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M9? - Is it a waste of money?
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The amount of crapology here; of course the locals aren't going to listen to facts and figures. You're wasting your time here.0
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Mike
Whats wrong with you? the bit of my qoute you deleted was where i clarified that statement
Let me quote myself fully:This is the stick all regional lobbies run with when justifying their particular white elephant, that infrastructure creates wealth. Fallacy of course, good sensible planning equals growth not plonking down Mways in the empty countryside in the vague hope its going to suddenly stimulate a particulr local economy.
Now unless you're going to refrain from insulting moi or using selective quoting to misrepresent my position may i suggest you run along back to the Soccer forum or wherever else you hang out?0 -
Frankie Lee wrote: »An example last week of the benefits of the M9 happened in Carlow when Merck Sharp & Dohme deicided to locate there with the result of 170 jobs.
This would not have happened if there was no motorway connection to Dublin.
Very true and exactly the kind of effect the M9 will have. And 170 high quality jobs, exactly what the south east has been crying out for. Hopefully it will prove a catalyst for further such development to come. Servier in south Kilkenny mentioned the M9 too when they decided to build.
Multinationals will not look at places without good road links. End of.0 -
Very true and exactly the kind of effect the M9 will have. And 170 high quality jobs, exactly what the south east has been crying out for. Hopefully it will prove a catalyst for further such development to come. Servier in south Kilkenny mentioned the M9 too when they decided to build.
Multinationals will not look at places without good road links. End of.
Mfitzy every region is "crying" out for investment.
But even in this small country. We do need to try and put things into perspective and look at the bigger picture. We need to look at the economics of any country.Some regions do better than others, and that's a fact of life. You need to get over this "but me Waterford"
To be honest, the west I think are quiet incomparison, to the way you behave and nitpick at times. Really.
The fact is, Waterford is a smaller city. It get's treated like a smaller city.
Deal with it.(Considering Waterford has gotten alot of investment lately) I'm sure people are laughing at the idiocy of you and the locals are protraying here.
Like a village rally "I want my blue road and I want it now"0 -
Your logic means Dublin/Pale will eat Ireland.
Mike0 -
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mysterious wrote: »Mfitzy every region is "crying" out for investment.
But even in this small country. We do need to try and put things into perspective and look at the bigger picture. We need to look at the economics of any country.Some regions do better than others, and that's a fact of life. You need to get over this "but me Waterford"
To be honest, the west I think are quiet incomparison, to the way you behave and nitpick at times. Really.
The fact is, Waterford is a smaller city. It get's treated like a smaller city.
Deal with it.(Considering Waterford has gotten alot of investment lately) I'm sure people are laughing at the idiocy of you and the locals are protraying here.
Like a village rally "I want my blue road and I want it now"
The idea of core and periphery regions means nowt obviously down Waterford way.0 -
Was it not Government policy to complete the inter urban motorway network, including the M9, before most other projects? (originally 2006/7)Is it not true that all the inter urbans will have been upgraded by 2010/11 and we will have major national primary routes from Dublin, built to a high standard? Is that so bad?
Listen lads, I get the angst over the awarding of contracts on the M9. I hear the arguments over a road bringing wealth to a region. (Believe me, it does it quicker than a railway would ever do it.) I fully appreciate how other towns urgently require bypasses, but it can't be piecemeal of patchwork in its introduction. But, if we really want to examine priorities and how there is a complete lack of focus on them, all we have to do is read some of this thread and see the oft quoted references to "politics". Unfortunetly a PR political system is bad for most things. Feck the M9, its on the way and has some national importance. My biggest gripe is how grade seperation on the N4 at Lucan got priority over Newlands cross and the M3 is sucking funds/resources from elsewhere. The M9 is definetly not the enemy.
The bottom line here, though, is the fact that our poltical system does not allow for a coherent, relevent, structured and prioritised plan for the development of transport infrastructure. The M9 is just another spot on a rash infected arse.0 -
I have never voted FF. Never.
Mike0 -
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to quote Mysterious from a recent thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055414215
"NRA people, before going to bed, your 11th commandment is. I shall not forget to future proof our roads and infastruture"
Erh, Isn't this what the NRA are doing with the M90 -
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The fact is, Waterford is a smaller city. It get's treated like a smaller city.
Working from this point, the bigger you are the more you "deserve" so the weak get weaker relative to the largest city which of course is Dublin, the capital is already acting like a blackhole sucking in investment and resources which is why it and its hinterland have such a high per capita income compared to the rest of the country esp the SE and NW.
What the country needs is balanced growth that requires what is at times disproportionate investment in specific regions to stop the skewing towards the "centre".
I realise Dubs will snort at this citing shocking infrastructure deficits in the capital, I would say - true. Thats what happens when the regions are underfed - Dublin gets bloated.
Mike0 -
to quote Mysterious from a recent thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055414215
"NRA people, before going to bed, your 11th commandment is. I shall not forget to future proof our roads and infastruture"
Erh, Isn't this what the NRA are doing with the M9
Whats with the Wafurd folk and trying to misrepresent what people say on this thread, that link has nothing to do with the issue at hand.0 -
Folks, chill out.0
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Waterford and the south east should have the same quality of infrastructure as every other region. The west and the mid-west have smaller populations, and in the case of the west a much smaller population density.
The fact that there may be less traffic between Waterford and Dublin than Galway and Dublin is systematic of the fact that the local economy in Galway is far more vibrant than the Waterford economy, for a whole host of reasons, which there is no need to get into here. The fact of the matter is, Waterford is one of the principal urban areas in the state and the regional capital of one of the most populous regions of the country. The people of this region quite rightly demand a level of infrastructure provision that is comensurate with the size of the population of the region.
Road usage statistics, while a useful tool for justifying inequitable infrastructure provision, on the back of years of previous inequitable infrastructure provision and investment, does not change this.0 -
Waterford and the south east should have the same quality of infrastructure as every other region. The west and the mid-west have smaller populations, and in the case of the west a much smaller population density.
The fact that there may be less traffic between Waterford and Dublin than Galway and Dublin is systematic of the fact that the local economy in Galway is far more vibrant than the Waterford economy, for a whole host of reasons, which there is no need to get into here. The fact of the matter is, Waterford is one of the principal urban areas in the state and the regional capital of one of the most populous regions of the country. The people of this region quite rightly demand a level of infrastructure provision that is comensurate with the size of the population of the region.
Road usage statistics, while a useful tool for justifying inequitable infrastructure provision, on the back of years of previous inequitable infrastructure provision and investment, does not change this.
This is incomprehensible, essentially you argue for infrastructure provision on the basis of want over need. You make out Waterford and the S/E is some kind of major urban area, it isnt. The M9 wont make it so either.
Road usage statistics, while you may not like them for obvious reasons, are a reliable indicator of how many people are actually going to use the new road. parts of the N9 have 6k AADT, meaning that with the advent of the M9, whole sections of the M9 will have tiny traffic figures.
Lets be generous and assume that traffic increases by 25% on opening of the M9, sections will still struggle to even break into 5 figure AADTs, madness! there are literally dozens of projects on the NRAs to do list which will replace/upgrade roads which carry well in excess of what a lot of the N/M9 carries.0 -
invincibleirish wrote: »This is incomprehensible, essentially you argue for infrastructure provision on the basis of want over need. You make out Waterford and the S/E is some kind of major urban area, it isnt. The M9 wont make it so either.
Road usage statistics, while you may not like them for obvious reasons, are a reliable indicator of how many people are actually going to use the new road. parts of the N9 have 6k AADT, meaning that with the advent of the M9, whole sections of the M9 will have tiny traffic figures.
Lets be generous and assume that traffic increases by 25% on opening of the M9, sections will still struggle to even break into 5 figure AADTs, madness! there are literally dozens of projects on the NRAs to do list which will replace/upgrade roads which carry well in excess of what a lot of the N/M9 carries.
Well like I said before, the M9 near Mullinivat (according to the N25 Waterford Bypass EIS) will carry 18,500 vehicles daily (the bridge apparently will carry 37,000 vehicles daily - I figure I doubt - I predicted 20,000 to 25,000). However, the 18,500, while it seems very high compared to many of the predictions I've heard, does not surprise me as it is the area closest to the city (therefore it would get a lot of usage).
Maybe if Waterford-Knocktopher had been done along with the Carlow bypass and one of the M9 schemes delayed while another scheme in a different part of the country went ahead, there wouldn't be such a controversy. What do you think?0 -
Working from this point, the bigger you are the more you "deserve" so the weak get weaker relative to the largest city which of course is Dublin, the capital is already acting like a blackhole sucking in investment and resources which is why it and its hinterland have such a high per capita income compared to the rest of the country esp the SE and NW.
What the country needs is balanced growth that requires what is at times disproportionate investment in specific regions to stop the skewing towards the "centre".
I realise Dubs will snort at this citing shocking infrastructure deficits in the capital, I would say - true. Thats what happens when the regions are underfed - Dublin gets bloated.
Mike
the GDA is the main economic engine of the country. Its paying for the M9, arguments for diverting resources from Dublin to the regions to try and encourage 'balanced' development are as old as the state itself but always, ALWAYS lead to the same outcome; Dublin suffers an infrastructure deficit, and over spec under used infrastructure gets built in the middle of nowhere.
As for the concept of regional development itself. This phrase is oft cited for people justifying their particular project, but the reality is simple, if this country adopted a serious policy of balanced development then it would entail concentrating spending in one or two areas outside of the GDA in order to develop critical mass, problem is this policy could never be implemented as the outcry from places who have an over developed sense of entitlement would cry blue murder.0 -
Well like I said before, the M9 near Mullinivat (according to the N25 Waterford Bypass EIS) will carry 18,500 vehicles daily (the bridge apparently will carry 37,000 vehicles daily - I figure I doubt - I predicted 20,000 to 25,000). However, the 18,500, while it seems very high compared to many of the predictions I've heard, does not surprise me as it is the area closest to the city (therefore it would get a lot of usage).
Maybe if Waterford-Knocktopher had been done along with the Carlow bypass and one of the M9 schemes delayed while another scheme in a different part of the country went ahead, there wouldn't be such a controversy. What do you think?
Agreed, Waterford-Knocktopher needs an upgrade, thats not the issue,my point all along which has been better expressed by Mysterious, is that the the Building of the entire M9 in one go essentially and how this came to be reeks of corruption/gombeenism whatever. And the losers are projects more needed which will struggle for funding in the years to come.0 -
Waterford and the south east should have the same quality of infrastructure as every other region. The west and the mid-west have smaller populations, and in the case of the west a much smaller population density.
This is misinterpreted and out of context!
Firstly we are talking about a motorway, this motorway does NOT catch the entire population of the SE. In fact the SE have Three roads coming from Dublin to the region. N11, N25 and N81.
Stop making irrelevant and incoherent non facts to try back up your claim's for glorified motorways to the SE to match the bigger urban centres etc. It's pathetic!
The fact of this matter.
The West and Midwest have bigger cities and bigger catchments than the SE. The N7/N6/N8 are more important routes and busier than the N9. No one is saying that the SE should not have high quality roads, you just have to get off this "poor me Waterford" nonsense again, just to remind you.
Other major routes have got the back bench to allow a complete M9 to be built instead. all the funds from other coffers and road projects have went under red, for this political white elephant planning. All for just this 2010 race to complete the MIUs. That is absurd. It was absurd to allow the whole M9 to be built under 2 years. The M9 got special treatment, and it was illogical and a very uneconomical thing to do under the current economic climate.
So less of this fannying crapology about which pork pie is bigger than the next. and which pork pie should get the most ingredients for the pastry.
The N9 is the least buisest of all the inter urbans. So your woefully wrong in saying that the SE deserves a better/same shepards pie than any other region. This is illogical.
These rants are petty and pointless.
Deal with the facts please.The fact that there may be less traffic between Waterford and Dublin than Galway and Dublin is systematic of the fact that the local economy in Galway is far more vibrant than the Waterford economy, for a whole host of reasons, which there is no need to get into here. The fact of the matter is, Waterford is one of the principal urban areas in the state and the regional capital of one of the most populous regions of the country. The people of this region quite rightly demand a level of infrastructure provision that is comensurate with the size of the population of the region.
We are talking about a route, not one of the most populous regions in Ireland, the M9 does not serve the entire SE. So stop it already.
No one is arguing your point in that the SE should get good quality infastructure, but things have to priotised in a list of order and needs. Every region demands alot of things, doesn't mean you get it.
Fact again is, TWO of the M9 schemes should of not been allowed to go ahead last year under the economic climate and for now give way to stalling all other projects because of this really stupid decision.
None of the Interurbans got TWO schemes started in one year, even in the 2005 -07 boom times.
Limerick for example: has only two schemes Portlaoise -Castletown and Nenagh to Limerick build contracts. It has taken 4 in a half years for the entire route to be completed up until 2010.
Because of political madness we now have the M9 route built in less than two years. The SE also have many sections of the N11 upgraded also in this time being. As a result of this sharp dive into the funds for a fast built M9 (which was not logically justified as we all know), we now have Newlands cross being stalled and other road projects such as N20 and N18 too. These routes are as equally as important as the M9. Why should the M9 get all the money only??
This is like, diverting the N7 projects to only completing the N8, leaving the N7 completley left underfunded. This would be insane planning of course.
This type of planning and spending, is just crazy. Now other routes are suffering big time as a result. Newlands cross should of been prioritised last year not the Low traffic section of N9!!!!!!!!!
Chew on my facts if you like, but you can't change facts...0 -
mysterious wrote: »This is misinterpreted and out of context!
Firstly we are talking about a motorway, this motorway does NOT catch the entire population of the SE. In fact the SE have Three roads coming from Dublin to the region. N11, N25 and N81.
Stop making irrelevant and incoherent non facts to try back up your claim's for glorified motorways to the SE to match the bigger urban centres etc. It's pathetic!
The fact of this matter.
The West and Midwest have bigger cities and bigger catchments than the SE. The N7/N6/N8 are more important routes and busier than the N9. No one is saying that the SE should not have high quality roads, you just have to get off this "poor me Waterford" nonsense again, just to remind you.
Other major routes have got the back bench to allow a complete M9 to be built instead. all the funds from other coffers and road projects have went under red, for this political white elephant planning. All for just this 2010 race to complete the MIUs. That is absurd. It was absurd to allow the whole M9 to be built under 2 years. The M9 got special treatment, and it was illogical and a very uneconomical thing to do under the current economic climate.
So less of this fannying crapology about which pork pie is bigger than the next. and which pork pie should get the most ingredients for the pastry.
The N9 is the least buisest of all the inter urbans. So your woefully wrong in saying that the SE deserves a better/same shepards pie than any other region. This is illogical.
These rants are petty and pointless.
Deal with the facts please.
We are talking about a route, not one of the most populous regions in Ireland, the M9 does not serve the entire SE. So stop it already.
No one is arguing your point in that the SE should get good quality infastructure, but things have to priotised in a list of order and needs. Every region demands alot of things, doesn't mean you get it.
Fact again is, TWO of the M9 schemes should of not been allowed to go ahead last year under the economic climate and for now give way to stalling all other projects because of this really stupid decision.
None of the Interurbans got TWO schemes started in one year, even in the 2005 -07 boom times.
Limerick for example: has only two schemes Portlaoise -Castletown and Nenagh to Limerick build contracts. It has taken 4 in a half years for the entire route to be completed up until 2010.
Because of political madness we now have the M9 route built in less than two years. The SE also have many sections of the N11 upgraded also in this time being. As a result of this sharp dive into the funds for a fast built M9 (which was not logically justified as we all know), we now have Newlands cross being stalled and other road projects such as N20 and N18 too. These routes are as equally as important as the M9. Why should the M9 get all the money only??
This is like, diverting the N7 projects to only completing the N8, leaving the N7 completley left underfunded. This would be insane planning of course.
This type of planning and spending, is just crazy. Now other routes are suffering big time as a result. Newlands cross should of been prioritised last year not the Low traffic section of N9!!!!!!!!!
Chew on my facts if you like, but you can't change facts...
Carlow Bypass - Phase 1. Started in May 2006
Waterford - Knocktopher - Phase 2 Started in February 2007
Carlow Bypass - Kilcullen Phase 3 Started in February 2008
Knocktopher - Carlow Bypass - Phase 4 Started in February 2008 (16,368 AADT on this section)
http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N09-12.htm
Phase 1. was completed in Jul 2008
Phase 2 will be completed in May 2009
Phase 3 & 4 will be completed before end of 2010
This means that it will have taken 4 and a half years to complete the M9/M10 Motorway not the TWO which you keep harping on about
These are the facts
have a look at the following data
M7 data at Moneygall (AADT 13,140)
http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N07-10.htm
N6 atKilkreel (AADT 10,958)
http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N06-11.htm
N8 Mitchelstown (AADT 16,265)
http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N08-9.htm
from your logic the N6 N7 & N8 shouldn't be built either.
In any event the people have spoken, the road is being built and according to this poll over 60% agree that it was the right thing to do0 -
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invincibleirish wrote: »:rolleyes: its a simple question thats relevant to the topic at hand, no need to get so tasty. I take it thats a yes you will be voting FF btw.
Please tell me how I voted or am going to vote is relevant to the topic at hand - Are you going to play the ball or the person?0 -
And to you and the other naysayers, again we know the M9 is being built. That was acknowledged by the OP and reaffirmed several times in the thread despite our S/E cousins seemingly wanting no debate, we're still allowed to discuss the ramifications of the M9 decision and the fog of gombeen man politics that shrouds it.0
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invincibleirish wrote: »I just asked a simple Q thats all, you dont have to answer if you dont want to, im just curious as to whether folks supportive of the M9 are also supportive of the Government generally thats all.
I ignored the first request on the original thread, you asked again many posts back (#37), seeing as you asked a third time and couldn't get the hint, I feel I had to respond and it is Irrelevant to the topic and an oppurtunity for you to throw mud, so don't ask again
This is not what he said. He got his facts completly wrong, and let Mysterious respond to his own posts.BTW the entire M9 got the go ahead for construction in 2 years, thats what Mysterious was referring to.
http://www.n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/project-programme.htm
Can you count. The figures I got from the NRA website are all less than the one on the N9 at Loughlin BridgeAs for the AADTs you posted, you do realise that those are higher numbers then similar sections of the N9, really you're proving my POV rather then you're own?.
What ramifications would that be? Are you afraid of increased economic prosperity in the S.E? Less road deaths?And to you and the other naysayers, again we know the M9 is being built. That was acknowledged by the OP and reaffirmed several times in the thread despite our S/E cousins seemingly wanting no debate, we're still allowed to discuss the ramifications of the M9 decision and the fog of gombeen man politics that shrouds it.0 -
I ignored the first request on the original thread, you asked again many posts back (#37), seeing as you asked a third time and couldn't get the hint, I feel I had to respond and it is Irrelevant to the topic and an oppurtunity for you to throw mud, so don't ask again
As i said you didn't have to answer, because you decide it isn't relevant doesn't make it so, so i'll ask if i i like. this thread is about the M9, which is part of the Governments IU construction programme, i consider this to be an ill thought out policy and symptomatic of this Govs bad policy making in general.I would like to know if those who support the M9 are supportive of the Gov in general or do they see the M9 as a special exception and if so why.This is not what he said. He got his facts completly wrong, and let Mysterious respond to his own posts.
http://www.n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/project-programme.htm
Fair enough, let him do so.Can you count. The figures I got from the NRA website are all less than the one on the N9 at Loughlin Bridge
Only with a calculator. Those figures are all also well in excess of the 6k vehicles that of the AADTs at Mullinavat. Look if we're just going to argue over AADTs all day lets do so:
Newlands X
Cork SRR upgrades
Claregalway
These 3 projects alone outnumber current N9 AADTs, if these 3 projects were built now with money spent on the M9 a the multiplier effect on the national economy would be far greater.What ramifications would that be? Are you afraid of increased economic prosperity in the S.E? Less road deaths?
Cop on be serious, Bards when will you and your ilk stop taking things so personally?
You want ramifications? simple, as gridlock increases in all our cities huge money is spent on pork barrel projects ala WRC & M9. Now money is running out we cannot afford to maintain spending levels .but still there is a huge backlog of public transport and road projects in limbo. Meanwhile we'll have lots of Motorways around the country and especially in the SE. Really what i preach is best value for money, and that the M9 money could have been spent more efficiently.0 -
invincibleirish wrote: »Cop on be serious, Bards when will you and your ilk stop taking things so personally?
when you and your ilk stop trying to deny the S.E Infrastrucutre that is necessary0 -
Off Topic Posting
This is an example of backseat moderation and which will get you an infraction if you try it again. Please report posts that you think are not in keeping with the charter.invincibleirish wrote: »:rolleyes: its a simple question thats relevant to the topic at hand, no need to get so tasty. I take it thats a yes you will be voting FF btw.
This is an example of an off topic post. His voting intentions are irrelevant to the discussion in hand. If you need to know them to counter his position in thread, then you've lost already.
Look, I realise that the question of infrastructural investment is key to the future of this country, however, a debate can be had on the subject without griping about people's voting intentions.
It is far too prevalent in this country to say "if you vote this party, that is your fault" without actually understanding that people vote on a whole range of matters which may or may not be relevant to the subject in hand. Unless of course you think the country is best served by single issue voting - oh wait - we'd have an army of independent TDs then, wouldn't we?
You want to talk about the M9, be my guest. But the two of you will either have a constructive discussion on M9 and plans for it or take holidays from the forum. Broadening it to include the entire infrastructural package so to justify asking someone how they will vote is really not kosher.
In other words, Bards, you report posts instead of doing a bit of backseat moderation and you, invincibleirish will learn the difference between harping on about someone's voting intentions and infrastructure.
This is a second in thread warning - I see Victor has one in the thread too. Now usually, at this point I'd be closing a thread particularly if I think it is likely to die anyway. Threads about specific routes are an exception because of their nature. So you can either chill out and talk about the route in question, or you will both be taking a holiday.
I'll repeat this in simple terms:
1) no backseat medding
2) no thread derailing.
In other words, M9 okay, but going on about other people's voting intentions is off topic and backseat modding is not acceptable.
return to normal business.0 -
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I'll yet again point out that the M9, like the other interurbans, was originally supposed to have been finished by 2006. That date should have been stuck to, as with inflation and the construction boom the way it was, prices were going up rapidly.
If these routes had been finished by 2006, we would not be having this argument because Newlands and the M20 would be well underway.
Who is responsible? Well, who has been in power for a decade of boom times?0 -
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I'll yet again point out that the M9, like the other interurbans, was originally supposed to have been finished by 2006.
I don't think the 2006 date was realistic, you have to ramp up these things. Trying to do it all too quickly would certainly have increased construction inflation.0
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