Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

SpookyDoll · 10-12-2008 12:07PM

Look, quote all the statistics you like, life is not nice and neat like a college course with correct and simple solutions to questions.

Of course streetwise and experienced people are resistant to the idea of social workers and their like being a panacea for all societies ills, look at the track record they have, naive, bungling, incompetent, mostly middle class college graduates who are hopelessly out of their depth in real life situations.

Yet they remain firmly entrenched in their belief that they are indispensable to the process of "rehabilitation" even as the crims mug them off day after day.

Why are they so entrenched? Cos they are getting paid to espouse this bullsh1t utopia. They've done their college course and it strokes their vanity to believe they are "making a difference to the world".
Give them 6 months on the actual job and they're crying into their wine at night and scanning around for a career change.

Its not in their financial interest to admit the whole thing is a crock. But everyone knows it. So they continue to ostrich, take the paychecks. Its the parallel universe of public sector emloyees. You cant reason with them, delusion is their middle name.

You'll hear it in court all day long, "oh young Anto is a changed lad, his long term partner has just given birth and he has signed on to a methedone programme, he has one clean urine sample and is attending a get back to work course since last Friday" blah blah blah.....

The Judge may or may not suck it up, and Anto is free to bagsnatch another day. On and on it goes, the social workers dont want to be seen to judge young Anto (after all blame is baaaad m'kay), they give him chance after chance. Anto either wants to roide the social worker or snatch her bag cos she's a dog like....

"What good will putting them in prison do...."

Heres the good it will do, it will keep them off the streets and it will make the public feel better. Thats it, the best we can hope for realistically.

As for preventing crime and rehabilitation, I dont know what works but I know what doesnt work and thats fooking Sorcha and Mork from Dalkey trying to sort out Anto and Finno from Finglas.....

asdasd · 10-12-2008 12:26PM

And yet it hasn't worked for either the US or the UK. Has it?

What worked in Manhattan was zero tolerance. How would have that worked in this case?

1) Aidan Kane harassed by kids. Calls police.
2) Kids arrested.
3) Family house searched as parents of dangerous minors held to account ( a new law maybe, that a search warrant ensues if a kid is rowdy. Looking for guns, dangerous knives etc.)
4) Gun seized. Family arrested. Kane alive.

Remember the killing of the Goth girl. On a beach in England. Preston, I think?

Here is how it played out.

1) Girl walks on beach with boyfriend.
2) Boyfriend is attacked by drunken chavs for being different.
3) She intervenes and is killed in a "frenzied attack"

How would this play out with zero tolerance?

1) Girl walks on beach
2) No chavs. chavs previously arrested, or in jail for drunken loitering, intimidation, destruction of public property et al. New chavs afraid to loiter on beach.
3) Girl alive.

Molycoddling liberalism kills people.

Zulu · 10-12-2008 12:50PM

jtsuited wrote: »

And my point was that there is a very credible theory amongst economists, criminologists and others that in the US the crime rate decrease in the 90's was directly related to the legalisation of abortion 20 years previous.

??? A text link to a "new york times" article that isn't even the New York times is hardly a "very credible theory".

If this is actually the case then yes it has 'worked' for the US (I don't know of any similar study in the UK, so I can't comment on it).

IF being the appropriate word here. But have you considered the negative consequences of that action? Have you any "studies" considering that??
It was announced recently that in our media
sample 1, sample 2, ...and the Mail with a nice round 30% figure :rolleyes: that a "Until now the college said the risk of psychological problems that come from following through with the pregnancy outweighed those of having an abortion.

But a major review of its position has resulted in a shift that acknowledges for the first time there may be mental health consequences of terminations."

Have you considered the effects a single mother suffering from "psychological problems" would have on raising existing younger children??
Or the overall social impact???

Zulu · 10-12-2008 12:53PM

asdasd wrote: »

What worked in Manhattan was zero tolerance.

The only problem with that here is we don't have the prison space.

I reckon punish the parents until the children are old enough to be punished.
Get the parents doing social work, cleaning up graffiti, cleaning up dumped mattresses and the like.
Then they pay a bit more attention to what their children are doing.

Zombrex · 10-12-2008 01:08PM

marcsignal wrote: »

totally pointless, unless it goes hand in hand with giving them more powers of access to the childs home, powers to take children out of abusive/harmful home environments, and reform of the law in regard to youth crime.

They (social workers) already have these powers. The problem is lack of resources to actually do anything and a lack of willingness from society in general to support actions to actually trying to do anything before[/i] a crime is committed. Just look at the resistance to any notion of things like this on this thread alone ("give them all a cup of tea and a cuddle" :rolleyes:)

Jumpy · 10-12-2008 01:20PM

Zulu wrote: »

The only problem with that here is we don't have the prison space.

I reckon punish the parents until the children are old enough to be punished.
Get the parents doing social work, cleaning up graffiti, cleaning up dumped mattresses and the like.
Then they pay a bit more attention to what their children are doing.

How much would it cost to build and staff prisons compared to the legal costs of these tossbags day after day? It isnt like Ireland is short on space.
That is a question that has always interested me.

SpookyDoll · 10-12-2008 01:25PM

As a taxpayer I'd far rather see my euros go into more prisons and a legal system which is harsher on crimes against the person.

Taxpayers cannot afford the luxury of subsidising Sorcha and Morks deluded "careers" any more.

Nothing stopping them giving their time and services free of charge though, if their hearts are really in it....:p

Zombrex · 10-12-2008 01:31PM

SpookyDoll wrote: »

naive, bungling, incompetent, mostly middle class college graduates who are hopelessly out of their depth in real life situations.

Do you actually know any social workers ... ?

SpookyDoll wrote: »

Give them 6 months on the actual job and they're crying into their wine at night and scanning around for a career change.

That isn't actually true, social working has a quite low rate of career change compared to a lot of other industries.

SpookyDoll wrote: »

Its not in their financial interest to admit the whole thing is a crock. But everyone knows it.

"Everyone" being you, your mate in the pub and the taxi driver you were talking to last night ... ?

SpookyDoll · 10-12-2008 01:35PM

ha ha ha, you bit at last!!!

Yeh -terrible isnt it -what am I like with my substandard prole anecdotal evidence?

oh boo hoo I better run off quickly and get some empirical evidence or else a fact is not a fact!!!!

Zulu · 10-12-2008 01:35PM

Jumpy wrote: »

How much would it cost to build and staff prisons compared to the legal costs of these tossbags day after day? It isnt like Ireland is short on space.
That is a question that has always interested me.

No, but we are short on money. So take the money from Health or from Policing or from Education?
You also need to overcome the revolving door issues we have with out prisons.

SpookyDoll wrote: »

As a taxpayer I'd far rather see my euros go into more prisons and a legal system which is harsher on crimes against the person.

And where do you want to take that money from? Or would you prefer to up taxes?
You are also investing your tax euros in a false economy. Our prisons don't reform, so you aren't providing a solution to the problem at all - just a temporary knee-jerk solution, that'll cause more problems in the long run.

Get the parents out working - breaking rocks, cleaning up and the like. Now there's a solution. Using the birth cert you can even encourage both parents in a "single parent" scenario to become more active in the childs life.
The more I think about the idea, the more I'm liking it!

Zombrex · 10-12-2008 01:36PM

SpookyDoll wrote: »

As a taxpayer I'd far rather see my euros go into more prisons and a legal system which is harsher on crimes against the person.

Since neither of those things have been shown to prevent crime I'm not sure why?

Zulu · 10-12-2008 01:37PM

SpookyDoll wrote: »

ha ha ha, you bit at last!!!

Interesting, you openly admit to trolling.

Zombrex · 10-12-2008 01:40PM

SpookyDoll wrote: »

ha ha ha, you bit at last!!!

Indeed. Jokes on me :rolleyes:

I'm glad the death of a person and the issue of violent crime in Ireland gives you an excuse for amusement and trolling. Now, where is that ignore button.

Terry · 10-12-2008 01:45PM

SpookyDoll wrote: »

ha ha ha, you bit at last!!!

Yeh -terrible isnt it -what am I like with my substandard prole anecdotal evidence?

oh boo hoo I better run off quickly and get some empirical evidence or else a fact is not a fact!!!!

Stop trolling.

SpookyDoll · 10-12-2008 01:46PM

Sorry.

Ouijaboard · 10-12-2008 03:12PM

I'm sick to death of hearing that little johnny etc has a problem with how he metabilizes sugar or something akin which leads him stick on his hoodie in the morning and proceed to destroy his neighbours lives, while his parents sit on their welfare claiming arses and when the social worker calls they say that johnny is in fine form today, very quiet, as he sits planning what level of destruction hes going to partake in with his mates after the sun goes down.

I personally witnessed a bunch of 8-12 yr olds literally demolish a newly vacated house in my area recently, they, over a weekend preceeded to break the external walls in. It wasnt out of a need to get into the house, they already had access to the house from all the broken windows that they got round to earlier. It really beggers belief how this sort of thing can happen these days without the 'state' even blinking, we are all too busy thinking about the pork situation to allow this sort of destruction bother us, yet its this sort of behaviour that leads to the incident in east wall. Eventually destroying the vacated house isnt good enough, they move on to having do it to an occupied house. The council arrived on monday to 'board' up the house, it was almost comical, the house was vacated the previous monday, from monday to friday the windows doors were gradually broken, with the council and the law being informed at all times, but apparently it isnt council policy to board up houses anymore because it makes the area look deprived. Well it fcukin looks beautiful now with a large portion of the external wall missing.

As for solutions to the problem to a 'child' somehow getting hold of a gun and using it, well its an almost impossible situation to prevent, social workers dont solve the problem, they will take much less notice of social workers influence than parents. They have to be removed from society, if that means building large amounts of prisions and having extremely harsh sentences then so be it. I happen to believe that more an more prisions and juvenile prisions are even more important than roads at the moment such is the extent of this blight across the country. It may work to the states advantage if the little bastards are put on a hard labour sentence and made to assist in building the countrys roads from the age of 14 upwards.

So prison doesnt rehabilitate the bastards, who cares, so they get out and reoffend, then they go back in to prison with and even harsher sentence until their lives start to slowly drip away from them. I dont hear too many cases where someone who is encarcerated from the ages of 15 to 50 getting out and reoffending. They are usually a wreck if they manage to survive that long and when the get out society has changed so much it is usually a quiet process of adjusting to a new world. Plenty of cases though where an 18yr old with 250 priors gets out of a manslaughter charge when hes 24 and reoffends.

Also the age of criminal responsibility needs to be lowered to roughly 8 yrs of age, also when a 13yr commits murder then he should serve 5 yrs in juvenile prison and then immediately be put into senior prison for a further 25-30 years. Also regarding the costs of prison then if they were harsher with less creature comforts than they have now then the costs will be lowered dramatically. Barge prisons should be considered and we have plenty of islands around the state which would make great locations to keep the scum away from the rest of us who are decent law abiding hard working drones.

I feel really sorry for the son of the guy killed, I also think it should be getting more media attention and uproar than it has; on monday night i waited until approx 24 minutes past 9pm to see the latest report on rte news about it, yes pork was the previous 23 minutes of the news that night. Well as far as i'm aware pork has killed nobody yet, and doesnt look likely to do so either.

walshb · 10-12-2008 03:17PM

gurramok wrote: »

In short - Man's home pelted by eggs, man chases youngsters and he is shot by one of them.

13 yr old arrested so far

Shocking :mad:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1208/eastwall.html
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhidsnojgbid/rss2/
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1208/1228571632040.html?via=mr

Despicabe yes, but how is it shocking. This carnage has been going on for years now.
It didn't shock or surprise me one bit

Funny, what is shocking is that it is NOT shocking!

Zulu · 10-12-2008 03:20PM

cougar1 wrote: »

So prison doesnt rehabilitate the bastards, who cares

I do. I want to lower the crime rate and make our society safer for everyone.

so they get out and reoffend,

I'd rather prevent that from happening.

I dont hear too many cases where someone who is encarcerated from the ages of 15 to 50 getting out and reoffending.

It's a proven fact that people reoffend after being released from prison. Just because you haven't heard it, doesn't make it any less true.

They are usually a wreck if they manage to survive that long and when the get out society has changed so much it is usually a quiet process of adjusting to a new world.

Of course this is purly speculation on your behalf. Or do you have proof?

JaneyMc · 10-12-2008 03:29PM

My brother goes to school with the guy who shot that poor man.

There is one main story floating around that sounds plausible, i know you can't always go on hear say but a lot of the information has been available locally that they are not reporting in the media. I don't know if I should go into it though.

But I have heard some of the things they did to torment him, including stealing his dog twice and actually selling it back to him, and that the guy that did it is actually 15 and not 13.

marcsignal · 10-12-2008 03:30PM

gurramok wrote: »

I'd support the German example you listed earlier, giving more powers and checks to authorities to take at risk kids away from neglectful parents.

it seems to work anyways, germany has the lowest youth crime rate in Europe, and from what i've read it's been that way consistantly since they began taking stats on the issue in the 1920's*

* i had a link to stats yesterday which in now cannot find but will post asap

Terry · 10-12-2008 03:33PM

Please don't go into it.

The general rule is that we don't discuss the details of ongoing cases as they may lead to bias towards either parties.

Overheal · 10-12-2008 03:33PM

Im impressed: nobody has tried to blame this on video games OR Marlyn Manson. Kudos.

Terry · 10-12-2008 03:34PM

Overheal wrote: »

Im impressed: nobody has tried to blame this on video games OR Marlyn Manson. Kudos.

Nah, just the parents or society or numerous other outside factors.

Zulu · 10-12-2008 03:35PM

...it was all because of that new Marlyn Manson video game that came out. Grand Theft Something.
You can beat prostitutes to death in it.

Ouijaboard · 10-12-2008 03:40PM

You can nit pick all you want zulu, I know prison doesnt solve the problem, neither do social workers, keeping offenders away from society with harsh sentences for say 'minor' offences, say 2 years for stealing a car, to start with keeps them off the streets for 2 years of non offending, when they are released and if they reoffend then they get an even harsher sentence next time, and on and on, as long as it keeps them away from society for ever increasing periods then less crime takes place. Current situation allows these buggers to have upwards of 250 previous convictions and by the time they are 18 they have a gun a drug enterprise and gang of heavies and control an entire estate. Current 'child' law is not working.

Yes its a proven fact that people reoffend when released from prison, if they are not catching on by say the 10th time then its time to remove them from society for large periods of their life. We dont have time to spend 10 years finding out that after 150 convictions little johnnys ADHD is not really ADHD after all, he is just an evil little bastard who gets a kick out of destroying everything around him.

SpookyDoll · 10-12-2008 03:51PM

cougar1 wrote: »

You can nit pick all you want zulu, I know prison doesnt solve the problem, neither do social workers, keeping offenders away from society with harsh sentences for say 'minor' offences, say 2 years for stealing a car, to start with keeps them off the streets for 2 years of non offending, when they are released and if they reoffend then they get an even harsher sentence next time, and on and on, as long as it keeps them away from society for ever increasing periods then less crime takes place. Current situation allows these buggers to have upwards of 250 previous convictions and by the time they are 18 they have a gun a drug enterprise and gang of heavies and control an entire estate. Current 'child' law is not working.

Yes its a proven fact that people reoffend when released from prison, if they are not catching on by say the 10th time then its time to remove them from society for large periods of their life. We dont have time to spend 10 years finding out that after 150 convictions little johnnys ADHD is not really ADHD after all, he is just an evil little bastard who gets a kick out of destroying everything around him.

I agree, its also quite enraging for the taxpayer to fund a little side industry of Sociology which in itself parasites off these little parasites on society.
Its ineffective relative to the costs involved versus the results.

I dont know if prevention and rehabilitation CAN be achieved, ever...I think the most we can do though is properly contain the problem as has been described above in Germany.

On a side note WickNight I want to apologise properly to you, although I disagree with your point of view I could have expressed it more respectfully, so I do apologise.

marcsignal · 10-12-2008 03:54PM

Wicknight wrote: »

They (social workers) already have these powers. The problem is lack of resources to actually do anything and a lack of willingness from society in general to support actions to actually trying to do anything before[/i] a crime is committed. Just look at the resistance to any notion of things like this on this thread alone ("give them all a cup of tea and a cuddle" :rolleyes:)

i can only partially agree with you here, afaik social workers don't have powers of entry to private homes here, but may have to council houses/flats, tbh i don't know for sure.

The main difference between here and germany is accountability on ALL sides.

For example, if a social worker makes a recommendation to the authorities, and that recommendation is not followed up, the person responsible will be sacked, or at the very least, severly reprimanded.

If a youth commits a crime in germany, he/she WILL pay the price. You'll be looking for a long time to find any minor in germany walking around with 15 previous convictions.

If a minor plays truant from school, the school sends a minibus to his/her house in the morning to collect them. If they still won't go to school, the police come in the morning to collect them, to take them to school. If they still persist in being naughty, they are sent to a special school, where they will remain until they co-operate.

jtsuited · 10-12-2008 03:57PM

ok so is anyone willing to admit that Ireland has created an underclass?

A class of people who have absolutely nothing to lose so can do anything they want, and the worst we can do is put them in a prison etc?

While I believe in personal responsibility and think that yes some people are too quick to blame society, video games, etc., this problem will never go away until that underclass situation is dealt with. More prisons or zero tolerance don't fix it.

Unfortunately a certain Austrian in the first half of the 20th century gave the term Eugenics a bad name, so mass sterilisation is out of question.

Zulu · 10-12-2008 04:01PM

cougar1 wrote: »

You can nit pick all you want zulu

I'm not nit picking, I'm only pointing out facts; highlighting reality.

I know prison doesnt solve the problem,

Ok, but do you not want to invest your money in an actual solution? I know I do.

...even harsher sentence next time, and on and on, as long as it keeps them away from society for ever increasing periods then less crime takes place.

Thats simply not true though is it?

Current 'child' law is not working.

I agree.

Yes its a proven fact that people reoffend when released from prison,

So why encourage a system that will create more crime?

We dont have time to spend 10 years finding out that after 150 convictions little johnnys ADHD is not really ADHD after all, he is just an evil little bastard who gets a kick out of destroying everything around him.

Have you any idea of the costs behind what you are suggesting? It costs money to keep people in prison you know?

Orange69 · 10-12-2008 04:03PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVjbf-dHjW0&feature=related

A little light relief reflecting the thread title.

Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

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