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Points for undertaking

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  • 18-10-2008 9:55pm
    #1
    antodeco
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 13,459 ✭✭✭✭


    Hey all,
    Got pulled over today on the m50 for undertaking someone. Car wouldnt move from the overtaking lane (both lanes clear ahead). I moved into the middle lane and continued driving in that lane. I then noticed a red mondeo behind me driving around 2 foot behind me. Continued this from the dundrum exit to the sandyford exit. Then, when I exited off, blue flashing lights. Was a garda on his own. Told me to expect a letter next week. I was just wondering what the points are for 'undertaking', even tho I remained in the correct lane. I was also going over the speed limit, which the garda mentioned to me. Im not looking for the PC crowd, as I admit I was in the wrong for the speeding part. Undertaking, yes, but I did remain in the driving lane. How many points should I be expecting?

    Thanks


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    #2
    joeperry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 527 ✭✭✭joeperry


    Hi, i guess its probably 2 points, thats abit rough,he should of pulled the other car for bad lane dioscipline,only in Ireland eh!! You need to use your mirrors better mate,maybe you could appeal this. ive read somewhere that undertaking is not illegal in some cases,could've been a english forum i was reading though.


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    #3
    antodeco
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 13,459 ✭✭✭✭antodeco


    There were no cars in the driving lane. I saw the mondeo flying down the overtaking lane then move in behind me. Ive a feeling Il get 4 points. 2 for speeding and 2 for undertaking (assuming its 2). He was on his own, so i reckon he was just on his way home!


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    #4
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,185 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    There isn't penalty points for undertaking. However there are:
    Dangerous overtaking - 2 points (5 in court)
    Driving without reasonable consideration (2 /4 points)

    http://www.penaltypoints.ie/the_full_list_of_offences.php


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    #5
    antodeco
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 13,459 ✭✭✭✭antodeco


    Hmm, odd. He told me to expect a letter for 'undertaking'. I just hope its not a summons!


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    #6
    .Longshanks.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭.Longshanks.


    Forget about the PC brigade for a minute.....
    I hate when some clown will sit in the outside lane of the motorway doing 110kmph. I regularly spot people who are cruising in the inside lane that indicate into the outside lane when nothing is in front of them for as far as the eye can see! If i come up behind them in the outside lane i put on my indicator (object to flashing people). If they don't pull over after a reasonable time, i undertake them and beep the horn. Know its wrong but....
    Have even seen cars that pull over, pull back out again when i pass when the road is totally clear!
    Some people seen to think its the fast lane :rolleyes:


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    #7
    joeperry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 527 ✭✭✭joeperry


    Have you got any points already? I'd say the worst cast scenario is 4 points. What category of driver do you fall into,Are you a boy racer?:P


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    #8
    bladebrew
    Registered Users Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭bladebrew


    but even if you were speeding which could be 2 penalty points,how could he prove it? and isnt undertaking actually goin up the inside then back out in front of the car which was in the overtaking lane,sounds like you just changed lanes and sped up?:confused:


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    #9
    antodeco
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 13,459 ✭✭✭✭antodeco


    I stayed in the driving lane after I passed him. He even went past me later on, so technically I didnt undertake. It was on the 60 stretch of the motorway. I was going over the speed limit. I admit that. I had waited behind the driver to see would he move, and he didnt. Thats when I moved and stayed in the overtaking lane. I sped up more when I saw the mondeo tailgating me, so I could pass the other driver and allow him overtake me. Which he didnt, and kept against my bumper (could not see his lights in the mirror), could just see the sole occupant.
    And yes, I have 4 points, 2 of which expire in the new year.


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    #10
    Jonnykitedude
    Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭Jonnykitedude


    2 Points

    I have 2 for the same kinda thing but i was using a buslane at 9.30pm as a filter lane, just caught the cop on a bad day.He told me it would only be one but i got two in the post and on the letter it said "overtaking on the left" when it did come.


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    #11
    antodeco
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 13,459 ✭✭✭✭antodeco


    Jonnykitedude wrote: »
    2 Points

    I have 2 for the same kinda thing but i was using a buslane at 9.30pm as a filter lane, just caught the cop on a bad day.He told me it would only be one but i got two in the post and on the letter it said "overtaking on the left" when it did come.

    Cheers for that. I just hope he doesnt class it as 'dangerous driving' seeing as I was speeding. Harsh with the bus lane tho. Does this mean that if I sat in a single lane with a bus lane, going 2mph, it would be illegal for anyone to drive down an out of hours bus lane? Crazy


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    #12
    Berty
    Registered Users Posts: 26,149 ✭✭✭✭Berty


    Are you hoping for people to help you justify undertaking. You may ONLY pass on the left when doing the speed limit or under the speed limit.

    I.e traffic moving in all lanes. If speed limit on a 2 lane is 100 and the guy in the overtaking is doing 80 you may pass him at 81-100 kph on his inside. It is not undertaking..........

    .......Irregardless of the personal opinion of a Garda. The Law is the Law


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    #13
    Slidey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,811 ✭✭✭✭Slidey


    It states in the rules of the road that there is several times when it is ok to undertake or pass on the left.

    One of them is when the traffic in the right hand lane is moving slower than the left hand lane.

    Tbh I really doubt you will hear anymore about it.

    I have on 2 different occasions seen a Garda car pass a car that was sitting in the right lane and thought to myself why didnt he pull the person and inform them it was for overtaking only.


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    #14
    Jonnykitedude
    Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭Jonnykitedude


    Eh so your saying the cops just dish out points just for fun??? as i said it stated "overtaking on the left" and i was going under the speed limit on a 3 lane road at about 5mph faster than the cars on my right.


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    #15
    .Longshanks.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭.Longshanks.


    quirke_folder wrote: »
    Are you hoping for people to help you justify undertaking. You may ONLY pass on the left when doing the speed limit or under the speed limit.

    I.e traffic moving in all lanes. If speed limit on a 2 lane is 100 and the guy in the overtaking is doing 80 you may pass him at 81-100 kph on his inside. It is not undertaking..........

    .......Irregardless of the personal opinion of a Garda. The Law is the Law

    What about the scenario i described above, where i deliberately passed him on the inside?


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    #16
    antodeco
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 13,459 ✭✭✭✭antodeco


    The driving lane was free. I drove down it, and remained in it. Does a garda on his own require proof of speed? Im more annoyed at his dangerous driving behind me. He told me to expect a letter in the post. I have a feeling I will get one for 'undertaking' and one for 'speeding'. Grr on me!


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    #17
    Berty
    Registered Users Posts: 26,149 ✭✭✭✭Berty


    Longshanks100 wrote: »
    What about the scenario i described above, where i deliberately passed him on the inside?

    I agree with you, some people will never learn and cant be told enough thats its an overtaking lane only.

    I personally cannot understand why people on an empty dual carraigeway or motorway feel they must remain in the overtaking lane and I have known people to move out of the way and move back into the overtaking lane when I pass. How odd.

    I know you asked for less of the PC crowd but being wrong is being wrong. You were just unlucky enough to be caught.


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    #18
    bladebrew
    Registered Users Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭bladebrew


    but even if was two points for speeding,i dont see how its undertaking as slideways said if traffic is moving slower in the outside lane you can still drive up the inside,as long as you didnt drive up the inside then back in front of the car in the overtaking lane,
    and if he said its next week its definetly not a summoms they take months to arrive!


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    #19
    milltown
    Registered Users Posts: 4,613 ✭✭✭milltown


    quirke_folder wrote: »
    Are you hoping for people to help you justify undertaking. You may ONLY pass on the left when doing the speed limit or under the speed limit.

    I.e traffic moving in all lanes. If speed limit on a 2 lane is 100 and the guy in the overtaking is doing 80 you may pass him at 81-100 kph on his inside. It is not undertaking..........

    .......Irregardless of the personal opinion of a Garda. The Law is the Law

    :rolleyes:
    Only surprised it took so long TBH. Were you lot out at the high horse races or something?

    He has admitted to speeding and possibly, technically undertaking. He has not asked for our sympathy, he just asked what sort of punishment to expect.

    The scenario the OP describes happens me (sans Garda thank god) on a weekly basis. The rules of the road, as I remember them, do not say it's ok to pass somebody on the inside so long as you are under the speed limit. In fact I think it says only in slow moving traffic. Once I pass the N7 exit on the M50 I will join the exit lane for the N4 and set the cruise control for 100kph. I will rarely encounter anyone else in this lane but I will pass many, many cars TWO lanes right of me. If I need to pass a dawdler in the exit lane, this proves to be a piece of pi$$ because the left driving lane will always be 99% empty too, all the traffic concentrated in the rightmost two lanes. If or when I get pulled for this attempted murder I will accept my two points with good grace if the Garda can offer a reasonable explanation of why my behaviour is more dangerous than the Fiesta doing 90kph in the outside lane. No doubt I'll get some pig ignorant bog warrior who'll instead threaten me with half a dozen other offences for being cheeky though.


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    #20
    .Longshanks.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭.Longshanks.


    Perfect example is drive on the new section of the N7 from Naas to Dublin (or visa versa) on the far inside lane with you cruise control set to 90kmph and count the amount of cars you undertake.....


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    #21
    TheNog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    antodeco wrote: »
    Hey all,
    Got pulled over today on the m50 for undertaking someone. Car wouldnt move from the overtaking lane (both lanes clear ahead). I moved into the middle lane and continued driving in that lane. I then noticed a red mondeo behind me driving around 2 foot behind me. Continued this from the dundrum exit to the sandyford exit. Then, when I exited off, blue flashing lights. Was a garda on his own. Told me to expect a letter next week. I was just wondering what the points are for 'undertaking', even tho I remained in the correct lane. I was also going over the speed limit, which the garda mentioned to me. Im not looking for the PC crowd, as I admit I was in the wrong for the speeding part. Undertaking, yes, but I did remain in the driving lane. How many points should I be expecting?

    Thanks
    quirke_folder wrote: »
    Are you hoping for people to help you justify undertaking. You may ONLY pass on the left when doing the speed limit or under the speed limit.

    I.e traffic moving in all lanes. If speed limit on a 2 lane is 100 and the guy in the overtaking is doing 80 you may pass him at 81-100 kph on his inside. It is not undertaking..........

    .......Irregardless of the persohttp://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=57621773
    boards.ie - Reply to Topicnal opinion of a Garda. The Law is the Law

    Here's my 2cent.

    Presuming the OP was not driving at excessive speed I would think the other driver was mostly at fault with the OP taking some of the responsibility too. What should have happened in this case is both drivers pulled over and given a good bollocking over it. I would have seriously thought about prosecuting the driver in the overtaking lane for driving without due care and attention if his speed was well below the max limit on that particular road.

    OP, if there was not much traffic about at the time and there was nothing too dangerous about our manoeuvre I would be surprised if you heard more about it.


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    #22
    deadwood
    Registered Users Posts: 1,938 ✭✭✭deadwood


    slideways wrote: »
    It states in the rules of the road that there is several times when it is ok to undertake or pass on the left.

    One of them is when the traffic in the right hand lane is moving slower than the left hand lane.

    Tbh I really doubt you will hear anymore about it.

    I don't think o.p. will hear more about this. If you do, though, it won't be for speeding.

    +1 Nog

    As per above, the rules refer to slow (not slower) moving traffic (e.g. moving up the left turning lane while the right-turning lane is queuing)

    If you feel the garda behind you was driving dangerously, report it. He's subject to the same raod traffic act that you are.


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    #23
    antodeco
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 13,459 ✭✭✭✭antodeco


    My concern does lie with the fact that I was speeding. I was going the 120kph, along the 60kph stretch.


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    #24
    Sandwich
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭Sandwich


    antodeco wrote: »
    My concern does lie with the fact that I was speeding. I was going the 120kph, along the 60kph stretch.

    Which is pretty quick and probably what ticked him off.Safer for him to give u 2 points for undertaking than have u get off a speeding penalty on a technicality. Just the 2 pts Id guess.


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    #25
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,185 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    quirke_folder wrote: »
    Are you hoping for people to help you justify undertaking. You may ONLY pass on the left when doing the speed limit or under the speed limit.

    I.e traffic moving in all lanes. If speed limit on a 2 lane is 100 and the guy in the overtaking is doing 80 you may pass him at 81-100 kph on his inside. It is not undertaking..........

    .......Irregardless of the personal opinion of a Garda. The Law is the Law
    If you are going to sit on a high horse then please ensure that you are familiar with the law. You are not allowed exceed the speed limit (as you are suggesting) and as has been already said, there are clear conditions under which you can pass on the left. Your reason is not one of them!
    Anyhow, I would suggest that you drive on the newly opened sections of the M50 without passing someone on the left illegally!
    quirke_folder wrote: »
    I agree with you, some people will never learn and cant be told enough thats its an overtaking lane only.

    I personally cannot understand why people on an empty dual carraigeway or motorway feel they must remain in the overtaking lane and I have known people to move out of the way and move back into the overtaking lane when I pass. How odd.

    I know you asked for less of the PC crowd but being wrong is being wrong. You were just unlucky enough to be caught.
    People sit in the overtaking lane because they are either pure ignorant or else believe that its a fast lane and because they are doing over 50km/h think that they are going fast and therefore must/should use the fast lane.
    There was a thread in AH recently started by someone who was giving out about people flashing her on dual carriageways. It turned out that she was unaware of the keep left rule!


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    #26
    jhegarty
    Registered Users Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    quirke_folder wrote: »
    Are you hoping for people to help you justify undertaking. You may ONLY pass on the left when doing the speed limit or under the speed limit.

    I.e traffic moving in all lanes. If speed limit on a 2 lane is 100 and the guy in the overtaking is doing 80 you may pass him at 81-100 kph on his inside. It is not undertaking..........

    .......Irregardless of the personal opinion of a Garda. The Law is the Law


    He didn't ask anyone to justify anything , he asked how many points he would get...

    or is the text hard to read from that height....


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    #27
    antodeco
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 13,459 ✭✭✭✭antodeco


    Thanks for all the replies. What you are saying is that regardless of the speed, I wasnt as such 'undertaking' as I maintained my journey in the driving lane? If I do get a letter for 'overtaking on the left' Id be afraid to challenge it, as I was going twice the signposted speed limit.


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    #28
    Anan1
    Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    antodeco wrote: »
    Thanks for all the replies. What you are saying is that regardless of the speed, I wasnt as such 'undertaking' as I maintained my journey in the driving lane? If I do get a letter for 'overtaking on the left' Id be afraid to challenge it, as I was going twice the signposted speed limit.
    If you passed the other car on the left at 120km/h then yes, you were 'undertaking'. Like many people, I find it necessary to undertake quite regularly on Irish rules. There are, however, three golden rules:

    1. Make a concerted effort to make the car in front aware that you wish to pass

    2. If they refuse to move, use the horn while passing on the left. Make absolutely sure they know you're there.

    3. Before embarking on any of the above, make sure that you have enough room and that there are no Garda cars, marked or unmarked, within sight.

    In my book, your crime was neither speeding nor undertaking but poor observation. All that said, I have a feeling you'll hear no more about it.


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    #29
    Sandwich
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭Sandwich


    ?????
    OP concedes he was doing 120 in a 60. How can u say he wasnt speeding?


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    #30
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    slideways wrote: »
    It states in the rules of the road that there is several times when it is ok to undertake or pass on the left.....One of them is when the traffic in the right hand lane is moving slower than the left hand lane.
    You missed reading the most important bit, which is mentions 'slow moving queues'. When this would be the case is a matter of opinion (and occasional debate here in 'Motors'). It seems that the opinion of the Garda on this occasion was that there was no 'slow moving queue'.


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    #31
    Anan1
    Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    Sandwich wrote: »
    ?????
    OP concedes he was doing 120 in a 60. How can u say he wasnt speeding?
    Read it again, I didn't.


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