling in the missing gap in the N11.

    Whether or not the road should've been motorway is an issue I'm not sure of. For the average AADT, I think top-quality single carriageway with provision to be widened, along with DC sections for the Waterford-Knocktopher section and Carlow Bypass would have sufficed. I wouldn't have gone with 2+2. Big waste of money through greenfield sites, you'll nearly as easily get a "proper" DC in there.

    On the other hand however, if the section did end up like the Nenagh bypass, I would be the one criticising the government's short-sightedness.

    As for capacity, motorway has a capacity of 52,000 AADT. Single Carriageway, the top quality stuff, can have a capacity from 9000 - 15,000. 2+1 is around 19,000 AFAIK. 2+2 comes in around 25,000 methinks (not sure, I'll have to check it out again).

    The problem with capacity in Ireland, is that hardly any of our motorways are used to their fullest extent. Motorways are generally built for safety in Ireland and because the old roads are so poor.

    Anyway, a question for our S-E posters (this isn't meant to be mean or anything, it's just a question):

    Do you think the M9 should have a toll?


  • #134
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,551 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    invincibleirish wrote: »
    Straw man argument, What you really mean is that because Cork/Limerick/Galway get a Motorway then Waterford has to have one too, irrespective of want or need, classic gombeen Ireland in play.

    Btw the M8 has 2 tolls, ditto the M4/6, M1 and 1 toll on the M7, the M9 has none, only in Ireland could such madness occur!.

    1 toll on the M1...


  • #135
    Bards
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭Bards


    Q. for Cork Boardsies. do you think it is fair that the Jack Lynch Tunnel isn't tolled when other Bypasses are tolled (Limerick, Dublin, Waterford)


  • #136
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    Bards wrote: »
    Q. for Cork Boardsies. do you think it is fair that the Jack Lynch Tunnel isn't tolled when other Bypasses are tolled (Limerick, Dublin, Waterford)

    Yes I do, although that doesn't mean I agree with the tolls on the other bypasses.

    The Jack Lynch tunnel is one of the only viable ways to cross the river. Had it been tolled, people would've just gone back into the city centre defeating the purpose of the project.

    The West Link toll is an abomination and should have been abolished long ago...

    The Waterford Bypass ideally shouldn't be tolled either, but in the circumstances, it was unavoidable. Limerick Tunnel, ditto.

    Anyway, my question to you and the other S-E posters was: "do you think the M9 should be tolled?"

    Specific bypass projects are different to long stretches of inter-urban motorway.


  • #137
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    Bards wrote: »
    Q. for Cork Boardsies. do you think it is fair that the Jack Lynch Tunnel isn't tolled when other Bypasses are tolled (Limerick, Dublin, Waterford)

    JLT tunnel when initially proposed back in the day was due to be tolled to pay for construction.

    There were proposals put forward by current Government i think in 2002/3 to toll key infrastructure already in place inc. the JLT. These proposals failed.

    Problem was as the EU paid 65%(i think) of construction costs and they objected.

    Whats the relation to the topic at hand again?

    BTW its only the Limerick tunnel which is tolled. the Limerick SRR is a fine piece of free road.
    BluntGuy wrote: »

    The Waterford Bypass ideally shouldn't be tolled either, but in the circumstances, it was unavoidable. Limerick Tunnel, ditto.


    I made this point at another point in this thread, it makes no sense to build a free M9 when the Citys bypass will be tolled other then to give a license to print money to a construction 'consortium'. both roads truly represent all that is negative about this Govs way of doing things.

    I would imagine the M9s AADTs will remain static in the medium term, but the N25 bypass will no doubt be utilized by the local Co.Cos planning departments to make them some money through large scale rezonings for shopping centres and commuterville estates and traffic will increase: more toll money.


  • #138
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    invincibleirish wrote: »
    I would imagine the M9s AADTs will remain static in the medium term, but the N25 bypass will no doubt be utilized by the local Co.Cos planning departments to make them some money through large scale rezonings for shopping centres and commuterville estates and traffic will increase: more toll money.

    Without wishing to de-rail this thread too much, I am really worried about what is going to happen with the N25 bypass.

    The road was originally going to go ahead as motorway AFAIK, the official documentation states it, various concessionaires state it (Dragados have the scheme down as motorway, so did CRG before they changed their website). I e-mailed the NRA twice about this, and although they gave relatively concrete answers for the other questions, this one they deliberately avoid answering.

    Their reasons are unconvincing. Tractors, cyclists, pedestrians etc. will most likely be banned from the bridge anyway, so what valid reason... sorry, motivation do the NRA and/or the council have for this?

    Well, as far as I can see, it's exactly what you said. The Grannagh roundabouts positively scream "dump shopping centre here", dump crappy "business park here", "lifeless suburbs coming soon" to corrupt councillors. The NRA have informed me that they will not allow this to happen, but after Mahon Point, I really worry about this...

    Getting back to the M9. Yes, I think the M9 should have a toll. It's only fair drivers from Waterford pay their share share for "their" (for lack of a better word) road just as Limerick, Cork and Galway drivers have to pay for "theirs". But it is S-E people's opinion I want on that...


  • #139
    E92
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,147 ✭✭✭E92


    I'm all for Waterford having their Motorway - why shouldn't they?

    I think any road linking any major population centres such as Dublin and Waterfor should be perfectly entitled to a Motorway. I accept we don't need it now per se, but undoubtedly there will come a time when we will decide we need to build a Motorway, a la the Cahir, Nenagh and Croom bypass and we will either do this by building another bypass(a la the Cahir bypass, so now we have 2 bypasses when we only ever needed one) or converting an existing one a la the Nenagh bypass and then when it is upgraded it will be to a poorer standard than the road it joins up with.

    What I am against is the fact that there is going to be no toll on this road.

    I don't think it is particularly fair on those people who are going to be using the Motorways linking Limerick, Cork, Galway Belfast even who will have to pay at least one toll, and 2 in the case of Cork and Galway, 2 also for Limerick if you decide to use the tunnel.

    Ideally there would be no tolls of course, but the money has to come from somewhere, and I've absolutely no problem paying the €1.80 for the Fermoy toll. It's a price worth paying IMO.

    OT but I also think the fact that the Waterford City bypass is not going to be a motorway is just plain wrong. It should of course by a full blown Motorway, especially as it will be built as a HQDC which is a Motorway in all but name.

    We're going to have another Mahon Point on it. I just know that that is what is going to happen. The developers are up to their eyes with the present Government, so it's not exactly hard to figure out where this will go really...


  • #140
    Bards
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭Bards


    E92 wrote: »
    I'm all for Waterford having their Motorway - why shouldn't they?

    I think any road linking any major population centres such as Dublin and Waterfor should be perfectly entitled to a Motorway. I accept we don't need it now per se, but undoubtedly there will come a time when we will decide we need to build a Motorway, a la the Cahir, Nenagh and Croom bypass and we will either do this by building another bypass(a la the Cahir bypass, so now we have 2 bypasses when we only ever needed one) or converting an existing one a la the Nenagh bypass and then when it is upgraded it will be to a poorer standard than the road it joins up with.

    What I am against is the fact that there is going to be no toll on this road.

    I don't think it is particularly fair on those people who are going to be using the Motorways linking Limerick, Cork, Galway Belfast even who will have to pay at least one toll, and 2 in the case of Cork and Galway, 2 also for Limerick if you decide to use the tunnel.

    Ideally there would be no tolls of course, but the money has to come from somewhere, and I've absolutely no problem paying the €1.80 for the Fermoy toll. It's a price worth paying IMO.

    OT but I also think the fact that the Waterford City bypass is not going to be a motorway is just plain wrong. It should of course by a full blown Motorway, especially as it will be built as a HQDC which is a Motorway in all but name.

    We're going to have another Mahon Point on it. I just know that that is what is going to happen. The developers are up to their eyes with the present Government, so it's not exactly hard to figure out where this will go really...

    There will be no toll on the M11 either. Should we ask Wexford/Wicklow drivers to pay their fare share too.


  • #141
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,551 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The M11 is, and always will be based on accesses, etc, being unlikely to be removed, a hodgepodge of low grade dualler and barely motorway though. The M9 is going to be full Type 1 motorway all the way, with a wee bit of wide median at the northern end.


  • Advertisement
  • #142
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    Bards wrote: »
    There will be no toll on the M11 either. Should we ask Wexford/Wicklow drivers to pay their fare share too.

    Maybe they should ask why the Gov. can give the go ahead to build a brand new 116km M9 but at the same time cant find the cash to build a 14km DC at Rathnew?

    You keep talking about AADTs well the Arklow south AADTs look pretty high to me?.

    You wouldnt even mind but isnt the grand plan to have the N11 dualled the whole way to Rosslare?

    2 S/E Motorways: overkill surely? how much was it is the New Ross bypass? 400m? yikes.


  • #143
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    invincibleirish wrote: »
    Maybe they should ask why the Gov. can give the go ahead to build a brand new 116km M9 but at the same time cant find the cash to built a 14km DC at Rathnew?

    You keep talking about AADTs well the Arklow south AADTs look pretty high to me?.

    You wouldnt even mind but isnt the grand plan to have the N11 dualled the whole way to Rosslare?

    2 S/E Motorways: overkill surely? how much was it is the New Ross bypass? 400m? yikes.

    The New Ross bypass, in whatever century it gets built, is apparently going to cost 1 billion euro and include a massive 900 m bridge.


  • #144
    invincibleirish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    The New Ross bypass, in whatever century it gets built, is apparently going to cost 1 billion euro and include a massive 900 m bridge.

    widget_cQB8BbwDLl5j0U7uvcnSR6.jpg


  • #145
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    invincibleirish wrote: »
    widget_cQB8BbwDLl5j0U7uvcnSR6.jpg

    Calm down Culken! :)

    This project probably won't see the light of day for another 50 years.


  • #146
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Bards wrote: »
    Q. for Cork Boardsies. do you think it is fair that the Jack Lynch Tunnel isn't tolled when other Bypasses are tolled (Limerick, Dublin, Waterford)


    It can't be tolled, it was co-financed by the EU mostly, if not completely.

    Cork has two tolls already for the M8.
    Limerick has one toll on the M7 but the Shunnel is tolled, so that would negate to two.

    But Bard's you are hilarious. when someone states a fact you don't like, you state is as opinion..................... rofl

    Your are laughable:rolleyes:


  • #147
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    invincibleirish wrote: »
    widget_cQB8BbwDLl5j0U7uvcnSR6.jpg

    Rofl:D
    But sure lets abandon, the Dublin metro or even scrap and built the New ross bypass sure why not, like the fact is Waterfords is Irelands fifth city we are needy of it. WE NEEDs this aswell.................:rolleyes:

    I'm surprised Bard's hasnt brought up a metro plan for wateferd yet, But we are so left out and we NEEED it now.

    LMFAO.


  • #148
    fricatus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Getting back to the M9. Yes, I think the M9 should have a toll. It's only fair drivers from Waterford pay their share share for "their" (for lack of a better word) road just as Limerick, Cork and Galway drivers have to pay for "theirs". But it is S-E people's opinion I want on that...

    First off, we shouldn't be paying tolls at all - why disincentivise people from using newer, better and safer roads? It's stupid! Someone said here recently that 1.25c on the litre of petrol or diesel would compensate for the removal of tolls. Why doesn't the government just do that?

    But we know they won't listen to sense, so here's my opinion taking the real-world situation into account...

    As regards the M9, I would have no problem paying a toll on it since I only travel to Dublin around 4 or 5 times a year. What I do object to is the toll on the new N25 bridge in Waterford. Anyone commuting into Waterford from south KK/WX/TS will have the "choice" of either paying a toll or clogging up the city centre, which is ridiculous.

    Ditto for the Limerick tunnel, which I believe will be tolled. (shakes head in exasperation)

    I think the fact that Waterford motorists will be charged for using the second bridge (which they will do much more often than travel to Dublin) more than makes up for the lack of a toll on the M9.

    Would people in Cork prefer to pay their tolls on the M8 or on the Jack Lynch Tunnel? Something tells me I know the answer to that question...


  • #149
    Bards
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭Bards


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    The New Ross bypass, in whatever century it gets built, is apparently going to cost 1 billion euro and include a massive 900 m bridge.

    And where may I ask did you get these figures from? Did you know that it is going to be built as a PPP?

    I have no interest for a Metro for Waterford, but I guaruntee you if Dublin do get their Metro, how long before the Langers in Lee-Side start complaining about their lack of Metro?

    The Cork Political Lobby puts the rest of the country to shame


    Back on the M9. It is being built with mixture of EU & exchequer money so it can't be tolled aparantly :rolleyes:


  • #150
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Bards wrote: »
    I have no interest for a Metro for Waterford, but I guaruntee you if Dublin do get their Metro, how long before the Langers in Lee-Side start complaining about their lack of Metro?

    As a naturalised Leeside Langer let me assure you that no one in Cork believes a metro will ever be - or should ever be - constructed for this city.


  • Advertisement
  • #151
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Bards wrote: »
    And where may I ask did you get these figures from? Did you know that it is going to be built as a PPP?

    I have no interest for a Metro for Waterford, but I guaruntee you if Dublin do get their Metro, how long before the Langers in Lee-Side start complaining about their lack of Metro?

    The Cork Political Lobby puts the rest of the country to shame


    Back on the M9. It is being built with mixture of EU & exchequer money so it can't be tolled aparantly :rolleyes:


    Get over yourself mister!


Advertisement