buy irish..employ irish

whitser

the powers that be are telling everyone to be patriotic and buy irish. maybe then they can also call on employers to only employ irish. the party's over now and its time we started to look after our own. there's plenty of good irish workers out there looking for work.

CerebralCortex

Seig Hail!!

whitser

obviously your not an unemployed contruction worker. this isnt a racist comment. racism means to feel superiour to other races. im just saying should we not be helping irish people to get through the recession first?

whitser

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Seig Hail!!

thats another thing that pxsses me off. if you dare to question anything to do with immigration your fobbed off as a nazi.

mikemac

Typical response above in post 2

But yes, in past years it was difficult to get a summer jobs when you are competing against thousands of others.
And going by this weeks Primetime, you are competing against many people who won't or can't speak up for themselves and are willing to get under minimum wage. Undercutting everyone else.

I've worked in a small hotel of 19 staff.
Only 3 of us were Irish. And when you have guests commenting on it, you know you have a problem.

CerebralCortex

Nope we should help anyone who pays or has paid taxes. I have many close relations in the construction sector who are out of work not because of people who came here to work but because poor economic conditions world wide and also due to the fact of having construction as one of the pillars of the economy. Which of course is a big mistake. Now there isn't much that can be done for all those who were misguided enough to believe an unbridled construction boom was sustainable.

sink

micmclo wrote: »

Typical response above in post 2

But yes, in past years it was difficult to get a summer jobs when you are competing against thousands of others.
And going by this weeks Primetime, you are competing against many people who won't or can't speak up for themselves and are willing to get under minimum wage. Undercutting everyone else.

I've worked in a small hotel of 19 staff.
Only 3 of us were Irish. And when you have guests commenting on it, you know you have a problem.

My family ran a few restaurants up until a few years ago and you couldn't find two decent Irish employee's to rub together. No self respecting Irish person wanted to serve tables, if it wasn't for foreigners the restaurants would've gone under. All were paid decent wages and legal.

whitser

if its unpatriotic to shop across the border??then surley its unpatriotic to employ a foreign worker whos sending home most of their wages back home rather then spending it here, when theres plenty of irish men/women struggling to survive on the dole.
please no more silly nazi remarks.

whitser

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Nope we should help anyone who pays or has paid taxes. I have many close relations in the construction sector who are out of work not because of people who came here to work but because poor economic conditions world wide and also due to the fact of having construction as one of the pillars of the economy. Which of course is a big mistake. Now there isn't much that can be done for all those who were misguided enough to believe an unbridled construction boom was sustainable.

look im not blaming lads being out of work on foreigners. what im saying is now that work is scarce shouldnt we look after our own?

mikemac

I must have been someone with no self respect so as it's was the only job I could get to stay off the dole
Never worked in construction but I sure worked in many hotels

CerebralCortex

whitser wrote: »

if its unpatriotic to shop across the border??then surley its unpatriotic to employ a foreign worker whos sending home most of their wages back home rather then spending it here, when theres plenty of irish men/women struggling to survive on the dole.
please no more silly nazi remarks.

They can do what they like what the money they make thats why we have income tax. There is plenty of Irish people who ride the social welfare system at least those that came here to work actually worked which means in way they want to be part of our economy.

oscarBravo

whitser wrote: »

if its unpatriotic to shop across the border??then surley its unpatriotic to employ a foreign worker whos sending home most of their wages back home rather then spending it here, when theres plenty of irish men/women struggling to survive on the dole.

Neither is unpatriotic.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

CerebralCortex

whitser wrote: »

look im not blaming lads being out of work on foreigners. what im saying is now that work is scarce shouldnt we look after our own?

Have you been disenfranchised recently? I would consider my friends and associates living raising famillies here as my own. Where would you draw the line? Do you forget how important these people are to a grossly under populated nation?

Executive Steve

Can we make them wear yellow stars for a few months before we send them home?

julius128

in General (Not in all cases) foreigners are getting more involved into work and willing to work much harder, that is probably the reason employers wish to have foreigners.

jmayo

whitser wrote: »

if its unpatriotic to shop across the border??then surley its unpatriotic to employ a foreign worker whos sending home most of their wages back home rather then spending it here, when theres plenty of irish men/women struggling to survive on the dole.
please no more silly nazi remarks.

There would be no silly Nazi remarks if you didn't try and drag "jobs for the Irish only" remark into all this in the first place.

Foreign workers are here because there were lots of jobs Irish people would not do, either becuase of what the jobs were or how much the pay was.
As we have learnt lately Irish scum employers wnated slave labour.

Why didn't the ones that have been on the dole for the last 7/8 years get off their ar*** and do these jobs and demand fair pay?
No, what they did was continue to sponge off the state, then they went round mouthing about foreigners coming here taking our jobs.

As for sending money home to their own country, why don't you ask lots of older people in this country how they survived through the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s because family members went to work in Uk or further afield and sent money home.
Or perhaps your family was one of the very few lucky ones that had no emmigrants :rolleyes:
And yes I am resurrecting the old chestnut of "we were emmigrants so why shouldn't others come to our coutnry if they are willing to work and contribute".
I suppose you would also be pro getting green cards for our own in the USA.

BTW what will you like the Poles to say when it will be us that are over in their country seeking work ?

It is always easy to start blaming foreigners or minorities when times get tough. History is litered with such instances.
It is a surprise that no one in our government had started on this line yet.

Fratton Fred

what about all the Irish overseas? should they all be forced to return as well or should other countries happily employ them, in a do "One rule for us" type situation.

By the way, once you've got me sacked from my job for being an immigrant, are you going to pay to look after my Irish wife and family?

just asking.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

midlandsmissus

whitser wrote: »

obviously your not an unemployed contruction worker. this isnt a racist comment. racism means to feel superiour to other races. im just saying should we not be helping irish people to get through the recession first?

Yes but what is your definition of 'irish'. Would you think it would be okay to go and work in England as a matter of interest?

O'Morris

We had the option along with other European countries to restrict access to the Eastern Europeans at the time of EU enlargement a few years ago. In hindsight we would have been better off if we had restricted that access as we wouldn't be in the position now of having to support tens of thousands of extra workers on the dole. It would also be much easier for people on the dole to get back into employment as the competition for the available jobs would not have been as intense.

silverharp

last time I looked we were still in the EU, so the discussion is useless. Personally even though I am Irish I have more in common with some non nationals then I do with some Irish people, so who is anyone to judge who is worthy or not to stay/work in the country
I have never seen a country increase its prosperity by enacting immigration barriers retrospectively

Acacia

jmayo wrote: »

BTW what will you like the Poles to say when it will be us that are over in their country seeking work ?

Why would Irish people be going to Poland to seek work? Surely we would go to the more 'traditional' countries like the U.S. and Australia?

As for the rest of your post, I would largely agree with the sentiment behind it. However, I think the OP has the right to ask the question without the old Nazi/ racism card thrown about. It adds nothing to the discussion, imo.

ChocolateSauce

sink wrote: »

My family ran a few restaurants up until a few years ago and you couldn't find two decent Irish employee's to rub together. No self respecting Irish person wanted to serve tables, if it wasn't for foreigners the restaurants would've gone under. All were paid decent wages and legal.

I'm not at all disagreeing with you, but why is it that I could never find a waiting job? They always wanted someone with 1-2 years experience!

purple'n'gold

whitser wrote: »

thats another thing that pxsses me off. if you dare to question anything to do with immigration your fobbed off as a nazi.

I was just browsing through this thread and did not really intend to comment until I seen this Seig Hail nonsense. It really annoys me when uninformed people try and smear every one they disagree with on any subject concerning immigration or other nationalities as Nazis. They should try and educate themselves as to who the Nazis were. And I mean real Nazis. Not half witted skin head thugs who only attack when the odds are 10 to 1 in their favour. I’ll start them off in their quest for knowledge. Real Nazis were probably the most dangerous people that ever walked the earth. Check out the detail for yourselves. Start here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchenwald

Fratton Fred

O'Morris wrote: »

We had the option along with other European countries to restrict access to the Eastern Europeans at the time of EU enlargement a few years ago. In hindsight we would have been better off if we had restricted that access as we wouldn't be in the position now of having to support tens of thousands of extra workers on the dole. It would also be much easier for people on the dole to get back into employment as the competition for the available jobs would not have been as intense.

I don't think Ireland did have a choice in reality. Ireland was qui9te happy to take the EU's money, I would be very surprised if that didn't come with strings attached. It would have also created a massive skills shortage in this country.

Mr.Micro

Originally Posted by O'Morris
We had the option along with other European countries to restrict access to the Eastern Europeans at the time of EU enlargement a few years ago. In hindsight we would have been better off if we had restricted that access as we wouldn't be in the position now of having to support tens of thousands of extra workers on the dole. It would also be much easier for people on the dole to get back into employment as the competition for the available jobs would not have been as intense.

Where would Ireland be now if that happened? Nowhere, a third world country on the periphery of Europe. We have long wanted to be in the big boys club and now that we got there in the last 10 years or so, it is not to the likeing of many. There is a price to pay for everything. We cannot just cut ourselves off when it suits. We took the EU money for decades, then squandered it or at least those that got it did and often did not put it to the use it was obtained for. If we had a proper Government with at least one brain, the economic success would have been built upon, but no the plan was to build and build and build, and thats probably still the plan.

ShooterSF

purplengold wrote: »

I was just browsing through this thread and did not really intend to comment until I seen this Seig Hail nonsense. It really annoys me when uninformed people try and smear every one they disagree with on any subject concerning immigration or other nationalities as Nazis. They should try and educate themselves as to who the Nazis were. And I mean real Nazis. Not half witted skin head thugs who only attack when the odds are 10 to 1 in their favour. I’ll start them off in their quest for knowledge. Real Nazis were probably the most dangerous people that ever walked the earth. Check out the detail for yourselves. Start here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchenwald

Agreed. Plenty of users here that if you called our government trying to push through a certain european treaty fascist would be quick to point out, righfully, the difference. I remember some posters getting infuriated when it was compared to Zimbabwe.
Yet it's fine to compare discussing immigration laws to the Nazis during the 40's? :eek:
Bull.

oscarBravo

I shouldn't have to keep saying this, but if you have a problem with a post, report it. Complaining about posts in-thread just drags the conversation off-topic.

SeanW

[cm]tyranny wrote: »

Can we make them wear yellow stars for a few months before we send them home?

Ah, yes, anyone who takes even a mildly conservative view of immigrantion must be a Nazi.

Sorry, but you just failed Godwin's Law.

whitser

look i've worked with lads on site from all over the place. most were good genuine workers. in fact with an old boss i actually helped them to get paid properly cos the dirt bag i used to work for was paying them below the trade rate. so i have no problem with foreign workers. but when most of my friends are out of work now or will be at xmass,probably myself included, its hard to see why any jobs that are still on sites are filled by foreign workers.
i can only speak from personnal experience in the construction industry,but most poles are here in the short term so wouldnt it help our economy to make sure men with mortgages and long term ties to the country are in work.

O'Morris

Fratton Fred wrote:

I don't think Ireland did have a choice in reality.

Of course we had a choice. Every other country had a choice, including those countries like Spain and Portugal who have benefited as much from EU membership as we have. Most countries (including Spain and Portugal) sensibly restricted access to Eastern European workers at the time of EU enlargement because they knew the consequences of allowing unrestricted access to millions of people from countries where the average is only a fraction of the EU average. We had a choice as well when we restricted access to the Romanians and the Bulgarians a year or two later. Could you imagine how much more difficult things would be now if we given the Bulgarians and Romanians unrestricted access as well?

Fratton Fred wrote:

Ireland was qui9te happy to take the EU's money, I would be very surprised if that didn't come with strings attached.

Would those be different strings than the ones that were attached to the money that the Spanish and the Portuguese received?

Fratton Fred wrote:

It would have also created a massive skills shortage in this country.

If this country had a massive skills shortage then we could have had a liberal work permit system that would have allowed people in Eastern Europe to apply for a vacancy in this country that could not have been filled from the available pool of labour in this country. If we had done that we would have had an immigration system that really was tied to the needs of the economy. When we allowed unrestricted access to the Eastern Europeans we had a system that was tied to the immigrants needs, not our needs. Any Pole or other Eastern European could move here whether there was a need for their skills or not. The economy was able to absorb it at the time because we were in the middle of a construction boom and consumer binge. Now that we're in a recession though and as the long-term expectations for the economy are for modest growth, we're going to find it much more difficult to utilise that surplus labour. The people who will lose out will be the low-wage workers in the country who will have to compete with all the cheap foreign labour. People like David McWilliams have been warning about this for years but nobody took any heed.

Mr.Micro wrote:

Where would Ireland be now if that happened? Nowhere, a third world country on the periphery of Europe.

What are you talking about? Are you saying Ireland would a third world country on the periphery of Europe if we hadn't allowed unrestricted access to workers from Eastern Europe?

gandalf

Acacia wrote: »

Why would Irish people be going to Poland to seek work? Surely we would go to the more 'traditional' countries like the U.S. and Australia?

Traditional Countries? Why wouldn't they go and work in Poland. If there is a need for workers the Irish have never been shy or retiring. Sure in the 80's and early 90's an awful lot of Irish worked in construction in Germany.

Let's not forget the legions that went to the UK over the years and if you are looking for work in the construction industry then you'll probably be working in the UK on the Olympic project in London.

We're in the EU, we accepted all the help and positives of that. On the flipside we have to accept that there is freedom of movement for citizens of the EU and ergo freedom of employment. If there are workers as I feel is suggested in this thread who are being employed under the legal wage limit then the employers need to be reported. Nothing will change if you just whinge on an internet forum.

--amadeus--

Ireland has benifited more from the freedoms of the EU than probably any other country. It's a nonsense to think though that it could be all take and no give. And during the boom most people had little or no problem with having a Polish waitress or an eastern european cleaner. Now that times are a bit tighter attitudes seem to be changing. "Irish jobs for Irish people" - quite apart from the unpleasent echo of "No Dogs / No Blacks / No Irish" it really misses teh point pretty spectacularly.

What you are discussing here is a migrant workforce. By definition a migrant workforce is one that moves from location to location to work. The Poles (for example) came here because there was plentiful work, easily found and at a decent (by thier local standards) wage. Now that work has dried up do you really think that a migrant worker is going to sit on his bum and draw the dole?

Of course not! If he/she had the gumption to get off thier backsides, leave hearth and home and go to a country where they didn't speak the language so they could find a good job then they are hardly going to stick around attempting to live off benifits! I hate to break it to you but Ireland has lousy weather and is phenominally expensive. If you aren't earning there isn't much to keep you here so you'll up sticks and go to the next place that has a decent job offer.

Additionally if there are foreign workers still onsite and Irish workers have been laid off from teh same site you have to face an akward question. Why were they kept on (by an Irish employer) when Irish people weren't? Maybe they were better at thier job?

You can't have the advantages of an open economy without the drawbacks, it's a competitive world out there and if you can't cut it without state assistance (in teh form of protected jobs) then you need to re-train or re-think (or move to another country!)

O'Morris

gandalf wrote:

Traditional Countries? Why wouldn't they go and work in Poland.

Because the average wage in Poland is much lower than it is in Ireland.

gandalf wrote:

We're in the EU, we accepted all the help and positives of that. On the flipside we have to accept that their is freedom of movement for citizens of the EU and ergo freedom of employment.

I thought you were about to say "On the flipside we have to accept the negatives".

gandalf

O'Morris wrote: »

Because the average wage in Poland is much lower than it is in Ireland.

Is it higher than the dole?

I thought you were about to say "On the flipside we have to accept the negatives".

Well you were mistaken.

O'Morris

--amadeus-- wrote:

Now that work has dried up do you really think that a migrant worker is going to sit on his bum and draw the dole?

There is some evidence that large numbers of immigrants are deciding to stay on the dole in this country. According to this article, of the 38,500 foreign nationals on the dole in July of this year, 15,000 are from the 10 accession countries that joined the EU in 2004, and 10,000 are from other overseas countries. Those figures are from July, I don't know what the current figures are.

ntlbell

micmclo wrote: »

I've worked in a small hotel of 19 staff.
Only 3 of us were Irish. And when you have guests commenting on it, you know you have a problem.

Yes, you know you have rude and ignorant guests.

No other problem tho

jmayo

Acacia wrote: »

Why would Irish people be going to Poland to seek work? Surely we would go to the more 'traditional' countries like the U.S. and Australia?

As for the rest of your post, I would largely agree with the sentiment behind it. However, I think the OP has the right to ask the question without the old Nazi/ racism card thrown about. It adds nothing to the discussion, imo.

Have you seen the state the US is in, they ain't going to be handing out massive amoutns of green cards and illegals are not as tolerated these days ?
Have you seen the state the UK is in ?
The only thing they have going for them is the Olympics.

Australia, particularly WA has been booming but a lot of that is down to China and it's thirst for resources. WA agricultural economy is on the rocks due to drought so all they have is their mines.
With a slow down in China due to decrease in Western states buying their goods, how will Australia manage ?

So maybe the countries offering us jobs in the future will be in Central and Eastern Europe.

I would say the probable reason that the OP was labelled a Nazi is because his statement "jobs just for the Irish" and dump out the foreign workers would come straight from a National Front type of party. Like it or not these typeof parties would be termed NAZIs or at least they are sympathetic to some of the goals of the Nazis.

whitser wrote: »

look i've worked with lads on site from all over the place. most were good genuine workers. in fact with an old boss i actually helped them to get paid properly cos the dirt bag i used to work for was paying them below the trade rate. so i have no problem with foreign workers. but when most of my friends are out of work now or will be at xmass,probably myself included, its hard to see why any jobs that are still on sites are filled by foreign workers.
i can only speak from personnal experience in the construction industry,but most poles are here in the short term so wouldnt it help our economy to make sure men with mortgages and long term ties to the country are in work.

Whitser you cannot have a system where you turf out foreign workers when things slow down and give the jobs to locals only.
For a start that is protectionism and EU will not allow it.
Secondly what happens down the road if the UK do it and send home the Irish working there. British workers used not like "the Paddies" coming over taking their jobs either. We Irish have always been emigrants and some were short termers, including my own family members, doing the exact same thing as the Poles or Czechs.

I know from experience and friends' experience that they got better deals and it appears better quality work from some of your foreign colleagues.
Lastly the foreign worker may be willing to work for less, because they are living way cheaper than their Irish competitors.
Sadly some scum employers use this and affectively treat the foreign workers about as good as slaves. They know they get away with it with foreign workers which they couldn't with locals.

BTW from experience I know what it is like to be laid off at Christmas.
I was made redundant the day people finished for Christmas. Not nice when the company next door is going out to pub to celebrate Christmas and you know you have no job to come back to.

gandalf

You only can get the dole if you have been employed for 2 years and paid PRSI. If people are claiming the full dole then they have worked within the requirements and are entitled to it.

Surely you are not suggesting that benefits are with held from people who have worked and built up the necessary points ?

whitser

who said turf anyone out? but if the government is calling on workers to be patriotic and shop at home then they should call on greedy employers, especially builders to be patriotic and make sure any jobs that are going are filled by irish men who are here to stay not economic migrant workers. does that make me a nazi???

Mena

whitser wrote: »

if its unpatriotic to shop across the border??then surley its unpatriotic to employ a foreign worker whos sending home most of their wages back home rather then spending it here, when theres plenty of irish men/women struggling to survive on the dole.
please no more silly nazi remarks.

That's a gross generalisation. I've never sent a a cent back to my country of birth.

jmayo wrote: »

There would be no silly Nazi remarks if you didn't try and drag "jobs for the Irish only" remark into all this in the first place.

Foreign workers are here because there were lots of jobs Irish people would not do, either becuase of what the jobs were or how much the pay was.

Another gross generalisation. Some of us are here earning in excess of a 6 figure salary.

brianthebard

gandalf wrote: »

Is it higher than the dole?

No. A girl in my course was a secondary school teacher making 200 a month.

whitser

i know we irish did the same all over the world. i worked away myself. but when your staring down the barrell of a p45 and any work still out there seems to be filled by migrant workers its hard to be objective.

gandalf

whitser wrote: »

who said turf anyone out? but if the government is calling on workers to be patriotic and shop at home then they should call on greedy employers, especially builders to be patriotic and make sure any jobs that are going are filled by irish men who are here to stay not economic migrant workers. does that make me a nazi???

Firstly the government can ask all they like but from a poll yesterday it looks like 89% of people are ignoring that "patriotic" call of theirs.

As for builders being forced to hire only Irish workers that's a non runner as its illegal under EU law.

With regard to the nazi jibe tbh I would ignore it. Its lazy debating to call someone a nazi. I'd suggest you are misguided in your plea and that's all. I understand it but I don't agree with it.

--amadeus--

O'Morris wrote: »

There is some evidence that large numbers of immigrants are deciding to stay on the dole in this country. According to this article, of the 38,500 foreign nationals on the dole in July of this year, 15,000 are from the 10 accession countries that joined the EU in 2004, and 10,000 are from other overseas countries. Those figures are from July, I don't know what the current figures are.

From your linked article:

“These figures indicate the downturn in the construction industry has disproportionately affected migrant workers because they have experienced almost a 100% increase in their unemployment levels, or a three-fold increase in the case of those from the new EU states,” said Conor Lenihan, the integration minister.

“For the best past of 10 years now, immigrants have not featured at all on the live register.”

Lenihan said the live register figure underestimated the number of immigrants hit by the downturn. Many had already returned home, while others could not claim welfare in Ireland because they had not been working here for the minimum requirement of two years

Not sure how that knocks back my point?

And OP - businesses will do what they have to do to survive. If I have a choice between releasing a very good worker or a good worker I release teh good one and nationality is not a factor in teh decision. Any business making employment decisions based on nationality is not only acting illegally but going against common sense and best practice. they'll end up going bust and then everyone is out of a job, with all of teh economic knock ons that implies.

whitser

no one can force anyone to employ irish people. what im saying is should there be an attitude where by if there's a job available i'll give it to an irish man if i can.
my mate got laid off last week. there's still migrant workers in that job. how do you think he feels? this lad is a good trades man.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Mena

whitser wrote: »

no one can force anyone to employ irish people. what im saying is should there be an attitude where by if there's a job available i'll give it to an irish man if i can.
my mate got laid off last week. there's still migrant workers in that job. how do you think he feels? this lad is a good trades man.

Were they all doing the exact same job? Had they all been there an equal length of time?

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Not so much in the context of non-EU nationals however. It's directly stated that Irish, then EU nationals will be favoured for roles.

jmayo

Mena wrote: »

That's a gross generalisation. I've never sent a a cent back to my country of birth.

Another gross generalisation. Some of us are here earning in excess of a 6 figure salary.

Yes I know, since I work in an industry that has been employing highly skilled foreign workers for the last 10 years.
Long before the great retail or housing booms took off and brought the vast majority of foreign workers to the country.

oscarBravo

whitser wrote: »

no one can force anyone to employ irish people. what im saying is should there be an attitude where by if there's a job available i'll give it to an irish man if i can.

...and Irish retailers feel that there should be an attitude whereby if I can buy something south of the border, I shouldn't go north for it. Great in theory, but ignores the economics of the situation.

Economic downturn or not, I'm in the same place I was a year ago: I'll give a job to the person best able to do it, and I don't care where they're from.