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buy irish..employ irish

12467…18

Comments

  • #92
    whitser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭whitser


    gandalf wrote: »
    See the quote above you have clearly stated that they are working 7 days a week and 16 hour days.



    Again you are clearly saying that they are working long hours and they are working for less than minimum wage. If that's the case you and others in your position have a duty to report these employers. If you don't bother then it is entirely your fault that this situation continues.

    Because you have a family or mortgage does not automatically guarantee you a job and it shouldn't.
    not below the minium wage below the trade rate. there's men on sites doing work for 10 euro an hour when thay should be on 20. i learnt a trade,passed exams worked hard so i could earn a good wage. now there's men working for half that. tradesmen from abroad are doing skilled jobs for half the rate.


  • #93
    --amadeus--
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,095 ✭✭✭--amadeus--


    OP could you please clarify something cos I'm a little confused.

    You would prefer that irish were employed ahead of non-irish, correct?
    But you are not advocating "sending them home", correct?

    Does that mean that you want them all to go on the dole and sponge off our taxes? ;)

    Anyway I may not agree with the capitalist system but it's what we've got, we all live or die by market forces these days. And the market dictates the price you get for your goods and services. I appreciate the fact that you have experience and time served / certs in your trade. I understand that you value your time as worth (for example) €20/hour. However if the market can supply an equally skilled worker (who is more flexible on the hours he is willing to work) for half that rate then (I am afraid) you are over-valuing yourself.

    I know of a neighbour in construction who spent a month out of work having run his own company. He bit the bullet, accepted that times have changed and has accepted a job a two hour drive away that will involve him leaving home at 6am, working 12 hours and driving home. He's not complaining about people taking his job or his living. He's adapting. It's not nice but then neither are the current conditions.

    So I think the kernel of your argument isn't foreigners getting jobs. In fact the root issue here is that you can no longer generate the higher rate or dictate working hours. I'm afraid that that's the way capitalism works - sucks, doesn't it?


  • #94
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    whitser wrote: »
    not below the minium wage below the trade rate. there's men on sites doing work for 10 euro an hour when thay should be on 20. i learnt a trade,passed exams worked hard so i could earn a good wage. now there's men working for half that. tradesmen from abroad are doing skilled jobs for half the rate.
    Take that to its logical conclusion and you have the ESB, with the average wage being multiples of the average industrial wage, and all of us paying through the nose for electricity as a direct result.

    In a competitive marketplace, prices go down. That should and does include the price of labour.


  • #95
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    whitser wrote: »
    not below the minium wage below the trade rate. there's men on sites doing work for 10 euro an hour when thay should be on 20. i learnt a trade,passed exams worked hard so i could earn a good wage. now there's men working for half that. tradesmen from abroad are doing skilled jobs for half the rate.

    Is there not an agreed Trade rate or is this just for unionised staff.

    Rates of Pay pdf

    from this page

    http://www.labourcourt.ie/Labour/Information.nsf/AllByUNID/E2771E4911FEC84980256A1C002C85AB?OpenDocument

    From what I can see that's been decided by the Labour Court. Again if they are in contravention of this I would suggest contacting the Court or the applicable union.


  • #96
    whitser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭whitser


    gandalf wrote: »
    See the quote above you have clearly stated that they are working 7 days a week and 16 hour days.



    Again you are clearly saying that they are working long hours and they are working for less than minimum wage. If that's the case you and others in your position have a duty to report these employers. If you don't bother then it is entirely your fault that this situation continues.

    Because you have a family or mortgage does not automatically guarantee you a job and it shouldn't.
    having a family and mortgage doesnt mean i should get a job but having a trade that i learned here and bieng from here should go in my favour.


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  • #97
    whitser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭whitser


    --amadeus-- wrote: »
    OP could you please clarify something cos I'm a little confused.

    You would prefer that irish were employed ahead of non-irish, correct?
    But you are not advocating "sending them home", correct?

    Does that mean that you want them all to go on the dole and sponge off our taxes? ;)

    Anyway I may not agree with the capitalist system but it's what we've got, we all live or die by market forces these days. And the market dictates the price you get for your goods and services. I appreciate the fact that you have experience and time served / certs in your trade. I understand that you value your time as worth (for example) €20/hour. However if the market can supply an equally skilled worker (who is more flexible on the hours he is willing to work) for half that rate then (I am afraid) you are over-valuing yourself.

    I know of a neighbour in construction who spent a month out of work having run his own company. He bit the bullet, accepted that times have changed and has accepted a job a two hour drive away that will involve him leaving home at 6am, working 12 hours and driving home. He's not complaining about people taking his job or his living. He's adapting. It's not nice but then neither are the current conditions.

    So I think the kernel of your argument isn't foreigners getting jobs. In fact the root issue here is that you can no longer generate the higher rate or dictate working hours. I'm afraid that that's the way capitalism works - sucks, doesn't it?
    who said sponge off our dole,they are economic migrants they'll simply go where there's work. believe me if and when im laid off i'll do whatever i have to to pay bills but doesnt make it easy to swallow that i cant find work when there's poles and russians still getting a wage on sites.
    its easy to spout about free markets when your rate isnt being driven down.


  • #98
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    whitser wrote: »
    if its unpatriotic to shop across the border??then surley its unpatriotic to employ a foreign worker whos sending home most of their wages back home rather then spending it here, when theres plenty of irish men/women struggling to survive on the dole.
    please no more silly nazi remarks.

    There are tens of thousands of immigrants that have worked and contributed to the irish economy over the past several years. They deserve to be looked after just like any other tax paying citizen.
    Incidentally their graft and tax revenues are so appreciated by the government that they have seen fit to not spend one cent to alleviate the tens of thousands in the queue for citizenship and residency. That's while charging them an immigrant tax annually of (now) €150.
    Nazi remarks stand!


  • #99
    Executive Steve
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭Executive Steve


    SeanW wrote: »
    Ah, yes, anyone who takes even a mildly conservative view of immigrantion must be a Nazi.

    Sorry, but you just failed Godwin's Law.




    OT, i know - but i've always wondered does Godwin's law work over on Stormfront...


    :pac:


  • #100
    --amadeus--
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,095 ✭✭✭--amadeus--


    So then you do want them to go home?

    And why should you having learned a trade here mean more than someone learning a trade elsewhere? A brick is a brick - and yes, I have worked in construction and have family in various trades. I said I don't agree with the whole free trade market forces thing, I'm an old fashioned red leftie at heart. But I'm also a democrat, we voted in this shower, we enjoyed the good times, now we have to endure the hangover (and believe me running a small business makes me as vulnerable as anyone else). Like it or not you have to compete with everyone for a job, no point looking for an employ irish campaign to give you an advantage.


  • #101
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #102
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    Mena wrote: »
    That's a gross generalisation. I've never sent a a cent back to my country of birth.

    Me either


    Another gross generalisation. Some of us are here earning in excess of a 6 figure salary.

    Can I have a six figure salary please?


  • #103
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    :eek:


  • #104
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    whitser wrote: »
    basically bosses want men who can work every hour that they want. a migrant worker whos family is back home can work 16 hr days 7 days a week if he wants but a family man living here cant. also i think employers will take advantage of migrant workers easier then irish because they dont always know their rights etc...

    Then join a union and fight like hell for better working conditions for everyone.
    You are taking the typical bait that is thrown to the sweaty masses when there is an economic downturn. Governments and employers like to pit the locals and the "others" against each other. It takes the pressure off the people that are responsible for the mess in the first place.


  • #105
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    In a competitive marketplace, prices go down. That should and does include the price of labour.

    OT Strangely CEO pay never seems to though. :)


  • #106
    whitser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭whitser


    im in a union. and i marched a few years back in town against the explotation of foreign workers. but hey its a free market, so im told. if someone wants to work for less then trade rate good luck to him.
    i resent the nazi remark.
    sure why have trade rates and minium wage. if somone is happy to work for 5 euro then who are we to stop him.


  • #107
    RiverWilde
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭RiverWilde


    whitser wrote: »
    look im not blaming lads being out of work on foreigners. what im saying is now that work is scarce shouldnt we look after our own?


    So back in the day when every tom, dick and harry was taking the boat to the UK mainland the employers over there should have said, 'right bugger off back to rainy auld Ireland ye foreigner.' Is that what you're saying?

    Riv


  • #108
    whitser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭whitser


    sovtek wrote: »
    There are tens of thousands of immigrants that have worked and contributed to the irish economy over the past several years. They deserve to be looked after just like any other tax paying citizen.
    Incidentally their graft and tax revenues are so appreciated by the government that they have seen fit to not spend one cent to alleviate the tens of thousands in the queue for citizenship and residency. That's while charging them an immigrant tax annually of (now) €150.
    Nazi remarks stand!
    im paying taxes a long time too. so im quite entitled to ask why i and my friends are signing on while there's migrants still getting work.


  • #109
    whitser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭whitser


    RiverWilde wrote: »
    So back in the day when every tom, dick and harry was taking the boat to the UK mainland the employers over there should have said, 'right bugger off back to rainy auld Ireland ye foreigner.' Is that what you're saying?

    Riv
    no.


  • #110
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    whitser wrote: »
    if somone is happy to work for 5 euro then who are we to stop him.

    Last time I say this, IF this is true then you report them. If you or others working in the industry don't then you have yourselves to blame for letting it continue. The laws exist but they need people to act like citizens and report wrongdoers to enforce them.


  • #111
    RiverWilde
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭RiverWilde


    whitser wrote: »
    no.

    I'm sorry but no matter how you dress it up ... that's what it sounds like.

    Riv


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  • #112
    whitser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭whitser


    gandalf wrote: »
    Last time I say this, IF this is true then you report them. If you or others working in the industry don't then you have yourselves to blame for letting it continue. The laws exist but they need people to act like citizens and report wrongdoers to enforce them.
    but its a free market. there's a minium wage in ireland. but you can employ a polish plumber to do work once you pay him 8 euro an hour. race to bottom, springs to mind.


  • #113
    whitser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭whitser


    RiverWilde wrote: »
    I'm sorry but no matter how you dress it up ... that's what it sounds like.

    Riv
    well its not what im sayimg. im saying do your best to employ irish workers now that work is so scarce, and residents not economic migrants its harder for us to pack up and follow the work.


  • #114
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    whitser wrote: »
    but its a free market. there's a minium wage in ireland. but you can employ a polish plumber to do work once you pay him 8 euro an hour. race to bottom, springs to mind.
    What you're saying is that employers should make a point of employing Irish tradesmen at €20 per hour, and shun the equally qualified and at least equally hardworking Polish tradesmen?

    Harking back to the OP - do you think that people shouldn't cross the border, but should stay at home and pay substantially higher prices?


  • #115
    Dob74
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    --amadeus-- wrote: »
    So then you do want them to go home?

    And why should you having learned a trade here mean more than someone learning a trade elsewhere? A brick is a brick - and yes, I have worked in construction and have family in various trades. I said I don't agree with the whole free trade market forces thing, I'm an old fashioned red leftie at heart. But I'm also a democrat, we voted in this shower, we enjoyed the good times, now we have to endure the hangover (and believe me running a small business makes me as vulnerable as anyone else). Like it or not you have to compete with everyone for a job, no point looking for an employ irish campaign to give you an advantage.


    One problem, the employer that hires foreign workers on cheap rates will have a competitive advantage. Leading to irish workers being laid off. Construction wage rates are supposed to be fixed so no one will gain competitive advantage with low pay but this is not enforced so at the moment there is plenty of work for non-irish and irish are being sent to the dole queue. All irish taxpayers are also bailing out the banks which is in turn bailing out big business. The one thing I would do is charge 5000 for every foreign worker a company hires. I bet irish workers wouldn't to be too bad after all.


  • #116
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    whitser wrote: »
    but its a free market. there's a minium wage in ireland. but you can employ a polish plumber to do work once you pay him 8 euro an hour. race to bottom, springs to mind.

    You just said €5 an hour a couple of posts ago, just like you said earlier they were working 16hr days 7days a week. Can you please make your mind up about what you are saying please?


  • #117
    whitser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭whitser


    there's a trade rate in ireland. all workers should be payed the rate. polish or irish.


  • #118
    whitser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭whitser


    gandalf wrote: »
    You just said €5 an hour a couple of posts ago, just like you said earlier they were working 16hr days 7days a week. Can you please make your mind up about what you are saying please?
    my point was as people were saying, there's a free market. if thats the case why bother with a minium wage.


  • #119
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    whitser wrote: »
    there's a trade rate in ireland. all workers should be payed the rate. polish or irish.
    Is that a legal requirement?


  • #120
    whitser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭whitser


    no


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  • #121
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


This discussion has been closed.
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