Are Athiests evil?

kelly1

Shinji Ikari wrote: »

Well I'm an Empiricist. I hav'nt studied Positivism
in great detail.

From Wiki...

Positivism is the philosophy that the only authentic knowledge is knowledge that is based on actual sense experience. Such knowledge can come only from affirmation of theories through strict scientific method. Metaphysical speculation is avoided.

Shinji Ikari wrote: »

I think its more of a case that God is silent on Science. Which is a bit strange because if God exists it would be the ultimate scientist.

God gave us intelligence so we could do the science. As science isn't what ultimately matters, God isn't concerned with teaching it to us.

Shinji Ikari

kelly1 wrote: »

From Wiki...

Positivism is the philosophy that the only authentic knowledge is knowledge that is based on actual sense experience. Such knowledge can come only from affirmation of theories through strict scientific method. Metaphysical speculation is avoided.



God gave us intelligence so we could do the science. As science isn't what ultimately matters, God isn't concerned with teaching it to us.

Thanks for the wiki summerisation quote. Yeah I read a bit about positivism years ago and it is sort of related to empiricism. I enjoy metaphysics, especially Descartes, however I find empiricism more relevant to real life.

As for your other statement. If that is true why bother with the book of Genesis? And how do you know the mind of God?

kelly1

Shinji Ikari wrote: »

As for your other statement. If that is true why bother with the book of Genesis? And how do you know the mind of God?

Genesis isn't a scientific account of creation. It tells the essential facts that God created the universe and that He created us (our souls at least) in His image.

I don't *know* the mind of God but I believe He has revealed the goodness of majesty of His nature truthfully in the bible. But that has nothing to do with whether we can prove whether God exists.

Shinji Ikari

kelly1 wrote: »

Genesis isn't a scientific account of creation. It tells the essential facts that God created the universe and that He created us (our souls at least) in His image.

I don't *know* the mind of God but I believe He has revealed the goodness of majesty of His nature truthfully in the bible. But that has nothing to do with whether we can prove whether God exists.

Why would God say it created the world in six days when it created the Universe billions of years ago with the Big Bang? Why would he deceive he's creations?

PDN

Shinji Ikari wrote: »

Why would God say it created the world in six days when it created the Universe billions of years ago with the Big Bang? Why would he deceive he's creations?

Moderators request:
Shinji Ikari, I suggest you take the time to familiarise with some of the other threads in this forum, where this has been discussed ad nauseam.

Many Christians believe that the first chapters of Genesis are written as an allegory or parable, affirming that fact that God created the world in language that primitive peoples could understand.

If this thread goes down the Creationism rabbit trail then it will be locked. I, for one, am getting sick of nearly every thread eventually going down that route with the same tired old accusations and refutations.

PDN

Fanny Cradock

It's not deception, it's an allegorical tale (or so many Christians believe) and one that was appropriate to a time where there really was no science (at least nothing that bore any resemblance to what we now identify as 'science') and little in the way of understanding the universe. Genesis was an explanation for a time when people had no concept of millions - let alone billions - of years, singularities, quarks or dark energy.

The bible is not a scientific book and it makes no claim to be. Therefore it shouldn't be treated as such.

Shinji Ikari

PDN wrote: »

Moderators request:
Shinji Ikari, I suggest you take the time to familiarise with some of the other threads in this forum, where this has been discussed ad nauseam.

Many Christians believe that the first chapters of Genesis are written as an allegory or parable, affirming that fact that God created the world in language that primitive peoples could understand.

If this thread goes down the Creationism rabbit trail then it will be locked. I, for one, am getting sick of nearly every thread eventually going down that route with the same tired old accusations and refutations.

PDN

Fair enough. Although this thread has gone far off topic long before I chimed in to be fair to myself though. I suppose thats the nature of these sort of debates. Its almost inevitable folk will meander of on a tangent. However I agree. It would be a good idea to finally bring the thread back on topic.

CDfm

Shinji Ikari wrote: »

Actually it's religious folk who mix science with religion not the other way around. If you believe a God created the Universe your're postulating a scientific theory;the ultimate scientific theory.Thus your theory will be examined by the scientific method and it fails. Hence my atheism.

Religious folk wrote books first.

But you seem to know very little about the Hellenistic-Judeaist reading of the bible though its in use for two millenia.Its referenced in St Paul that a lot of Genesis is allegorical.

Then again- neither do Creationists so you guys may have a lot in common- so you should find a creationist thread.

Shinji Ikari

CDfm wrote: »

Religious folk wrote books first.

But you seem to know very little about the Hellenistic-Judeaist reading of the bible though its in use for two millenia.Its referenced in St Paul that a lot of Genesis is allegorical.

Then again- neither do Creationists so you guys may have a lot in common- so you should find a creationist thread.

As the Mod said lets not go down the Creationsist route. However I feel I must respond. To me this is a typical example of Christians "cherry picking" from the Bible.i.e.Some stuff is allegorical when its inconvinient and literal when its convinient.

Anyway back on topic. No Atheists are not evil. Only actions and intents are evil not people.

CDfm

Shinji Ikari wrote: »

As the Mod said lets not go down the Creationsist route. However I feel I must respond. To me this is a typical example of Christians "cherry picking" from the Bible.i.e.Some stuff is allegorical when its inconvinient and literal when its convinient.

Anyway back on topic. No Atheists are not evil. Only actions and intents are evil not people.

Im not a Creationist. I dont bthinki I have ever met one.

The Bible has been read this way by christians since the begining of Christianity.

Believe what you want if it makes you happy-the majority of mainstream christians are not creationists and to say we are is just not factualy corect.

kelly1

kelly1 wrote: »

I think you'll find that science can say nothing about God. That only proves the limitations of science.

The logical conclusion of your position is that since religious theory claims the ability to explain everything that it is superior to science. However given the circular nature of religious theory it simply does not stand up to any logical scrutiny. Everything can be explained by the presence of God through religious texts and many of the explanations pre-suppose the existence of a deity, however the essential problem of proving the existence of a deity is then based upon the existence of the religious texts in the first place as well as a number of other independent theories which rarely, if ever, elicit anything but indifference from the scientific community.

Scientific theory is superior as it is, by definition, aware of its limitations and challenges them constantly rather than being based on an intangible. It bases its theories on quantifiable and measurable data and it is revised and updated infinitely as the canon of human knowledge and understanding becomes ever greater. The history of the biblical texts, the nature of things such as the Nicean Creed and the growth of christian dogma by the patristic fathers all underpin the completely fallacious basis for much of what is held up as christian explanations for scientific questions.

Are atheists evil? Scientists are engaged in an eternal search for truth separate from the mysticism that has clouded our past. According to the Bible, Jesus said "...you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32. Regardless of whether Jesus was man or God this is a piece of wisdom nonetheless. So really, regardless of your point of view, atheists cannot be evil due to their atheism as either there is no God, in which case the entire western concept of "evil" would require re-visiting, or there is, in which case Jesus' quote from the Book of John would suggest that their struggle to find truth sets them on a Christian path and since Christian teachings tell us that it is what is in a man's heart that makes his deeds good or bad (from Matthew 5:21-22 "You have heard that people were told in the past ‘Do not commit murder; anyone who does will be brought to trial.’ But now I tell you: whoever is angry with his brother shall be brought to trial, whoever calls his brother ‘You good-for-nothing!’ will be brought before the council, and whoever calls his brother a worthless fool will be in danger of going to the fire of hell. - here we can see the concept of intentionality being formed as was further built upon by Augustine of Hippo in his On the Lord's Sermon on the Mount) If then, it is the direction of our souls that defines us (a concept which Emmanuel Kant would build upon in his Metaphysics of Pure Morals) then no man who seeks truth can be evil by definition.

robindch

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Genesis was an explanation for a time when people had no concept of millions - let alone billions - of years [...]

Without wishing to get entangled in another fruitless argument about how one can accurately distinguish allegorical from non-allegorical prose, I think it's fair to point out that the relatively late Genesis text shares ideas and events with much earlier Sumerian myths such as the Epic of Gilgamesh. These earlier tales were not explanations of how the world came about, but rather why it did, and the texts were myths in the Greek sense of tales which were intended to convey a moral truth.

Also, there's little evidence that people three millennia ago weren't smart enough to deal with large numbers. Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics contained a symbol for one million, while Hindu cosmology proposes a universe around 150 trillion years old, around 10,000 times older than modern cosmology has it. Elsewhere, and some centuries after Genesis was written, Archimedes came very close to discovering integral calculus and dealt with numbers up to ((10^8)^(10^8))^(10^8).

Niallface

religion is for those who are too weak to think for themselves,
also should the question not be are christians evil? i see no difference other than Atheists (in theory) draw their opinions from many sources where as the religious folk (in theory) don't have opinions just what their church tells them.
Religion causes wars, excludes the differant and preys on the weak and vulnerable. for god sake leave the children alone can the church not wait until one can make their own informed decision.

Fanny Cradock

Careful now Niallface. I don't appreciate being called to weak to think for myself, nor do other Christians. Read the charter and welcome aboard.

mayordenis

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Careful now Niallface. I don't appreciate being called to weak to think for myself, nor do other Christians. Read the charter and welcome aboard.

Spoken like a true christian.
Tell them all to read and then obey blindly.

Fanny Cradock

robindch wrote: »

Genesis text shares ideas and events with much earlier Sumerian myths such as the Epic of Gilgamesh.

It's certainly worth a bit of investigation on my part. That's for another thread, though.

robindch wrote: »

Also, there's little evidence that people three millennia ago weren't smart enough to deal with large numbers. Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics contained a symbol for one million, while Hindu cosmology proposes a universe around 150 trillion years old, around 10,000 times older than modern cosmology has it. Elsewhere, and some centuries after Genesis was written, Archimedes came very close to discovering integral calculus and dealt with numbers up to ((10^8)^(10^8))^(10^8).

Yes, some people had a concept of very large numbers, but that doesn't mean everybody did. I would argue that intelligence had nothing to do with conceiving such astronomical numbers (pun intended), rather it's a matter of education and necessity.

With regards to intelligence, I have certainly never heard anyone put forward a thesis - let alone a convincing one - arguing that we, as a species, have become demonstrably more intelligent in the last 2000 years. Besides this, there is more to explaining the universe than understanding really big numbers.

Again, that would probably be best discussed in the B, C & P thread.

Fanny Cradock

mayordenis wrote: »

Spoken like a true christian.
Tell them all to read and then obey blindly.

Listen, post something constructive or don't post at all. OK? I don't go trolling around the forum you moderate, you should at least have the cop-on to return the courtesy.

pinder

I wouldnt call myself an atheist,atheists dont believe in anything yes??.technically im catholic,although I havent been a practicing Catholic for a long time.I believe there is a god,something that made everything,but I dont believe that people can be governed by god through other people.i dont think you need to pray or go to church to praise God.I like to think we praise him by living life to the fullest and by respecting everything he's made.to answer the question,no i dont think atheists are evil.atheists have as much chance off being evil as anyone alse.whether or not someones evil is not dependant on whether or not they have the same religion as you,it depends on how they live their life.if an atheist has the same respect for people,the same goodness in his heart as a christian why would you consider him evil and the christian a good person?

CDfm

robindch wrote: »

Without wishing to get entangled in another fruitless argument .....the texts were myths in the Greek sense of tales which were intended to convey a moral truth.

Also, there's little evidence that people three millennia ago weren't smart enough to deal with large numbers. .....

But its fair to say that there was abstract thought - literacy and all that but it wasnt mainstream.

Our ancestors were far smarter then we give them credit for.

CDfm

CDfm wrote: »

But its fair to say that there was abstract thought - literacy and all that but it wasnt mainstream.

Our ancestors were far smarter then we give them credit for.

I had a history professor years ago who once asked the class "Are we anymore civilised than the Greeks?". I remember it got me thinking about if we are better/smarter etc than our ancestors.

The revolution that was the invention of zero or the wheel or arithmetic are all equivalent to the Special Theory of Relativity of the discovery of the electron. It is simply a matter of the base knowledge which underlines it rather than the intelligence to perceive these new ideas.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Or are you saying science has proven that God doesn't exist?

Science doesn't prove things ... <bangs head against wall>

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

I think you'll find that science can say nothing about God. That only proves the limitations of science.

Doesn't it "prove" the limitation of humans believing stuff claimed by other humans .. ?

Science can say nothing about God yet you believe he exists, is the way you believe him to be, and that other humans can, some how, determine a whole lot of things about God right down to descriptions of things he is supposed to have done.

Have you found a better way, a less limited way, to discover this information, or are you simply believing it to be true without a particularly good reason (ie have you found a reason better than assessed scientific theories?)

pinder

can people look at the title of the thread,its not whether or not god is real.i suggest this thread being closed.same arguements again and again

Fanny Cradock

pinder wrote: »

can people look at the title of the thread,its not whether or not god is real.i suggest this thread being closed.same arguements again and again

You're correct, the thread title isn't about whether or not God is real, it about the morality of atheists as originally asked by an atheist. As for the same arguments being brought up again and again - welcome to the internet!

CDfm

pinder wrote: »

I wouldnt call myself an atheist,atheists dont believe in anything yes??.technically im catholic,although I havent been a practicing Catholic for a long time.I believe there is a god,something that made everything,but I dont believe that people can be governed by god through other people.i dont think you need to pray or go to church to praise God.I like to think we praise him by living life to the fullest and by respecting everything he's made.to answer the question,no i dont think atheists are evil.atheists have as much chance off being evil as anyone alse.whether or not someones evil is not dependant on whether or not they have the same religion as you,it depends on how they live their life.if an atheist has the same respect for people,the same goodness in his heart as a christian why would you consider him evil and the christian a good person?



can people look at the title of the thread,its not whether or not god is real.i suggest this thread being closed.same arguements again and again

You had your say but want it closed to others - thats not very fair. Maybe even a little bit evil

Fanny Cradock

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You're correct, the thread title isn't about whether or not God is real, it about the morality of atheists as originally asked by an atheist.

The definition of morality depends entirely upon whether or not you believe there is a God so I would argue the debate on the existence of God is a logical corollary to this thread.

That said, it would be better to simply state your position under 2 headings:

1) Assuming that there is a God
2) Assuming that there is no God

Obviously this is limited as the conception and interpretation of a perceived deity's laws on morality will also play a large part in the argument but for the purposes of this more general discussion the two above presuppositions would suffice.

ChocolateSauce

There isn't any real evidence that people from 5, 10, or even 40,000 thousand years ago were less intelligent than modern man, only totally ignorant and uneducated. In all probability, a cave man taken from 40,000 years ago and educated would be perfectly well able to understand our world at our level.

The time when changes in intelligence must have taken place was before our ancestors left Africa, because when they did leave they split and colonised the world, and today their descendants, separated by millenia, are just as smart as each other.

CDfm

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

There isn't any real evidence that people from 5, 10, or even 40,000 thousand years ago were less intelligent than modern man, only totally ignorant and uneducated. In all probability, a cave man taken from 40,000 years ago and educated would be perfectly well able to understand our world at our level.

but were they atheists?

Yavvy

CDfm wrote: »

but were they atheists?

Doubt it.. they were most likley to worship something.. like the big yellow orb in the sky. the fools !

"I dont believe the Sun exists and Im not evil" wasnt a topic of conversation on boards20000.BC ill bet.

ahem back on topic.
its a pointless argument this... cause no Athiest are not evil..unless you consider choosing not to believe in God to be evil.. in that case they are.

answer to question. No..to most rational people they are not.

pinder

i had my say in relation to the title of the thread,the thread is not called 'does god exist' or whatever.its are atheists evil.why dont you make a thread about whether god exists