Time to tighten yer belts!

Dinter · 03-12-2008 01:03PM

Relevant wrote: »

It will promote employment & job creation.
It will increase the tax take
It will decrease National Debt
It will boost consumer confidence

I don't agree that it'll do any of that. If we were talking about people who did all of their shopping in Newry then perhaps, but we're not.

Tbh I would be happy to pay extra PAYE however I'm most certainly not happy to pay extra VAT etc.

I know most people would probably consider it all the same thing but as far as I'm concerned increasing taxes is an admission of the Government's failure and one I think they owe the electorate. Until they do they can go fcuk themselves frankly as I don't see them changing their already failed policies and I have no confidence that any extra money I give them will be used more thoughtfully then the thousands of mine they've already blown.

They can live with the consequences of their failure by handing the opposition the next election on a plate or they can continue to hide behind cynical calls of patriotism and increased shadow taxes. Either way if you buy into it you're making a mistake.

Bailing this Government out is a waste of money.

PauloMN · 03-12-2008 01:03PM

SheroN wrote: »

and spending the majority of your disposable income in a different economy

Jaysus, I know I eat a lot at Xmas, but I do spend the majority of my disposable income here!!!

Thanks for the yardstick though, you eventually gave the answer to the question.

Those who spend > 50% of their disposable income elsewhere = ruining the economy
Those who spend < 50% of their disposable income elsewhere = grand lads just looking for the odd bargain

SheroN · 03-12-2008 01:05PM

PauloMN wrote: »

But then what about the Irish courier who delivered the camera to me? Poor fella would be jobless if I drove to HN and bought it there.

Swings and roundabouts.

Anyway, there's no way I'd fork out €150 extra just to buy a camera here from a shop. If you are happy to do so, that's your business. All I am saying is that the guilt trip some people are dishing out is ridiculous.

The courier could have been delivering other goods that the workers in Harvey Norman may have bought due to still having a job and disposable income as a result. Or maybe delivering something bigger to the Harvey Norman store itself while it's still open.

Again, not saying you should have bought anything in Harvey Norman. I find that chain of stores to be very pricey.

deleriumtremens · 03-12-2008 01:07PM

Anybody on the dole or on minimum wage would be crazy to pass up the oppurtunity to shop up the north this christmas.

Anbody earning 4 or 5 times what these people are getting really dont have a right to tell them to shop down the south. The price differences are just too great.

As far as government cuts are concerned, it makes me cringe when I see every group of society protesting about how their particular sector of work or age group is going to have to suffer a bit. Except for maybe the pensioners and the medical cards, that might have been the wrong area to attack.

Relevant · 03-12-2008 01:08PM

Dinter wrote: »

I don't agree that it'll do any of that. If we were talking about people who did all of their shopping in Newry then perhaps, but we're not.

Tbh I would be happy to pay extra PAYE however I'm most certainly not happy to pay extra VAT etc.

I know most people would probably consider it all the same thing but as far as I'm concerned increasing taxes is an admission of the Government's failure and one I think they owe the electorate. Until they do they can go fcuk themselves frankly as I don't see them changing their already failed policies and I have no confidence that any extra money I give them will be used more thoughtfully then the thousands of mine they've already blown.

They can live with the consequences of their failure by handing the opposition the next election on a plate or they can continue to hide behind cynical calls of patriotism and increased shadow taxes. Either way if you buy into it you're making a mistake.

Bailing this Government out is a waste of money.

It is not about people going North to buy 200 cans of Heineken and 12 tins of roses before Christmas. It is about people buying irish and supporting Irish industry on an ongoing basis.

SheroN · 03-12-2008 01:09PM

PauloMN wrote: »

Jaysus, I know I eat a lot at Xmas, but I do spend the majority of my disposable income here!!!

Thanks for the yardstick though, you eventually gave the answer to the question.

Those who spend > 50% of their disposable income elsewhere = ruining the economy
Those who spend < 50% of their disposable income elsewhere = grand lads just looking for the odd bargain

There are people doing nearly all their food shopping up north. I'm not saying you are, but there are people who are doing it.

quad_red · 03-12-2008 01:11PM

Judah Unimportant Wheel wrote: »

I will not spend double or tripple for the same food just to save our economy.

Sigh. I understand why you are angry. You have every right to be if you are being charged 50 per cent more for the same item for no reason. But I think the distinction between buying a few things online and organising large scale 2am shopping expeditions every two weeks in order to get creamy creams in Asda for half the price is slightly crazy.

We all depend on one another down here.

There is some insufferable smugness going around about now being the time of reckoning for shop keepers, those in business etc. Yeah, M&S is making a killing down here. But the average small to medium business isn't. Their prices have increased because the cost of paying staff, energy, insurance, rent have all ballooned to pay for the increases in the standard of living and wages that most of us have received.

So, we all sneer at those around us in the retail and service industry who are surely (according to popular opinion) 'creaming it'.

Sorry - most of them ain't. And allot of the price differential out there is due to higher wages down here (ie. YOUR WAGES), higher VAT (FOR YOUR PUBLIC SERVICES). Remember, the treasury in London subsidises the North to an enormous degree.

It is grating to see people I know with small to medium businesses, who have worked hard for decades and provided employment and benefit to their communities, not only run out of business but being sneered at by some jumped up 'consumers' who laugh at their misfortunes whilst failing to realise that them going out of business will bring us all down in the end.

I'm not singing the patriotic line. I realise the market reality. People only care about getting the cheapest things in the short term. But let's not try and trump it up as social justice or righteous retribution.

It's the race to the bottom. And the same people who will get up at 5am to drive to the north to get the best bargains at Walmart/Quicky Buy/whatever will see absolutely no connection or irony when their own town centres wilt and die as businesses close.

Because, sure, they were all 'creaming it'.

PauloMN · 03-12-2008 01:12PM

SheroN wrote: »

I find that chain of stores to be very pricey.

... which is why I bought online. HN was the cheapest I could find in Ireland for the camera.

I don't have a determination to spend my money elsewhere regardless. I do try to buy Irish/in Ireland when I feel the quality and price merits it. Even if the retailer here was maybe €40 or €50 dearer, I'd still have bought it from them. But €150? No brainer as far as I'm concerned.

gazzer · 03-12-2008 01:13PM

Our government in the space of 12 months have gone from having a 2 billion surplus to a 8 billion deficit. I dont think that happened because people are shopping up north. 10 billion of a difference in 12 months. That is an unbelieveable difference. What sort of muppets are working for the finance department and in the dail?

The government f*cked up our economy by extraordinarily bad financial choices when we had money but they got away with it cos Bertie was telling us that the boom was going to get boomer and everything was great and that it was a great time to buy houses and everybody should get their foot on the property ladder.

The government knew the housing boom could not last forever but did they plan properly for the day when our economy started shriking. Did they fc*k. They just threw money away on everything and anything. Look at PPARS and Electronic Voting for some examples.

Our taxes and the numerous stealth taxes should be more than enough to pay for the running of this country. If the government invested the tax take properly we would not be in such a bad state. Obviously the world wide credit crunch would have effected us anyway but imo the government were lucky that that happened cos they can blame all their mental decisions on that.

Dont see Brian Lenihan saying anything about the northern reg cars coming down south to fill their cars. I do not feel one bit quilty about going to where the bargains are. My responsibilty is do do the best for my family. It is the governments responsibility to look after the economy and they have f*cked up royally.

Why doesnt the government take back the 2 billion they are using for sub prime lending (in the form of Home Choice Loans) to bail out their builder buddies and put that money back into kick starting our economy?

Vegeta · 03-12-2008 01:14PM

What % of products in ROI Supermarkets (for example) are actually Irish?

What % of products in NI Supermarkets actually come from the ROI?

Anyone know?

SheroN · 03-12-2008 01:18PM

Vegeta wrote: »

What % of products in ROI Supermarkets (for example) are actually Irish?

What % of products in NI Supermarkets actually come from the ROI?

Anyone know?

They employ Irish people, the VAT on goods bought in the supermarkets goes to the Irish government.

Terry · 03-12-2008 01:19PM

SheroN wrote: »

They employ Irish people, the VAT on goods bought in the supermarkets goes to the Irish government.

Been in an Irish supermarket lately?

Dinter · 03-12-2008 01:20PM

Relevant wrote: »

It is not about people going North to buy 200 cans of Heineken and 12 tins of roses before Christmas. It is about people buying irish and supporting Irish industry on an ongoing basis.

People have supported this economy on an ongoing basis to such an extent that they're now tired of it as they see various ministers turning out empty pockets and saying sorry we've blown all the money you kindly gave us and nothing has improved very much.

quad_red · 03-12-2008 01:21PM

gazzer wrote: »

The government knew the housing boom could not last forever but did they plan properly for the day when our economy started shriking. Did they fc*k. They just threw money away on everything and anything. Look at PPARS and Electronic Voting for some examples.

I agree wholeheartedly. But I think this is a different issue.

gazzer wrote: »

I do not feel one bit quilty about going to where the bargains are. My responsibilty is do do the best for my family. It is the governments responsibility to look after the economy and they have f*cked up royally.

So, what you are saying, is that you have absolutely zero responsibility when it comes to how you spend your money. No matter how this affects the economy or society, it is the government's responsibility absolutely and totally.

And because our government are a bunch of incompetent buffoons, and have screwed up even more, you are even more determined not to spend your hard earned money down here.

Do you think that maybe the 'doing those cheating bastards in government' excuse will just about cover any behaviour now?

As in - look at me! I'm giving Brian Lenihan exactly what he deserves now by not paying any tax on what I'm buying.

In theory - if taken to it's logical conclusion - that logic would sink us all.

SheroN · 03-12-2008 01:21PM

Terry wrote: »

Been in an Irish supermarket lately?

Well they employ people who will most likely go on and spend their money else where in the economy. :-)

Relevant · 03-12-2008 01:24PM

quad_red wrote: »

I agree wholeheartedly. But I think this is a different issue.

So, what you are saying, is that you have absolutely zero responsibility when it comes to how you spend your money. No matter how this affects the economy or society, it is the government's responsibility absolutely and totally.

And because our government are a bunch of incompetent buffoons, and have screwed up even more, you are even more determined not to spend your hard earned money down here.

Do you think that maybe the 'doing those cheating bastards in government' excuse will just about cover any behaviour now?

As in - look at me! I'm giving Brian Lenihan exactly what he deserves now by not paying any tax on what I'm buying.

In theory - if taken to it's logical conclusion - that logic would sink us all.

I believe the phrase is cutting your nose to spite your face

Vegeta · 03-12-2008 01:25PM

SheroN wrote: »

They employ Irish people, the VAT on goods bought in the supermarkets goes to the Irish government.

No ****, really.

I ask because the government will not miss the VAT, its a drop in the ocean, nor have I heard of vast lay offs at Tesco

What does hurt is Irish companies who manufacture or supply the products. it would be interesting to see how much these industries sell in the ROI and NI

SheroN · 03-12-2008 01:27PM

Vegeta wrote: »

No ****, really.

I ask because the government will not miss the VAT, its a drop in the ocean, nor have I heard of vast lay offs at Tesco

What does hurt is Irish companies who manufacture or supply the products. it would be interesting to see how much these industries sell in the ROI and NI

PauloNM didn't seem to grasp this fact so I was making it clear.

Relevant · 03-12-2008 01:29PM

Vegeta wrote: »

No ****, really.

I ask because the government will not miss the VAT, its a drop in the ocean, nor have I heard of vast lay offs at Tesco

How is it a drop in the ocean? Maybe the VAT of one person is a drop i the ocean but if loads of people are continuously crossing the border to do shopping this all adds up

Dinter · 03-12-2008 01:33PM

Relevant wrote: »

I believe the phrase is cutting your nose to spite your face

I believe the phrase is watching your pennies.

The VAT I pay on goods down South goes directly to the State and any shortfall could be easily made up by increasing PAYE.

Not shopping down South might be eating into shops mark up but it is not affecting small businesses such as convenience stores whose reason for existing is to fulfil shoppers needs for convenience. Not even the most determined penny pincher is going to go North for a pint of milk.

keefg · 03-12-2008 01:37PM

SheroN wrote: »

Well they employ people who will most likely go on and spend their money else where in the economy. :-)

Or send most of their earnings out of the state "back home" to set themselves up nicely when the good times have come to an end in Ireland.

Which is understandable, it just hit us so bad because in comparison to a lot of EU countries we have a small economy.

Vegeta · 03-12-2008 01:38PM

Relevant wrote: »

How is it a drop in the ocean? Maybe the VAT of one person is a drop i the ocean but if loads of people are continuously crossing the border to do shopping this all adds up

ok so vat on everything is 21.5% (some items are lower rate but for sake of calculations)

so lets say the average shop per family there is 400 euro a week
52 weeks = ~21,000 a year
21.5% = ~ 4500 euro a year in tax per family

by say what 10,000 families = 45 million as a % of 10 billion = 0.5%

So 10,000 families would have to spend 400 euro every week (not just around xmas) to account for half a percent.

Drop in the ocean

funk-you · 03-12-2008 01:40PM

I'd normally buy Irish as much as possible but we got so greedy it's unreal. I worked in a shop in Dublin in 2001 when a mars bar was 36p. I moved to London in 2005 where a mars bar was still 36p, I left in 2008 and it was still 36p. I moved back to Ireland in 2008 where a mars bar is E1.05! Now thats a difference.

Everyone has been loving their pay rises and squeezing that extra little bit out of the consumer and it's gone as far as people can stretch. The way things are definitely needs a shock to bring people back to reality for a bit but unfortunately now that we are finally doing the right thing and shopping around the VAT is going elsewhere. I'm hoping the Republic can get a bit more competitive and level the playing field a bit before we completely go down the pan.

Last time i left Ireland was because I wanted to and could do the job better than anyone else over there. I'm hoping if i leave again it will be on similar terms but i doubt it.

-Funk

gazzer · 03-12-2008 01:40PM

quad_red wrote: »

I agree wholeheartedly. But I think this is a different issue.

So, what you are saying, is that you have absolutely zero responsibility when it comes to how you spend your money. No matter how this affects the economy or society, it is the government's responsibility absolutely and totally.

And because our government are a bunch of incompetent buffoons, and have screwed up even more, you are even more determined not to spend your hard earned money down here.

Do you think that maybe the 'doing those cheating bastards in government' excuse will just about cover any behaviour now?

As in - look at me! I'm giving Brian Lenihan exactly what he deserves now by not paying any tax on what I'm buying.

In theory - if taken to it's logical conclusion - that logic would sink us all.

I still pay taxes and PRSI in this country. I have done this for the last 17 years. I still fill my car with fuel in this country. I still support the local shop by buying bread, milk etc there I still buy pints in the pub and club but on my big purchases (electrical, certain foods, razors, cars, DVD's , CD's, Clothes etc) I am going to go where the best value is be it the internet or up north or over to the states.

PauloMN · 03-12-2008 01:41PM

SheroN wrote: »

PauloNM didn't seem to grasp this fact so I was making it clear.

I understand it perfectly.

What you don't seem to understand is that driving people up North to shop is a symptom of over-pricing. The minimum wage here is hugely responsible for the price hikes here, and the unions are responsible for pushing that up to excessively. The big retailers here have also been making huge profits over the past few years. I guarantee the likes of Lidl and Aldi will only do better out of this - why? Because they charge realistic prices.

You cannot blame a bit of Xmas shopping up North for causing economic problems. The government sat by and watched while all this was happening during the Celtic Tiger. Every economist saw this coming years ago, and yet we see ridiculous pay agreements being pushed through, and the most disorganised and ineffecient public service and health service wasting millions of euro. Blame the government for letting this happen, not Xmas shoppers in Newry.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 03-12-2008 01:42PM

keefg wrote: »

Or send most of their earnings out of the state "back home" to set themselves up nicely when the good times have come to an end in Ireland.

Well we done it throughout history did we not? It works both ways mate.

keefg · 03-12-2008 01:44PM

Judah Unimportant Wheel wrote: »

Well we done it throughout history did we not? It works both ways mate.

I totally agree and my comment was not meant as any sort of racist remark, just a comment on the previous post about most of the non-national workers spending most of their earnings in Ireland, which isn't the case.

Dinter · 03-12-2008 01:45PM

Judah Unimportant Wheel wrote: »

Well we done it throughout history did we not? It works both ways mate.

It's still a very valid point.

SheroN · 03-12-2008 01:46PM

PauloMN wrote: »

I understand it perfectly.

What you don't seem to understand is that driving people up North to shop is a symptom of over-pricing. The minimum wage here is hugely responsible for the price hikes here, and the unions are responsible for pushing that up to excessively. The big retailers here have also been making huge profits over the past few years. I guarantee the likes of Lidl and Aldi will only do better out of this - why? Because they charge realistic prices.

You cannot blame a bit of Xmas shopping up North for causing economic problems. The government sat by and watched while all this was happening during the Celtic Tiger. Every economist saw this coming years ago, and yet we see ridiculous pay agreements being pushed through, and the most disorganised and ineffecient public service and health service wasting millions of euro. Blame the government for letting this happen, not Xmas shoppers in Newry.

Why were you harping on about giving your money to an Australian business then?

Dinter · 03-12-2008 01:47PM

SheroN wrote: »

Why were you harping on about giving your money to an Australian business then?

Anyone know how oul Harvey's corporation taxes work then? :pac:

Time to tighten yer belts!

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