M9? - Is it a waste of money?

BluntGuy

The 'towns needing a bypass' thread got stolen by the whole M9 debate, so I thought I'd move it here...

What do you think about the M9? Is it a truly necessary project that will bring much-needed investment to the south-east? Or is it simply a white-elephant motorway delivered by gombeen politics?

(By the way, I am aware it is under-construction already and that no amount of debate will change that - but this is just to get people's opinions - and remove the debate from the aforementioned other thread)

Trampas

Don't use the M9 but you could nearly say that for every road.

People in Kerry and Donegal will say the M50 is a waste of money but people in Dublin, Meath, Wicklow and Kildare will say it isn't.

Bards

It would have been grosly unfair to Ireland's fifth aCity and the Entire South East Region not to have the M9 completed at the same time as the other Inter Urban routes.

If it was only done to a Wide S2 as some people would like then the same people would be giving out about bad Govt Planning and it would have cost twice as much to re-visit it within 10 years.

The other question one has to ask, Why is the current M9 not as busy as other comparable routes? It has been proven in study after study (Ask IDA Ireland) due to the fact that the existing road is so bad that it has stifled economic activity.

How else in a region that is strategically placed along the Eastern and Southern seaboard, with a deep water port (Belview) A Ro-Ro port (Rosslare)
University level Institute (WIT) that it has only attracted one or two FDI companies of any scale in the last decade compared to the other regions with comparable infrastructure

One this necessary road is in place expect the S.E to fulfill it's true potential with increased commerce adding to the Exchequer figures which will in turn pay for this Motorway countless times over.

penexpers

The N9 is one of the worst N roads I've been on and considering it's meant to link two cities together it's pretty bad. So I think it's great that the M9 is being built

road_high

penexpers wrote: »

The N9 is one of the worst N roads I've been on and considering it's meant to link two cities together it's pretty bad. So I think it's great that the M9 is being built

Hear hear. And don't forget Carlow and Kilkenny in that important link too .
I use the N9/10 everyday at rush hour between Carlow and Kilkenny and let me tell you the volume of traffic is savage.

I have to laugh when people from the 4 counties it serves directly are dismissed basically as "parochial" by people from other cities and regions that push their own area's infrastructural need ahead of the M9...of course they are not being parochial at all, masked as a supposedly greater need :rolleyes:

road_high

Some links on the project people may find useful:

http://www.kilkennycoco.ie/eng/Services/Roads/Roads_Projects/N9-N10_Kilcullen_to_Waterford_Road_Scheme/

http://n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/

http://www.transport21.ie/Projects/Roads/N9_Dublin_to_Waterford.html

invincibleirish

Bards wrote: »

It would have been grosly unfair to Ireland's fifth aCity and the Entire South East Region not to have the M9 completed at the same time as the other Inter Urban routes.

Lets deal with Numbers: the M9 corridor will service 3 urban areas: Waterford, Kilkenny & Carlow, together these areas combine around 150k. Now you are advocating building a road with a theoretical capacity of 55k AADT to service these settlements. Not only will the M9 have have low numbers on opening, it will continue to do so for the foreseeable future unless the S/E experiences the kind of population growth/sprawl and economic growth that the GDA has experienced in the past 2 decades. In otherwords not going to happen.


The idea that Waterford somehow deserves a Mway just because other cities will get one ignores obvious realities.Lets compare with the other MIUs: Cork has an urban area of 250K+, a substantial port and pretty much all of Irelands heavy industry (lots of HGVs). Even then its unlikely the M8 will become congested bar near the city itself,in otherwords the case for an M8 is tenous enough, but at least you can see it will be used and has a decent case for being built. Ditto the M1/7/

what of the M9? who and what are going to use the road? Waterfords massive industry? Its huge commuter belt? all those tourists who come into Rosslare a few times a day?

Bards wrote: »

If it was only done to a Wide S2 as some people would like then the same people would be giving out about bad Govt Planning and it would have cost twice as much to re-visit it within 10 years.

Thats if it needed to be revisited in 10 years, again i doubt it would need to be unless Waterford undergoes some kind of celtic tiger massive transformation.

Bards wrote: »

The other question one has to ask, Why is the current M9 not as busy as other comparable routes? It has been proven in study after study (Ask IDA Ireland) due to the fact that the existing road is so bad that it has stifled economic activity.

Ah you've mentioned these reports before but again i question the logic behind your point, why should the irish taxpayer pay for a road that has abolutely no business case? your philosophy is identical to the Western Development commission namely build it and they will come. My opinion is build where needed not where wanted. Besides blaming a single road for economic woes is facile, Dublin is the only example you need to see where economic development has outpaced infrastructural development.

Bards wrote: »

How else in a region that is strategically placed along the Eastern and Southern seaboard, with a deep water port (Belview) A Ro-Ro port (Rosslare)
University level Institute (WIT) that it has only attracted one or two FDI companies of any scale in the last decade compared to the other regions with comparable infrastructure

Excellent selling points im sure but meaningless, Rosslare is an underused port, the reason its underused is because its miles from any major population centre, its a perfect metaphor for what the M9 wil become.

Bards wrote: »

One this necessary road is in place expect the S.E to fulfill it's true potential with increased commerce adding to the Exchequer figures which will in turn pay for this Motorway countless times over

Again this mythical economic development will occur when the M9 is built? tell me whats going to happen? is Waterford going to experience a bubble of growth? i really think you've invested too much hope in this road, that or your trying to scramble for excuses to build it.

mike65

Message to the OP its more built than not built why would anyone stop now?

Anyway this question was posed about 3/4 years back on this forum, funnily enough it didn't stop the project.

Mike

BluntGuy

mike65 wrote: »

Message to the OP its more built than not built why would anyone stop now?

Anyway this question was posed about 3/4 years back on this forum, funnily enough it didn't stop the project.

Mike

BluntGuy wrote:

By the way, I am aware it is under-construction already and that no amount of debate will change that - but this is just to get people's opinions - and remove the debate from the aforementioned other thread

I don't think the issue being discussed was whether the M9 should stop being built now. It would be madness for ANYONE suggest that.

The debate is about whether the M9 is necessary and whether it should've gone ahead in the first place. I didn't put any bias or personal opinion into the original post, I just brought the topic here to move it from the other thread.

As for the thread 3/4 years ago, I'm sure it was very interesting. But I can't be bothered to dig it up...

road_high

mike65 wrote: »

Message to the OP its more built than not built why would anyone stop now?

Anyway this question was posed about 3/4 years back on this forum, funnily enough it didn't stop the project.

Mike

I thought the same. Just gives a chance for posters who want to bash the south east again the perfect oppurtunity. Debate is irrelevant now that it's more than half built at this stage.

JupiterKid

I don't think anyone in their right mind could argue against upgrading the existing N9, which between Gowran and Waterford is an utter disgrace for a developed country. It is clear that the appaling state of the N9 stifled investment into the Southeast, sure isn't Thomastown virtually impassable for HGVs, meaning that they have to divert via Kilkenny?

That said, it can be argued that perhaps the M9 motorway as being built was a bit over-spec. But I believe it's a vital artery for the South East, and will finally give Waterford city the chance to grow properly. Waterford has been the slowest growing of ALL the Irish regional cities, and stands in stark contrast to Galway city.

In 1961, Waterford City had a population of 28,000. That same year, Galway city had a population of just 22,000, substantially less than Waterford. By 2006, Waterford had a little over 46,000 and Galway had mushroomed to 73,000. It's apparent that Waterford was stifled and held back and poor transport connectivity must have been a factor in this.

So IMO the M9 might be a bit over spec (especially compared to what would be done in the UK where dualling and some bypassing would have been policy) but welcome nonetheless.

mike65

Just to continue, the M9 is easy to defend - infrastructure is the bedrock of wealth creation - the SE region is the second poorest in the state on a per capita basis. Waterford has had the ****ty end of the stick from Dublins based civil servants, planners, politicans for decades with the inevitable result. We are like church mice relativly speaking. A proper road is a future proofed road. May we all get richer (now if only we could get something done about railways, water sewage, third level education etc)

Mike

BluntGuy

mfitzy wrote: »

I thought the same. Just gives a chance for posters who want to bash the south east again the perfect oppurtunity. Debate is irrelevant now that it's more than half built at this stage.

Would you rather they bashed it in a thread which is about something else?

This isn't just an oppurtunity for people who disagree with the project to voice their opinions, but an oppurtunity for those who support it to defend their opinion.

I support the construction of the M9 (to a lesser extent than the M8, M7 - I'll admit - that's why I voted 'impartial'), but I acknowledge the reasons people might have against it.

And may I re-iterate - I did say in my original post:

I am aware it is under-construction already and that no amount of debate will change that.

I said it specifically to avoid comments such as "the debate is irrelevant now". Maybe so, but people still want to argue the case for how it should've been handled, or why it was correct to be handled in the manner it was.

I didn't create this thread as a "tool" for "posters who want to bash the south east", if that's what you're thinking...

Oh yes, one more thing to add to mfitzy's list of M9 resources, it's the wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M9_motorway_(Ireland)

Guess who created that.

BluntGuy

JupiterKid wrote:

In 1961, Waterford City had a population of 28,000. That same year, Galway city had a population of just 22,000, substantially less than Waterford. By 2006, Waterford had a little over 46,000 and Galway had mushroomed to 73,000. It's apparent that Waterford was stifled and held back and poor transport connectivity must have been a factor in this.

Absolutely correct.

But was it the largest factor?

road_high

JupiterKid wrote: »

I don't think anyone in their right mind could argue against upgrading the existing N9, which between Gowran and Waterford is an utter disgrace for a developed country. It is clear that the appaling state of the N9 stifled investment into the Southeast, sure isn't Thomastown virtually impassable for HGVs, meaning that they have to divert via Kilkenny?

.

Absolutely. The road is a complete shambles and does not bare comparison with any of the other N roads in this country. It is of R-road standard for the main part.
Of course those that don't use the road ever don't want to hear this sad truth and frankly don't care. Too busy pushing their own regional agendas ahead of the M9 all the while hypocritically slamming the M9 as a parochial white elephant. Give these people a week commuting between Waterford & Kilkenny on the current "road" and see then what they think about the M9..

invincibleirish

To the posters spoofing on about how this should not be up for debate here's the reality; The country is out of boom times there are limited finances, in the next 1/2 years when the full effects of new economic realities hit, this governments largesse when it came to spending taxpayers money will become more evident. Over on the Bypass thread i mentioned the M9 specifically because most of those bypasses wont be built for at least 5/10 years at least whilst projects like the M9 in its entirety will be built, opened and under used whilst gridlock will continue elsewhere, this time there won't be any money to remedy this.


Its a question of value for money as a taxpayer, the M9 is but another example of the Government wasting money thats whys it an issue now and for the future.

road_high

BluntGuy wrote: »

Absolutely correct.

But was it the largest factor?

Had to be a major factor. I have heard of several businesses (through hearsay, admittadly) that did not bother with Waterford because of the poor link to Dublin, despite being the closest of the regional cities to the capital.

It's kind of like a domino effect. Poor road access has a knock effect i=on all types of investment. Dublin is where it's at as regards the Irish economy.
With access as bad as the N9 to the capital it is no wonder the south east fell behind.

mike65

Waterford also lost a major player due to limited power capacity to the city (as another example of infrastruture shortfall) as I recall.

Mike

invincibleirish

mike65 wrote: »

Just to continue, the M9 is easy to defend - infrastructure is the bedrock of wealth creation

This is the stick all regional lobbies run with when justifying their particular white elephant, that infrastructure creates wealth. Fallacy of course, good sensible planning equals growth not plonking down Mways in the empty countryside in the vague hope its going to suddenly stimulate a particulr local economy.

road_high

invincibleirish wrote: »

To the posters spoofing on about how this should not be up for debate here's the reality; The country is out of boom times there are limited finances, in the next 1/2 years when the full effects of new economic realities hit, this governments largesse when it came to spending taxpayers money will become more evident. Over on the Bypass thread i mentioned the M9 specifically because most of those bypasses wont be built for at least 5/10 years at least whilst projects like the M9 in its entirety will be built, opened and under used whilst gridlock will continue elsewhere, this time there won't be any money to remedy this.


Its a question of value for money as a taxpayer, the M9 is but another example of the Government wasting money thats whys it an issue now and for the future.

Why single out the M9?? Surely sections of the M8 which were of a far superior quality to anything on the current N9 such as that between Cahir and Mitchelstown for instance could also have waited. Ditto the N6 between Ballinasloe & Athlone.

mike65

invincibleirish you are such a card.

Mike

Zoney

For a start, the M9 up to the N10 junction has sufficient traffic that given even a slow increase in the next few years, dual carriageway at least would be required in the short term. Considering the upgrade to the rest of the N9 will put even more traffic onto the northern section, it's pretty sensible to build a simple rural two lane motorway.

As for the southern section, I think current traffic levels are not much to go by - the route is surely bad enough to discourage commerce let alone random trips. The point is that Waterford and the southeast *should* have commerce enough to fill a motorway with traffic.

invincibleirish

mfitzy wrote: »

Why single out the M9?? Surely sections of the M8 which were of a far superior quality to anything on the current N9 such as that between Cahir and Mitchelstown for instance could also have waited. Ditto the N6 between Ballinasloe & Athlone.

I have argued the same, sections of the interurbans could have waited whilst upgrades like the SRR & Newlands X went ahead, but also that the MIUs were badly planned out initially, but thats an argument for another hread.

mysterious

This save the southeast has nothing got to do with this.

It's UTTER BS.........
Mitzy and other's get off it.


Point being.
M9 had got TWO schemes starting in the one year! No one with a right mind in any country would of allowed that **** to go on, when many areas of the country need attention.

This me Vs you **** has got to stop.
This poor me Waterford has also got to stop.
This and but has got to stop.
This but it's not fair has got to stop.




The fact is, Like any region, Waterford gets it's fair share of road investment. Some are winners and some are losers in this political game, like every region. And every region has their fare share of sh!t and problem's. So let's get off this "save our region" It's not going to get us anywhere, and it didn't on previous threads!

Waterford has done extremely well under Cullen's time of Minister for transport. In fact many schemes were put back or moved to a later date, to allow Cullens personal transport agenda to take fold. Which it did.

The M9 was to start later than the N6/7/9 originally and rightly so, it should be. Cullen changed this and put the focus on the N9 purely. It was fuking absurd thing to do. The Nenagh Limerick scheme for example was meant to start in 2005,(along many other's) but it was delayed for the Waterford to south Kilkenny scheme to get the go ahead over the bigger road the N7. There is nothing logical or rational to this.

Point being I will say it again. No one on here is begrudging the S-E getting its M9. No one is saying halt the road.

But.... What we are saying. OTHER roads that were and are more a priority, SHOULD of gotten the go ahead FIRST over schemes such as the M9. Not the other way around.
END OF STORY.

Like any other MIU. None of the roads should have gotten two schemes on the same route to go to tender at the same time. None of the larger N routes got this kind of special treatment. It is not logical to start a complete whole N route route in just two years. It's not a sensible thing to do, especially given the tight finances. The N7 was put behind the N9 in order of Cullens priorities, not actual real priorities of course, just his. This is just not acceptable by any means. N9 did however get the special treatment. No region deserves special treatment.

Mr.Cullen obviously didn't potray the role as minister for transport, because he didn't do the job that was expected of been minister for transport. His goal was obviously forget schemes that were already badly needed. The protrayal he gave was put a blind eye to the current transport needs of the country and put Waterford first and for the sake of the M9. That is what he did, and that's is what he will be remembered as when he was minister for transport. This is not my idea of been a minister for transport. He's a mindless fool.

Because of this idiotic white elephant planning. We are now in a bigger financial mess. Mr. Cullen is well known for getting the finances into a mess anyhu.


The N20 and Newlands cross are suspended now for the sake of a stupd race to allow the entire M9 to be finished for the sake of 2010.It does not need to be finished by 2010, given the fact we now have every finished Miu cramming into Newlands cross in two years. Great planning altoghter eh.

One of the N9 sections WAS NOT EVEN A PRIORITY, and defenately not a priority over the N20 + Newlands for example. That is the facts here. Everyone on this thread will have to deal with this reality.

Its a fuking joke, and you all know it.

The south east folks here, are the ones, who need to get real here, considering the current economic climate ffs. This government can't get anything right unless they fuk up a bagillion times, with people like me telling them to stop fuking up..............

BluntGuy

mfitzy wrote: »

Why single out the M9?? Surely sections of the M8 which were of a far superior quality to anything on the current N9 such as that between Cahir and Mitchelstown for instance could also have waited. Ditto the N6 between Ballinasloe & Athlone.

Good point (and I regularly use the M8)...

If I was to delay any scheme on the M9 (presuming of course that it was all going to be built), it would've been the northern section. It's better in quality than the southern section and far less dangerous. (And let's face it, I doubt many parts of the M9 are being built on the basis of traffic levels - with the exception of the Carlow bypass)...

But here is an interesting fact. The EIS for the Waterford Bypass states that the M9 near Mullinavat (part of the southern-section) will have a predicted AADT of 18,900 which is more than most parts of the other MUIs. It's not surprising though, areas close to cities generally have higher AADTs then other parts.

Some have argued that the fairest way to do it would've been to build one M9 scheme this year and allow another scheme (N11, Newlands X) to go ahead. I certainally think that would've been fair. The atrocious state of the N9 wouldn't have been getting ignored, but another important scheme could've gone ahead spreading funds more evenly (although as you argue, funds haven't been spread evenly previously for the S.E).

mike65

No one on here is begrudging the S-E getting its M9.

Well thats not true (ask invincibleirish)

This government can't get anything right unless they fuk up a bagillion times, with people like me telling them to stop fuking up..............

Who are you? and why might the government listen to you?

Mike

invincibleirish

mike65 wrote: »

Well thats not true (ask invincibleirish)



Who are you? and why might the government listen to you?

Mike

Stop trolling FFS, my qualm is with the manner in which the M9 got the go ahead and whether resources could have been better utilised.

mike65

Originally Posted by mike65
Just to continue, the M9 is easy to defend - infrastructure is the bedrock of wealth creation

Originally Posted by invincibleirish
This is the stick all regional lobbies run with when justifying their particular white elephant, that infrastructure creates wealth. Fallacy of course

So local or indeed national economies can flourish without infrastructure?

Mike

invincibleirish

mike65 wrote: »

So local or indeed national economies can flourish without infrastructure?

Mike

Did i say that? nope.

mike65

infrastructure creates wealth. Fallacy of course

?

Mike

Frankie Lee

An example last week of the benefits of the M9 happened in Carlow when Merck Sharp & Dohme deicided to locate there with the result of 170 jobs.
This would not have happened if there was no motorway connection to Dublin.