Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

marcsignal · 09-12-2008 08:00PM

Orange69 wrote: »

The liberal idiots wouldn't what that either.. that would infringe on the "rights" of the parents..

EXACTLY Orange69, and that's the reality of where we are now in Ireland, no responsibility, no accountability, and no will to change that, hence the problem.

vestanpance · 09-12-2008 08:00PM

Orange69 wrote: »

The liberal idiots wouldn't what that either.. that would infringe on the "rights" of the parents..

Maybe we should shoot all them first then.

marcsignal · 09-12-2008 08:03PM

vestanpance wrote: »

Maybe we should shoot all them first then.

REALLY constructive reply there vestanpance :rolleyes:

vestanpance · 09-12-2008 08:05PM

marcsignal wrote: »

REALLY constructive reply there vestanpance :rolleyes:

Is this not after hours?

marcsignal · 09-12-2008 08:07PM

vestanpance wrote: »

Is this not after hours?

well yeah its AH, but we're talking about something that resulted in a man being brutally shot, I don't consider that a matter for levity myself.

vestanpance · 09-12-2008 08:11PM

marcsignal wrote: »

well yeah its AH, but we're talking about something that resulted in a man being brutally shot, I don't consider that a matter for levity myself.

My bad

marcsignal · 09-12-2008 08:15PM

vestanpance wrote: »

My bad

your papers please

humankind · 09-12-2008 08:26PM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

And all you will hear in the papers is "Tight knit community shocked by mans killing"

When these little scummers probably were harassing him for the last few months.!!!

What were they doing then?
What were their parents doing?
Will they co-operate with the investigation,or will they see nothing?

YES WHAT WHERE NEIGHBOURS DOING? nothing!!!
I recently had to stop some kids (8-12yrs) from breaking trees, as I was tackling them people just walked by and ignored the cheek I got. Unless people get involved this will happen again. Yes I was afraid that my house or car would be damaged but I'm not going stand on the sidelines.

Terry · 09-12-2008 08:26PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Head. Sand. Ummm, this is nice and cosy

Blame is irrelevant. Blame him all you like, he doesn't care nor will it stop him re-offending. It won't bring back the poor man who got shot, nor will it stop something like this happening again.

What's your point here?

I was responding to all those who were calling for the heads of everyone bar the person who actually comitted the crime.
I was pointing out that it seems that nobody is looking at the actual perpetrator of the crime. Instead they were calling for heads to roll.

In this case here, what needs to be done is for the government to bring in harsher sentencing for young teens before this guy is tried.
As for the future, well that has yet to be written.

Dave! wrote: »

Compelling argument as ever Terry.

I don't think it's Wicknight's job to fix the justice system, he's just pointing out that it is currently broken. Dermot Ahern's yer man, give him a bell.

What's your point, Dave?
Getting a dig in at me?
Well done. You succeeded.
Do you have anything else to contribute to this thread, or are you just getting one in for your buddy?

marcsignal · 09-12-2008 08:30PM

Terry wrote: »

In this case here, what needs to be done is for the government to bring in harsher sentencing for young teens before this guy is tried.

+1 I couldn't agree more

irish_bob · 09-12-2008 10:11PM

my question is why had the gardai let this gang of delinquents continue to terrorise this man and his family

gurramok · 09-12-2008 11:15PM

irish_bob wrote: »

my question is why had the gardai let this gang of delinquents continue to terrorise this man and his family

Because the law is not on the victims side. The perpetrators are juveniles and would be let out within hours of a court appearance to terrorise again.

There is nothing a victim can do other than to run away, seriously.

Gavin · 09-12-2008 11:28PM

Does anybody think a normal run of the mill kid would attack/beat/maim/kill another person? No, they wouldn't and don't.

So, there must be something wrong with this kid, somat a bit wonky in his noggin. One element may be ****ty parents leading to the child being abused, beaten, assaulted, molested. Surely you can't deny that such things are going to influence the mentality of a child, particularly a child as they are so easily influenced. The child isn't going to have a normal worldview.

Other possibilities mental in nature. Perhaps the kid suffers from Faetal Alcohol Syndrome. The mother drank whilst pregnant. This can cause "functional disabilities (including poor memory, attention deficits, impulsive behavior, and poor cause-effect reasoning) as well as secondary disabilities (for example, mental health problems, and drug addiction)". Poor impulse control is the kicker, the inability to control oneself.

Maybe the kid has great, caring parents. Maybe there's nothing mentally wrong. Maybe the kid himself is just a 'bad' person for whatever reason. This is pretty rare though, there seems to nearly always be a reason.

Now suppose we could find out whatever caused this, whatever the reason is, the obvious thing is to try and prevent it happening with other kids. That's the point of social workers, lefties, wishye washies, hippies etc, whatever you want to call it. People trying to prevent this happening. Putting more Gardai on the streets helps with the symptoms, but does nothing to cure the problem. Increasing jail sentences does not result in lowered crime rates. Introducing the death penalty does not lower crime rates. The problem needs to be FIXED, not kicked under the rug, or shoved into a jail.

That doesn't address what to do with the current situation. The kid is obviously a danger and unfortunately, needs to go to jail, simply to keep him from harming others. When he's released I'd agree with him being tagged, put on a database, monitored, whatever. If he ever has children, they need to be watched vigilantly to ensure they are raised properly.

I'd also agree with social services being given more powers including removing children from abusive parents, parents taking drugs etc. Given that Fetal Alcohol Syndrome is so predominant, some way of monitoring or controling the mother during pregnancy to prevent harm to the child.

Either way, it's a complicated issue and needs to be addressed intelligently, not with more cops or handing out beatings.

jdivision · 09-12-2008 11:34PM

Verb, you're coming up with a lot of excuses for what could essentially be scumbags. Yes there are a lot of kids like that. maybe they don't use guns but that's because they don't have access to them. I grew up with a lot of scumbags, in a lot of cases they're that way cos they want to be. No other reason. In school i'd see people i knew come back after the summer hols with a new *rougher* accent and an attitude to match. Nothing had happened to them, they'd opted for that path and I know a lot of guys in jail now as a result. Others like me didn't.

Zombrex · 09-12-2008 11:40PM

Terry wrote: »

What's your point here?

My point is that blame is irrelevant. You can blame this guy all you like, that won't do anything.

Focusing all the attention on getting revenge on the criminal is ultimately pointless. It doesn't stop other things like this happening, and unless you kill or lock up forever the perp it doesn't stop him re-offending.

Blame is irrelevant. Criminals like this don't care if you blame them or not. In fact it just makes them want to go out and be more aggressive and violent.

Terry wrote: »

In this case here, what needs to be done is for the government to bring in harsher sentencing for young teens before this guy is tried.
As for the future, well that has yet to be written.

Why? Is that going to bring the dead man back? Nope. Is it going to stop things like this happening in the future? Doubtful (there is very little evidence that harsh sentencing ever dissuades future crime, in fact it seems to cause the opposite as criminals with more to lose are more likely to be violent)

So, again, what is the constructiveness of all things people are crying out for? They don't actually do anything bar fulfill some primitive revenge fantasy people have when they hear about things like this.

Zombrex · 09-12-2008 11:43PM

Terry wrote: »

So how will you fix the system?

Will you mollycoddle the poor little unfortunate people who happened to grow up on the wrong side of the tracks?

Yes if it reduces crime. Shocking idea I know, actually wanting to reduce crime and criminal behavior, rather than simply brutalize criminals after they have committed a crime :eek:

I mean do you want to actually reduce crime or not?

gillyfromlyre · 09-12-2008 11:50PM

Dragan wrote: »

Neither? Both? I am saying that the community needs to accept there own responsibility

There are many legal ways to take action against anti social behaviour.

This coming from a guy who just might kill someone if he goes home, sounds like a guy we should all listen too attentively, a bastion of wisdom

Gavin · 09-12-2008 11:51PM

jdivision wrote: »

Verb, you're coming up with a lot of excuses for what could essentially be scumbags. Yes there are a lot of kids like that. maybe they don't use guns but that's because they don't have access to them. I grew up with a lot of scumbags, in a lot of cases they're that way cos they want to be. No other reason. In school i'd see people i knew come back after the summer hols with a new *rougher* accent and an attitude to match. Nothing had happened to them, they'd opted for that path and I know a lot of guys in jail now as a result. Others like me didn't.

Look. People are 'scumbags' for a reason. How do you know nothing happened to the 'rougher' kids. Maybe they ended up hanging around with a dodgy crowd. Maybe they got bullied, decided they weren't going to take any more **** and figured they had to pick on others to look tough and not be a target.

Claims from people who grew up in a rough neighbourhood, but turned out great are missing the point. A larger percentage of people who grow up in poverty will commit crimes than those that grow up with more benefits. Of course there are people who will get out, but there will be more that don't !

Saying that people are 'scumbags' just does nothing, it achieves diddly squat.

Zombrex · 09-12-2008 11:59PM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

...if you read what I said....when he's in there attempt rehabilitation. :rolleyes:

So what? You actually agree with me, rehabilitation is the way to go. Brilliant, why are you arguing with me then?

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Social worker and a cup of tea and he'll be grand...........:rolleyes:

Ok, so now you don't agree with rehabilitation. Can you make up your mind

If a social worker and a "cup of tea" had even a slim chance of preventing this kid from killing this man would you have refused to give it to the child?

And of course I'm talking about a lot more than a cup of tea. Your flippant attitude to something that is a serious problem in Ireland (a man did just get shot by a 15 year old after all) is rather endemic of the problem.

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

That's the ticket. Every little toerag in the country gets a social worker and all our troubles will be solved.

If there was proper money spend on social workers and programs to prevent young offenders "graduating" to more serious crimes it would go a long way to avoiding situations just like this.

But then we don't get that because this bloody country is full of people who resent the very idea of spending any resources on doing anything to try and prevent youth crime while still complaining to the hills when, shockingly, a youth commits a violent crime. Cause and effect.

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Ever think that they maybe tried and it had no impact?

Given the sorry state of affairs in social working (over worked, under paid, under staffed) I seriously doubt it.

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I think it's pretty standard for state social workers and psychologists to talk to minors who've committed ofences.

Its not.

Ireland has a huge problem with lack of social workers across the board, but an area of particular problem is resources for young offenders. Barnardos make a big deal about this all the time. From their website -

83% of children in detention schools have at least one psychiatric disorder, engage in serious criminality and have significant deficits in emotional intelligence and cognitive ability. Many of these children have had suicidal tendencies, a significant number have an intellectual disability. If these needs are not addressed in the new detention school, the anti-social and criminal behaviour which has led to these children being detained in the first place will become the pattern of their adult lives. The focus must be on rehabilitation, care and diverting children from a future life of crime.

asdasd · 10-12-2008 01:59AM

That's the point of social workers, lefties, wishye washies, hippies etc, whatever you want to call it. People trying to prevent this happening.

We have had an acceleration in the number of social workers employed in the last 4 decades.

How's that working out for ya? Were 13 year olds killing 50 year olds in 1950-1990?

utick · 10-12-2008 04:34AM

this is the second time this year a 13 year old has been involved in a shooting in ireland, first one was in limerick a few months ago, when he was in court a couple of things he said were he always 'shoots with my left hand' and he also said he shot at the house because he felt like it. just goes to show these kids dont give a damn cause they know they arent going to be punished severly

Terry · 10-12-2008 04:42AM

Wicknight wrote: »

My point is that blame is irrelevant. You can blame this guy all you like, that won't do anything.

Focusing all the attention on getting revenge on the criminal is ultimately pointless. It doesn't stop other things like this happening, and unless you kill or lock up forever the perp it doesn't stop him re-offending.

Blame is irrelevant. Criminals like this don't care if you blame them or not. In fact it just makes them want to go out and be more aggressive and violent.

Why? Is that going to bring the dead man back? Nope. Is it going to stop things like this happening in the future? Doubtful (there is very little evidence that harsh sentencing ever dissuades future crime, in fact it seems to cause the opposite as criminals with more to lose are more likely to be violent)

So, again, what is the constructiveness of all things people are crying out for? They don't actually do anything bar fulfill some primitive revenge fantasy people have when they hear about things like this.

Wicknight wrote: »

Yes if it reduces crime. Shocking idea I know, actually wanting to reduce crime and criminal behavior, rather than simply brutalize criminals after they have committed a crime :eek:

I mean do you want to actually reduce crime or not?

Embedding pics in AH would be nice, but here's a link to a pic for you to click.
This will solve all of societies problems your way.

Click.

marcsignal · 10-12-2008 06:00AM

irish_bob wrote: »

my question is why had the gardai let this gang of delinquents continue to terrorise this man and his family

i'd like to know that too, but unfortunately the gardai will tell you that even if they do arrest/caution them for anti social behaviour, they'll either ignore the caution, and or be back out on the street in a matter of hours because of our revolving door courts system, giving the two fingers tothe garda that arrested them.

Wicknight wrote: »

If there was proper money spend on social workers and programs to prevent young offenders "graduating" to more serious crimes it would go a long way to avoiding situations just like this.

But then we don't get that because this bloody country is full of people who resent the very idea of spending any resources on doing anything to try and prevent youth crime while still complaining to the hills when, shockingly, a youth commits a violent crime. Cause and effect.

Simply throwing money at this problem, in terms of just employing more social workers, is totally pointless, unless it goes hand in hand with giving them more powers of access to the childs home, powers to take children out of abusive/harmful home environments, and reform of the law in regard to youth crime.

gurramok · 10-12-2008 09:16AM

I'd support the German example you listed earlier, giving more powers and checks to authorities to take at risk kids away from neglectful parents.

jtsuited · 10-12-2008 09:39AM

here's a thought:

these kids in poor areas that get involved in violent crime are unwanted children born to uneducated parents who (let's be honest here) don't give a flying fcuk about their kids. It's a much larger problem than anything that could be solved by 'stringing them up'.

So let's legalise abortion and less of these kids will be born. Less of them means less of a problem.

In the US 20 years after the Roe V Wade case, crime rates dropped significantly. Now everybody tried to say it was because of zero tolerance blah blah blah, but when the figures were properly analysed, the legalisation of abortion 20 years previous had been the real factor (there's a great book, Freakonomics, that presents this theory in great detail).

*awaits Catholic onslaught*

Zulu · 10-12-2008 09:51AM

jtsuited wrote: »

here's a thought:

these kids in poor areas that get involved in violent crime are unwanted children born to uneducated parents who (let's be honest here) don't give a flying fcuk about their kids. It's a much larger problem than anything that could be solved by 'stringing them up'.

So let's legalise abortion and less of these kids will be born. Less of them means less of a problem.

Abortion is legal in both England and the US, yet they still have massive crime issue.
How does that work out for you???
:rolleyes:

*awaits Catholic onslaught*

Fail on the generic ignorant comment. It's pretty sad you can't make your point with out attempting to insult an opposing view.

jtsuited · 10-12-2008 09:57AM

Zulu wrote: »

Abortion is legal in both England and the US, yet they still have massive crime issue.
How does that work out for you???
:rolleyes:

as was said in my post there is a lot of evidence (and a lot of economists who have advocated the view) that the Roe V Wade case was the most important factor in a significant decrease in crime in the US in the 1990's.

Hence the reason I mentioned it.

That's how it works out for me.

Fail on not reading my post.

jtsuited · 10-12-2008 10:01AM

Zulu wrote: »

Fail on the generic ignorant comment. It's pretty sad you can't make your point with out attempting to insult an opposing view.

'awaiting catholic onslaught' is not an attempt to insult an opposing view. It means I'm anticipating the usual arguments against abortion propagated in this country most vocally by the Catholic church and Catholic groups.

You seem to have taken it as 'if you disagree, you must be catholic', which is of course untrue.
I suggest that next time you want to call a comment 'generic' and 'ignorant' or to be more accurate 'generic ignorant', you should actually read what is said in the post.

Zulu · 10-12-2008 10:59AM

jtsuited wrote: »

as was said in my post there is a lot of evidence (and a lot of economists who have advocated the view) that the Roe V Wade case was the most important factor in a significant decrease in crime in the US in the 1990's.

Thats nice, but we both know this was not the silver bullet for either the US or the UK as they still have the problem. Don't they?
So, besides the fact that you don't actually offer any proof, we both know this isn't a valid solution to the problem.

That's how it works out for me.

And yet it hasn't worked for either the US or the UK. Has it?

Fail on not reading my post.

I read your post.

'awaiting catholic onslaught' is not an attempt to insult an opposing view.

And yet it is just that. You made a point, and you offered and prejudice aspersion to anyone who'd dare to contest it.

jtsuited · 10-12-2008 12:01PM

Zulu wrote: »

And yet it hasn't worked for either the US or the UK. Has it?

.

And my point was that there is a very credible theory amongst economists, criminologists and others that in the US the crime rate decrease in the 90's was directly related to the legalisation of abortion 20 years previous.

If this is actually the case then yes it has 'worked' for the US (I don't know of any similar study in the UK, so I can't comment on it).

here's a start on what is a hotly debated topic link

there is a huge amount of debate about this theory but i'll let you see for yourself.

Man murdered by youth(s) after home attacked(yes it happened in Ireland)

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