Are Athiests evil?

rockbeer · 10-12-2008 01:37PM

CDfm wrote: »

Whoa- Ebeneezer

Its Christmastime even for an atheist like you.You can pretend its Winterval.

Just cos AH isnt getting any presents doesnt mean you wont:D

I'm hoping for some gold, frankincense and myrrh. Well, actually, if that sounds a bit greedy I'll just settle for the gold

bush Baby · 10-12-2008 04:15PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

Maybe you could point out where Christians on this list have said we should not do the things you commend here?

The second post in the thread for starters! Something along the lines of "leave us Christians alone" - cracking start!

Quoting scripture - which incidentally is not very helpful to an Atheist who hasn't read the bible (I'm guessing) - Very ecumenical indeed

Third, the question asked was "Are Atheists evil?" Direct quotes from scripture may be blindingly obvious to some but to an Atheist, its like saying verse xyz says you're indeed evil so kill yourself now. Or not.....

Indeed some have been very understanding but in the main, for a thread about Christianity, it leaves a lot to be desired does it not? If you can't see my point, you have the right to not agree. But if only one iis unchristian, then his values must be in question

miss no stars · 10-12-2008 06:05PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello miss!
I'm not sure how to define it but I would suggest that any deliberate going against/rejection of God's will, could be described as evil. Although evil does have connotations of extreme moral "wrongness". I don't know whether an act has to be extreme for it to be evil.

When we speak of "fear" of God, it's not a quaking in your boots type of fear that makes you want to run away from God. It "holy fear" which involves a realization that our ultimate destiny (heaven/hell) depends on God's judgment of our lives and that every act/thought we do/think is either in accordance with God's will or it's not. It's about realizing how "small" we are compared with God's majesty. This fear should not result in us being afraid of God but in our trusting in His providence.

Ok the fear bit makes a little bit more sense, especially if you compare it to how small we are in the greater picture of the universe. Actually, for an "Atheist"*, I suppose my tendencies are almost religious as I would have already known that, except for the fact that I would have thought of humanity and what it's doing as being small in terms of what the universe was doing (for example, global warming vs universal cooling)

On the "Evil" issue, say an atheist was living a good life and following closely what? the ten commandments? (is that god's will?), barring of course the ones about worshiping the Lord etc. They're just as moral and as good as their christian neighbour, the only difference being that they don't happen to believe in a god. Does the lack of belief in god constitute a rejection of god's will?

(btw, I'm not trying to shred your personal beliefs or anything! I know sometimes the atheist-believer debates can sometimes end up in a slagging match and I hate seeing that as people have as much right to believe and be respected for doing so as they have to not believe and be respected for doing so).

* I say "Atheist" in "" because tbh, I think the term has too many connotations of aggressive anti-theism rather than just atheism. I also happen to consider myself to be a highly moral person, and from where I sit, a lot of people consider atheism to be connected with amorality.

kelly1 · 10-12-2008 06:54PM

miss no stars wrote: »

On the "Evil" issue, say an atheist was living a good life and following closely what? the ten commandments? (is that god's will?), barring of course the ones about worshiping the Lord etc. They're just as moral and as good as their christian neighbour, the only difference being that they don't happen to believe in a god. Does the lack of belief in god constitute a rejection of god's will?

Jesus said that the first commandment is the most important. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul body. I would say that lack of belief regardless of motivation is evil in God's eyes but worse when someone chooses not to believe to suit the own agenda (e.g. lifestyle). Not being able to believe surely wouldn't be as serious.

I sometimes wonder do atheists give up on God too quickly. As Jesus said, ask and you will receive. How many atheists make a real and prolonged effort to pray for faith? I don't see how God could ignore such a prayer especially when accompanied by genuine contrition and humility.

robindch · 10-12-2008 07:03PM

kelly1 wrote: »

I sometimes wonder do atheists give up on God too quickly. [...] How many atheists make a real and prolonged effort to pray for faith?

How long did you pray for faith in Allah, Zeus, Vishna, Thor, Jupiter, Ahuru Mazda and so on, before you gave up on them?

kelly1 · 10-12-2008 07:05PM

rockbeer wrote: »

Of course, but I think we have evolved this way. I don't propose an all-loving god who built us in his own image yet still made us to be capable of stealing the money.

Do you want to be free of all responsibility for your actions? Responsibility brings growth and maturity.

rockbeer wrote: »

And is eternal punishment really consistent with love? What about forgiveness?

It's commensurate with the crime of rejecting the Creator of our eternal souls. The primary pain of hell is separation from God so those who go to hell have chosen to separate themselves from God who is the source of all good.

kelly1 · 10-12-2008 07:33PM

robindch wrote: »

How long did you pray for faith in Allah, Zeus, Vishna, Thor, Jupiter, Ahuru Mazda and so on, before you gave up on them?

For starters I would only accept monotheism because the alternative to my mind appears unworkable. Please don't ask me to give a rigorous argument for monotheism!

If work on the basis there is only 1 God, I could then investigate the likelihood that Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc are true.

I just think Christianity comes out on top when scrutinized. e.g there is a very strong case for the Resurrection of Jesus.

miss no stars · 10-12-2008 07:43PM

kelly1 wrote: »

I sometimes wonder do atheists give up on God too quickly. As Jesus said, ask and you will receive. How many atheists make a real and prolonged effort to pray for faith? I don't see how God could ignore such a prayer especially when accompanied by genuine contrition and humility.

I think that right there might be the catch 22 of the situation. A person who has never had religion will never have had any beliefs or prayer so how can they pray for belief?
Now, I myself was raised a Catholic, albeit an "at your leisure" Catholic. When it came around to making my confirmation I think I was one of those one in a thousand kids that actually did think about whether they wanted to make it or not. I went ahead and made it but the seed of "is this what you believe" had already been planted and I ended up not believing. At several times since I have tried to believe, granted I haven't prayed. I'm actually quite envious of those with faith. But enough of my tangent

Thanks for answering the questions honestly and in a coherent and in as unbiased a manner as I could possibly wish for. You've put a lot of the responses to the thread in context for me, as I clearly have a somewhat different definition of what constitutes evil than the one that christians would have. I no longer feel quite so shocked and offended!

rockbeer · 10-12-2008 08:06PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Do you want to be free of all responsibility for your actions? Responsibility brings growth and maturity.

I'm not trying to be a smartass but I genuinely have no idea how you could deduce that I take no personal responsibility from what I've written. I take full responsibility for my own actions, but looking at humanity as a whole it's obvious that, like other primates, we have evolved to exhibit a complex combination of altruistic and selfish behaviours. I don't hide behind that, just state it as a fact.

kelly1 wrote: »

It's commensurate with the crime of rejecting the Creator of our eternal souls. The primary pain of hell is separation from God so those who go to hell have chosen to separate themselves from God who is the source of all good.

All well and (not so) good, but it has nothing to do with love. You've just moved the goal posts. My question was: what does eternal punishment have to do with love? I wasn't asking how many other ways you can find to justify it.

rockbeer · 10-12-2008 08:14PM

kelly1 wrote: »

For starters I would only accept monotheism because the alternative to my mind appears unworkable. Please don't ask me to give a rigorous argument for monotheism!

So your faith is based on personal incredulity? What if you're wrong?

kelly1 wrote: »

If work on the basis there is only 1 God, I could then investigate the likelihood that Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc are true.

I just think Christianity comes out on top when scrutinized. e.g there is a very strong case for the Resurrection of Jesus.

But did you really pray to allah for an extended period before giving up on him?

What about Zoroastrianism? I hope you gave that a really good try too. Then there's Baha'i, Sikhism, not to mention the ancient Egyptian Aten cult. I hope you checked all these out thoroughly and would encourage everyone else to do the same.

kelly1 · 10-12-2008 09:18PM

rockbeer wrote: »

I'm not trying to be a smartass but I genuinely have no idea how you could deduce that I take no personal responsibility from what I've written.

You wrote:

I don't propose an all-loving god who built us in his own image yet still made us to be capable of stealing the money.

Either your gods is as messed up as we are, or he didn't really make us in his own image at all, or when it comes right down to it he's just not a very good creator.

What can I conclude from this other than that you don't think much of free-will. I'm saying that free-will brings responsibility.

rockbeer wrote: »

All well and (not so) good, but it has nothing to do with love. You've just moved the goal posts. My question was: what does eternal punishment have to do with love? I wasn't asking how many other ways you can find to justify it.

I don't think sending someone to hell shows hate for that person but it's more the case that the damned person has rejected God who is the source of all goodness. So to reject the Source of all goodness means to live without any good whatsoever which I suppose could be the definition of hell.

Mal-Adjusted · 10-12-2008 09:40PM

of course atheists are evil, can ya not see the horns and pitch-fork?:D

wolfsbane · 10-12-2008 09:42PM

bush Baby said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Maybe you could point out where Christians on this list have said we should not do the things you commend here?
The second post in the thread for starters! Something along the lines of "leave us Christians alone" - cracking start!

I was late to the thread, so may have missed that. What was the context? Seems strange any Christian not welcoming debate with an unbeliever. I'm glad to engage.

Quoting scripture - which incidentally is not very helpful to an Atheist who hasn't read the bible (I'm guessing) - Very ecumenical indeed

I quote Scripture to show that what I'm saying is not just something I dreamt up, but actual Christian teaching. If you are engaging with Christians on the validity of their argument, you will need to know they are arguing the Christian position. And of course you have full access to the Bible on-line, to check I quoted accurately.

As to being ecumenical, that is never my intention - I'm only interested in presenting the authentic Christian position, not some syncretistic dilution.

Third, the question asked was "Are Atheists evil?" Direct quotes from scripture may be blindingly obvious to some but to an Atheist, its like saying verse xyz says you're indeed evil so kill yourself now. Or not.....

If the atheist took on board all that I'm saying on trhe subject, suicide would not be an option. Repentance and faith would. If the doctor said you will die if your diabetes is not treated, would you think that killing yourself is an appropriate response? Would taking the medicine not be more sensible?

Indeed some have been very understanding but in the main, for a thread about Christianity, it leaves a lot to be desired does it not? If you can't see my point, you have the right to not agree. But if only one iis unchristian, then his values must be in question

As I said, I may have missed some abusive post - please point it out. I've read several pages without success so far.

wolfsbane · 10-12-2008 09:54PM

miss no stars wrote: »

I'm surprised by the responses here. I was raised a catholic and, although I didn't bother listening to much of the religious instruction, the general gist of it was to love one another.

Define evil.

I don't think most atheists would fit the definition. I've since gone away from catholicism and find myself not really believing in anything. However, I lead a good life, I love, I laugh, I care about people, I donate to charity, I work hard, I don't drink to excess, I don't do drugs. I'd hardly call that evil, I've simply thought about things and decided that, in my heart of hearts, I just don't believe.

Now, I saw this thread and, given that it was in a Christianity forum, fully expected the answer to be categorically no. So many people here claim to be christian, yet when asked if people are evil, based solely on whether they believe in god or not (rather than the people they are, the lives they lead etc), they will say yes! The two things just don't compute, it's hardly in the spirit of christianity to be so condemning is it?

I'm sorry to say that this is one of the reasons that I just couldn't accept what the church was saying. Never really got why I should "Fear" God if he was so loving and caring.

Please feel free to educate me on the last paragraph though.

God is first of all holy. His love and care cannot contradict that. He can for a time endure human wickedness and give them space to repent - but eventually His wrath will fall on them if they refuse to repent.

His holiness and love are both supremely expressed by the atoning death of His Son. Christ came to bear the just punishment that was due to His people. God so loved the world that He gave His only Son to the accused death of the cross, that all who repent and believe in Him would not perish in hell, but enjoy eternal life in heaven with Him.

If God were not holy, He could overlook sin; if He was not loving, He would have left all of us in our sins.

As to the definition of evil - expect a Christian forum to give the Christian definition. Unbelief is a sin, just as much as theft, rape or murder. It is an act of rebellion against God our Creator.

wolfsbane · 10-12-2008 10:00PM

bush Baby said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
I must differ from PDN here: everyone who does not trust in Christ will go to hell.

Those who never hear the gospel have nevertheless sinned against God - all mankind are by nature children of wrath.
Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Rejecting the gospel is not the only sin that puts men in hell:
Ephesians 5:5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
That's everyone? All humanity that hasn't even heard of Christ?

Hmmmm..... All Hindus, All Muslims, All Zoastrafarians, All Jews????

Yes - though that depends on defing Jews in the religious sense rather thasn the ethnic one.

Creation must have a very limited imagination if that's the case. Good job we invented printing otherwise no one would ever hear of Him.

God sent missionaries long before the printing press. Printing has just made the message more easily and permanently available - when the preacher has gone, the text remains.

miss no stars · 10-12-2008 10:16PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

God is first of all holy. His love and care cannot contradict that. He can for a time endure human wickedness and give them space to repent - but eventually His wrath will fall on them if they refuse to repent.

His holiness and love are both supremely expressed by the atoning death of His Son. Christ came to bear the just punishment that was due to His people. God so loved the world that He gave His only Son to the accused death of the cross, that all who repent and believe in Him would not perish in hell, but enjoy eternal life in heaven with Him.

If God were not holy, He could overlook sin; if He was not loving, He would have left all of us in our sins.

As to the definition of evil - expect a Christian forum to give the Christian definition. Unbelief is a sin, just as much as theft, rape or murder. It is an act of rebellion against God our Creator.

So unbelief is up there with the seven deadly sins? (Genuine question). I understand that a Christian forum will give a Christian definition, I was just misled as to whence the Christian definition came as at first it seemed extreme.

rockbeer · 10-12-2008 10:22PM

kelly1 wrote: »

You wrote:

What can I conclude from this other than that you don't think much of free-will. I'm saying that free-will brings responsibility.

But the point that you're missing is that I don't believe we were created at all, but have evolved. Therefore it's all irrelevant.

Not sure what you mean by I "don't think much of free will". What's to say - it's a given, whether we're created or not. It's the consequences I'm taking issue with and which you're still evading.

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't think sending someone to hell shows hate for that person

Maybe you should think about that. Eternal damnation, an act of love. Please, Noel, try to really think about what you're saying. Anyway, let's not confuse the issue. You're introducing hate here. I haven't mentioned hate or any other motivation. I'm just saying it's inconsistent with my idea of love.

kelly1 wrote: »

but it's more the case that the damned person has rejected God who is the source of all goodness. So to reject the Source of all goodness means to live without any good whatsoever which I suppose could be the definition of hell.

This is just window dressing. You're still evading the question of whether administering eternal punishment is consistent with a human conception of love.

TargetWidow · 10-12-2008 10:22PM

Fair enough if Christ proposed that it was a sin not to believe... but "evil"? I always understood evil to be without hope of redemption?

wolfsbane · 10-12-2008 10:28PM

miss no stars wrote: »

So unbelief is up there with the seven deadly sins? (Genuine question). I understand that a Christian forum will give a Christian definition, I was just misled as to whence the Christian definition came as at first it seemed extreme.

It is a sin and as such separates us from God and deserves His wrath.

But the way any particular person's unbelief compares in gravity with other sins depends on the degree of light one has - from those to whom much is given, much will be required. On the Last Day, the sinner who never heard the gospel will answer for the inate knowledge of God he had in his conscience. But the sinner who sat under the gospel - as many in our land have done - will be judged as a much greater sinner.

wolfsbane · 10-12-2008 10:32PM

TargetWidow wrote: »

Fair enough if Christ proposed that it was a sin not to believe... but "evil"? I always understood evil to be without hope of redemption?

No, evil is just the description of our sinful state. The good news is sent to all sinners, as Paul points out:
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

TargetWidow · 10-12-2008 10:37PM

So just to clarify... because I don't believe, regardless of how good a life I live and regardless of any and all good deeds done, just because I dont believe (and I cannot do any good unless I believe) I must perish? My behaviour is irrelevant? What a pointless waste of so much potential for good. And that's just me. There are billions more souls like mine. It just doesn't add up.

wolfsbane · 10-12-2008 11:05PM

TargetWidow wrote: »

So just to clarify... because I don't believe, regardless of how good a life I live and regardless of any and all good deeds done, just because I dont believe (and I cannot do any good unless I believe) I must perish? My behaviour is irrelevant? What a pointless waste of so much potential for good. And that's just me. There are billions more souls like mine. It just doesn't add up.

You value your good deeds too highly, and your rebellion against God too lightly.

As to your behaviour, it will only add to your condemnation, in the degree of its wickedness.

Our only potential for good is that of loving God and doing His will. That begins with repentance for our sins and putting our trust in Christ as our Redeemer.

TargetWidow · 10-12-2008 11:13PM

So the New Testament is just all tosh then?

Morbert · 10-12-2008 11:41PM

TargetWidow wrote: »

So just to clarify... because I don't believe, regardless of how good a life I live and regardless of any and all good deeds done, just because I dont believe (and I cannot do any good unless I believe) I must perish? My behaviour is irrelevant? What a pointless waste of so much potential for good. And that's just me. There are billions more souls like mine. It just doesn't add up.

Wait till Iblis gets a hold of 'em.

TargetWidow · 10-12-2008 11:47PM

Lucky I dont believe in heaven or hell either so then!:D

CDfm · 11-12-2008 12:47AM

miss no stars wrote: »

So unbelief is up there with the seven deadly sins? (Genuine question). I understand that a Christian forum will give a Christian definition, I was just misled as to whence the Christian definition came as at first it seemed extreme.

In Matthew it says -" judge not lest ye be judged"and "let him without sin cast the first stone"

This is interpreted to mean -do not judge too harshly as you will be judged by the same measure.

I hope that lightens the mood a bit- thats fairly simple.

CDfm · 11-12-2008 12:56AM

I cant look at some of these posts and not think that if someone can be discriminated on the grounds of religion can you have discrimination for non belief. Can it happen.

I seem to remember a reverend in Trim posting that he didnt believe any more and leaving a Fr Dougal style message on his website.

Now I believe - but if someone has a crisis of faith and cant believe sincerily but still subscribes to the ethics and morals surely you cant condemn them. I think not.

ChocolateSauce · 11-12-2008 12:59AM

CDfm wrote: »

I cant look at some of these posts and not think that if someone can be discriminated on the grounds of religion can you have discrimination for non belief. Can it happen.

I seem to remember a reverend in Trim posting that he didnt believe any more and leaving a Fr Dougal style message on his website.

Now I believe - but if someone has a crisis of faith and cant believe sincerily but still subscribes to the ethics and morals surely you cant condemn them. I think not.

In America discrimination against atheists is not only rampant, it is culturally, officially and sometimes even legally encouraged. This goes a long way to explain why atheists often seem highly defensive. I've personally never been victim (as far as I know), so I thank god I live in Europe.

TargetWidow · 11-12-2008 09:50PM

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I thank god I live in Europe.

Would an Athiest thank God for stuff?

:D:D:D:D:D:D

ChocolateSauce · 11-12-2008 11:29PM

Because I was raised in a Christian-majority country. I'm sure I'd be thanking Mohammad or Buddha or Vishnu if I were from another land.

Are Athiests evil?

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