Points for undertaking

antodeco

Hey all,
Got pulled over today on the m50 for undertaking someone. Car wouldnt move from the overtaking lane (both lanes clear ahead). I moved into the middle lane and continued driving in that lane. I then noticed a red mondeo behind me driving around 2 foot behind me. Continued this from the dundrum exit to the sandyford exit. Then, when I exited off, blue flashing lights. Was a garda on his own. Told me to expect a letter next week. I was just wondering what the points are for 'undertaking', even tho I remained in the correct lane. I was also going over the speed limit, which the garda mentioned to me. Im not looking for the PC crowd, as I admit I was in the wrong for the speeding part. Undertaking, yes, but I did remain in the driving lane. How many points should I be expecting?

Thanks

joeperry

Hi, i guess its probably 2 points, thats abit rough,he should of pulled the other car for bad lane dioscipline,only in Ireland eh!! You need to use your mirrors better mate,maybe you could appeal this. ive read somewhere that undertaking is not illegal in some cases,could've been a english forum i was reading though.

antodeco

There were no cars in the driving lane. I saw the mondeo flying down the overtaking lane then move in behind me. Ive a feeling Il get 4 points. 2 for speeding and 2 for undertaking (assuming its 2). He was on his own, so i reckon he was just on his way home!

Seth Brundle

There isn't penalty points for undertaking. However there are:
Dangerous overtaking - 2 points (5 in court)
Driving without reasonable consideration (2 /4 points)

http://www.penaltypoints.ie/the_full_list_of_offences.php

antodeco

Hmm, odd. He told me to expect a letter for 'undertaking'. I just hope its not a summons!

.Longshanks.

Forget about the PC brigade for a minute.....
I hate when some clown will sit in the outside lane of the motorway doing 110kmph. I regularly spot people who are cruising in the inside lane that indicate into the outside lane when nothing is in front of them for as far as the eye can see! If i come up behind them in the outside lane i put on my indicator (object to flashing people). If they don't pull over after a reasonable time, i undertake them and beep the horn. Know its wrong but....
Have even seen cars that pull over, pull back out again when i pass when the road is totally clear!
Some people seen to think its the fast lane :rolleyes:

joeperry

Have you got any points already? I'd say the worst cast scenario is 4 points. What category of driver do you fall into,Are you a boy racer?:P

bladebrew

but even if you were speeding which could be 2 penalty points,how could he prove it? and isnt undertaking actually goin up the inside then back out in front of the car which was in the overtaking lane,sounds like you just changed lanes and sped up?

antodeco

I stayed in the driving lane after I passed him. He even went past me later on, so technically I didnt undertake. It was on the 60 stretch of the motorway. I was going over the speed limit. I admit that. I had waited behind the driver to see would he move, and he didnt. Thats when I moved and stayed in the overtaking lane. I sped up more when I saw the mondeo tailgating me, so I could pass the other driver and allow him overtake me. Which he didnt, and kept against my bumper (could not see his lights in the mirror), could just see the sole occupant.
And yes, I have 4 points, 2 of which expire in the new year.

Jonnykitedude

2 Points

I have 2 for the same kinda thing but i was using a buslane at 9.30pm as a filter lane, just caught the cop on a bad day.He told me it would only be one but i got two in the post and on the letter it said "overtaking on the left" when it did come.

antodeco

Jonnykitedude wrote: »

2 Points

I have 2 for the same kinda thing but i was using a buslane at 9.30pm as a filter lane, just caught the cop on a bad day.He told me it would only be one but i got two in the post and on the letter it said "overtaking on the left" when it did come.

Cheers for that. I just hope he doesnt class it as 'dangerous driving' seeing as I was speeding. Harsh with the bus lane tho. Does this mean that if I sat in a single lane with a bus lane, going 2mph, it would be illegal for anyone to drive down an out of hours bus lane? Crazy

Berty

Are you hoping for people to help you justify undertaking. You may ONLY pass on the left when doing the speed limit or under the speed limit.

I.e traffic moving in all lanes. If speed limit on a 2 lane is 100 and the guy in the overtaking is doing 80 you may pass him at 81-100 kph on his inside. It is not undertaking..........

.......Irregardless of the personal opinion of a Garda. The Law is the Law

Slidey

It states in the rules of the road that there is several times when it is ok to undertake or pass on the left.

One of them is when the traffic in the right hand lane is moving slower than the left hand lane.

Tbh I really doubt you will hear anymore about it.

I have on 2 different occasions seen a Garda car pass a car that was sitting in the right lane and thought to myself why didnt he pull the person and inform them it was for overtaking only.

Jonnykitedude

Eh so your saying the cops just dish out points just for fun??? as i said it stated "overtaking on the left" and i was going under the speed limit on a 3 lane road at about 5mph faster than the cars on my right.

.Longshanks.

quirke_folder wrote: »

Are you hoping for people to help you justify undertaking. You may ONLY pass on the left when doing the speed limit or under the speed limit.

I.e traffic moving in all lanes. If speed limit on a 2 lane is 100 and the guy in the overtaking is doing 80 you may pass him at 81-100 kph on his inside. It is not undertaking..........

.......Irregardless of the personal opinion of a Garda. The Law is the Law

What about the scenario i described above, where i deliberately passed him on the inside?

antodeco

The driving lane was free. I drove down it, and remained in it. Does a garda on his own require proof of speed? Im more annoyed at his dangerous driving behind me. He told me to expect a letter in the post. I have a feeling I will get one for 'undertaking' and one for 'speeding'. Grr on me!

Berty

Longshanks100 wrote: »

What about the scenario i described above, where i deliberately passed him on the inside?

I agree with you, some people will never learn and cant be told enough thats its an overtaking lane only.

I personally cannot understand why people on an empty dual carraigeway or motorway feel they must remain in the overtaking lane and I have known people to move out of the way and move back into the overtaking lane when I pass. How odd.

I know you asked for less of the PC crowd but being wrong is being wrong. You were just unlucky enough to be caught.

bladebrew

but even if was two points for speeding,i dont see how its undertaking as slideways said if traffic is moving slower in the outside lane you can still drive up the inside,as long as you didnt drive up the inside then back in front of the car in the overtaking lane,
and if he said its next week its definetly not a summoms they take months to arrive!

milltown

quirke_folder wrote: »

Are you hoping for people to help you justify undertaking. You may ONLY pass on the left when doing the speed limit or under the speed limit.

I.e traffic moving in all lanes. If speed limit on a 2 lane is 100 and the guy in the overtaking is doing 80 you may pass him at 81-100 kph on his inside. It is not undertaking..........

.......Irregardless of the personal opinion of a Garda. The Law is the Law

:rolleyes:
Only surprised it took so long TBH. Were you lot out at the high horse races or something?

He has admitted to speeding and possibly, technically undertaking. He has not asked for our sympathy, he just asked what sort of punishment to expect.

The scenario the OP describes happens me (sans Garda thank god) on a weekly basis. The rules of the road, as I remember them, do not say it's ok to pass somebody on the inside so long as you are under the speed limit. In fact I think it says only in slow moving traffic. Once I pass the N7 exit on the M50 I will join the exit lane for the N4 and set the cruise control for 100kph. I will rarely encounter anyone else in this lane but I will pass many, many cars TWO lanes right of me. If I need to pass a dawdler in the exit lane, this proves to be a piece of pi$$ because the left driving lane will always be 99% empty too, all the traffic concentrated in the rightmost two lanes. If or when I get pulled for this attempted murder I will accept my two points with good grace if the Garda can offer a reasonable explanation of why my behaviour is more dangerous than the Fiesta doing 90kph in the outside lane. No doubt I'll get some pig ignorant bog warrior who'll instead threaten me with half a dozen other offences for being cheeky though.

.Longshanks.

Perfect example is drive on the new section of the N7 from Naas to Dublin (or visa versa) on the far inside lane with you cruise control set to 90kmph and count the amount of cars you undertake.....

TheNog

antodeco wrote: »

Hey all,
Got pulled over today on the m50 for undertaking someone. Car wouldnt move from the overtaking lane (both lanes clear ahead). I moved into the middle lane and continued driving in that lane. I then noticed a red mondeo behind me driving around 2 foot behind me. Continued this from the dundrum exit to the sandyford exit. Then, when I exited off, blue flashing lights. Was a garda on his own. Told me to expect a letter next week. I was just wondering what the points are for 'undertaking', even tho I remained in the correct lane. I was also going over the speed limit, which the garda mentioned to me. Im not looking for the PC crowd, as I admit I was in the wrong for the speeding part. Undertaking, yes, but I did remain in the driving lane. How many points should I be expecting?

Thanks

quirke_folder wrote: »

Are you hoping for people to help you justify undertaking. You may ONLY pass on the left when doing the speed limit or under the speed limit.

I.e traffic moving in all lanes. If speed limit on a 2 lane is 100 and the guy in the overtaking is doing 80 you may pass him at 81-100 kph on his inside. It is not undertaking..........

.......Irregardless of the persohttp://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=57621773
boards.ie - Reply to Topicnal opinion of a Garda. The Law is the Law

Here's my 2cent.

Presuming the OP was not driving at excessive speed I would think the other driver was mostly at fault with the OP taking some of the responsibility too. What should have happened in this case is both drivers pulled over and given a good bollocking over it. I would have seriously thought about prosecuting the driver in the overtaking lane for driving without due care and attention if his speed was well below the max limit on that particular road.

OP, if there was not much traffic about at the time and there was nothing too dangerous about our manoeuvre I would be surprised if you heard more about it.

deadwood

slideways wrote: »

It states in the rules of the road that there is several times when it is ok to undertake or pass on the left.

One of them is when the traffic in the right hand lane is moving slower than the left hand lane.

Tbh I really doubt you will hear anymore about it.

I don't think o.p. will hear more about this. If you do, though, it won't be for speeding.

+1 Nog

As per above, the rules refer to slow (not slower) moving traffic (e.g. moving up the left turning lane while the right-turning lane is queuing)

If you feel the garda behind you was driving dangerously, report it. He's subject to the same raod traffic act that you are.

antodeco

My concern does lie with the fact that I was speeding. I was going the 120kph, along the 60kph stretch.

Sandwich

antodeco wrote: »

My concern does lie with the fact that I was speeding. I was going the 120kph, along the 60kph stretch.

Which is pretty quick and probably what ticked him off.Safer for him to give u 2 points for undertaking than have u get off a speeding penalty on a technicality. Just the 2 pts Id guess.

Seth Brundle

quirke_folder wrote: »

Are you hoping for people to help you justify undertaking. You may ONLY pass on the left when doing the speed limit or under the speed limit.

I.e traffic moving in all lanes. If speed limit on a 2 lane is 100 and the guy in the overtaking is doing 80 you may pass him at 81-100 kph on his inside. It is not undertaking..........

.......Irregardless of the personal opinion of a Garda. The Law is the Law

If you are going to sit on a high horse then please ensure that you are familiar with the law. You are not allowed exceed the speed limit (as you are suggesting) and as has been already said, there are clear conditions under which you can pass on the left. Your reason is not one of them!
Anyhow, I would suggest that you drive on the newly opened sections of the M50 without passing someone on the left illegally!

quirke_folder wrote: »

I agree with you, some people will never learn and cant be told enough thats its an overtaking lane only.

I personally cannot understand why people on an empty dual carraigeway or motorway feel they must remain in the overtaking lane and I have known people to move out of the way and move back into the overtaking lane when I pass. How odd.

I know you asked for less of the PC crowd but being wrong is being wrong. You were just unlucky enough to be caught.

People sit in the overtaking lane because they are either pure ignorant or else believe that its a fast lane and because they are doing over 50km/h think that they are going fast and therefore must/should use the fast lane.
There was a thread in AH recently started by someone who was giving out about people flashing her on dual carriageways. It turned out that she was unaware of the keep left rule!

jhegarty

quirke_folder wrote: »

Are you hoping for people to help you justify undertaking. You may ONLY pass on the left when doing the speed limit or under the speed limit.

I.e traffic moving in all lanes. If speed limit on a 2 lane is 100 and the guy in the overtaking is doing 80 you may pass him at 81-100 kph on his inside. It is not undertaking..........

.......Irregardless of the personal opinion of a Garda. The Law is the Law

He didn't ask anyone to justify anything , he asked how many points he would get...

or is the text hard to read from that height....

antodeco

Thanks for all the replies. What you are saying is that regardless of the speed, I wasnt as such 'undertaking' as I maintained my journey in the driving lane? If I do get a letter for 'overtaking on the left' Id be afraid to challenge it, as I was going twice the signposted speed limit.

Anan1

antodeco wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies. What you are saying is that regardless of the speed, I wasnt as such 'undertaking' as I maintained my journey in the driving lane? If I do get a letter for 'overtaking on the left' Id be afraid to challenge it, as I was going twice the signposted speed limit.

If you passed the other car on the left at 120km/h then yes, you were 'undertaking'. Like many people, I find it necessary to undertake quite regularly on Irish rules. There are, however, three golden rules:

1. Make a concerted effort to make the car in front aware that you wish to pass

2. If they refuse to move, use the horn while passing on the left. Make absolutely sure they know you're there.

3. Before embarking on any of the above, make sure that you have enough room and that there are no Garda cars, marked or unmarked, within sight.

In my book, your crime was neither speeding nor undertaking but poor observation. All that said, I have a feeling you'll hear no more about it.

Sandwich

?????
OP concedes he was doing 120 in a 60. How can u say he wasnt speeding?

cyclopath2001

slideways wrote: »

It states in the rules of the road that there is several times when it is ok to undertake or pass on the left.....One of them is when the traffic in the right hand lane is moving slower than the left hand lane.

You missed reading the most important bit, which is mentions 'slow moving queues'. When this would be the case is a matter of opinion (and occasional debate here in 'Motors'). It seems that the opinion of the Garda on this occasion was that there was no 'slow moving queue'.

Anan1

Sandwich wrote: »

?????
OP concedes he was doing 120 in a 60. How can u say he wasnt speeding?

Read it again, I didn't.

antodeco

Thanks Anan. I did see the mondeo, but he was behind a white van who was a good bit behind me in the overtaking lane (road curved). He took my licence and my address and put it all in his book. Then told me to expect a letter in the post.

Anan1

antodeco wrote: »

Thanks Anan. I did see the mondeo, but he was behind a white van who was a good bit behind me in the overtaking lane (road curved). He took my licence and my address and put it all in his book. Then told me to expect a letter in the post.

I've been balled out of it more than once over the years by the single occupants of unmarked Garda cars. One even went so far as to wave a pair of handcuffs at me. In no case, however, did I ever hear anything more about it. Assuming you were polite and apologetic, i'm sure you'll be fine.

antodeco

I was polite and even spelt my address! I didnt apologise, as that admits guilt on the scene!

Jonnykitedude

Dont be so sure dude I got mine within a few weeks!

antodeco

Being honest, I am expecting something, just not sure what!

Clare_Guy

antodeco wrote: »

Being honest, I am expecting something, just not sure what!

Did you take note of the Garda's name or number? If you can, find out what station he's from and go and talk to his Sergeant, explain what happened and tell him you're REALLY sorry and REALLY worried about what will happen to you. DO NOT mention or admit what speed you were doing.

Slidey

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You missed reading the most important bit, which is mentions 'slow moving queues'. When this would be the case is a matter of opinion (and occasional debate here in 'Motors'). It seems that the opinion of the Garda on this occasion was that there was no 'slow moving queue'.

Aye... well certain things need to be left out if one wishes to get away with it...

Jonty

How can OP get done for speeding? The speedometer in the garda car isn't a legal method of determining speed. Unless he had a dash mounted camera.

The other thing is the 60 zone. Is that 60 zone for the construction works and if so legally enforceable??

antodeco

The garda was only wearing a black tshirt (with a garda logo) and leather trousers. No numbers on him.

bazzachazza

Expect 4 points.

If you get less then consider yourself lucky.

Your biggest mistake was getting caught.

This happens everyday and is a nightmare on the roads.

I wish they would do something about drivers who sit in the right lane, Mainly taxi drivers on the M50 from my experience.

antodeco

Do you mean 4 points for underaking, or a combined 4 points?

bazzachazza

Combined.

But I'm only saying that as a worst case scenario. Prepare yourself for it just in case.

antodeco

Cool. Ive prepared for 4points anyway! Thanks!

Berty

Not necessarily four.

How can you get two points for speeding without photographic evidence?

Wait and see and if you are reported for speeding, request the photographic evidence.

antodeco

quirke_folder wrote: »

Not necessarily four.

How can you get two points for speeding without photographic evidence?

Wait and see and if you are reported for speeding, request the photographic evidence.

True, but cant the garda just give his word?

Berty

Not under EU Law.

Remember that debacle around 3 years ago when the Gardai had to get new speed cameras because they could not impose speeding fines without Evidence.

TheNog

antodeco wrote: »

My concern does lie with the fact that I was speeding. I was going the 120kph, along the 60kph stretch.

Ok first off, sorry for the long post.

I didn;t realise your speed was 120kph in a 60kph so along with undertaking the other car the guard maybe able to make a case for dangerous driving. Obviously this is more serious than dangerous overtaking and speeding combined and therefore has more serious consequences. The maximum fine I think is €5,000 and/or 6 months imprisonment. A disqualification is usually applied too.

On the other hand the guard may have not been able to determine your speed in the 60 zone if you were stopped outside of that zone. Is this the case?

Clare_Guy wrote: »

Did you take note of the Garda's name or number? If you can, find out what station he's from and go and talk to his Sergeant, explain what happened and tell him you're REALLY sorry and REALLY worried about what will happen to you. DO NOT mention or admit what speed you were doing.

For the love of god don;t go near any sergeant because he or she may press for a file. Wait and see if you are contacted by the guard first, then take it from there.

antodeco wrote: »

True, but cant the garda just give his word?

I dont think so if you were summonsed for speeding. For dangerous driving an approximate speed is good enough.

Sorry for the bad news OP

Seth Brundle

IIRC you can't get points for two offences at the same time.
I provided a link to the penalty points site and IIRC there were no points for overtaking on the left.
I'd say that it was a traffic corps car so expect points for dangerous overtaking or something!

deadwood

kbannon wrote: »

IIRC you can't get points for two offences at the same time.

He can get summonsed for them though.

antodeco

Can I be summonsed on the word of one garda though? Thought there had to be two?