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Next Generation Broadband Forum

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭ vibe666


    Chuck Norris FTW!

    (if we're wishing) :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,605 ✭✭✭ clohamon


    fergalfrog wrote: »
    For people who stumble across these pages in their search for when broadband might be enabled in their area, you may want to look at:

    http://www.williamstownoffline.com


    When will broadband be enabled in your area?


  • Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭ fergalfrog


    clohamon wrote: »
    When will broadband be enabled in your area?

    It's difficult to say - we have three different answers but it would appear by the end of the third quarter of 2009. However just because you are told you're area will be upgraded there is no guarantee your house will - you may be just outside the area being upgraded. Also other communities have contacted us to say they ended up getting broadband much later than what was advised. The list of exchanges to be prioritised seems to change all the time. Finally there are some areas that may never see broadband (in dsl form that is).


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,922 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    IMO Comreg should be disbanded and the responsibility placed with the Department Of Communications.

    The need for Comreg (ODTR before it) is no longer valid, Comreg was needed back when the government owned Eircom and therefore couldn't be seen to be regulating the market.

    Now that Eircom is private, there is no need for that distinction and Comreg/ODTR acts as a hindrance to competition. Basically the Minister for Communications can blame all the failings of the Irish telecommunications market on Comreg and Comreg can blame the government by saying that they haven't given them enough power.

    By removing Comreg you remove this shield from the minister and the DCMNR and they would then be forced to act.

    We have seen before just how effective this can be, when FRIACO was introduced. People from Ireland Off Line approached the DCMNR to introduce FRIACO, Comreg/ODTR said it couldn't be done, IOFFL pointed out the EU legislation that showed it could be done, Dermot Ahern issued a directive to Comreg and within weeks we had FRIACO, which soon brought affordable BB to Ireland.

    This just goes to show how much power the Minister and DCMR can wield when they want to.

    By getting rid of Comreg you would then be putting the pressure on the Minister to improve things once and for all and unfortunately this is why Comreg will not be abolished.

    BTW On a more positive note, has anyone else seen the news about Viviane Reding creating a EU wide super regulator to regulate all the national BB markets:
    http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/article/11501/comms/major-reform-will-lead-to-single-eu-telecoms-market

    This is great news IMO, it is clear that us Irish can't regulate ourselves, so lets give the Europeans the chance to do it as they seem to be much better at it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13 ✭✭✭ djgos


    Came across this thread while in another dark corner od Boards. I am not techie or teleco man, but just to say that E Ryan esq is worth talking to. Membership of a Dail Committtteeeee and being d'minister are two completeley different cups of yhogurt. He is worth talking to as he really does have a longterm and realistic vision. Don't let anyone put you off based on him being a Green. Me, I am sorta mid Green but this is not a party political broadcast; honest!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,864 ✭✭✭ MunsterCycling


    fergalfrog wrote: »
    In relation to NGN to view where Eircom are positioned on this go to:
    http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=OJL3QR3zFjE


    Wonder how much that work of fiction cost them... lol

    MC


  • Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭ Wcool


    It is my understanding that the talks are tonight, to the people that go: may your input be fruitful and listened to by the minister. Good luck!


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭ vibe666


    hmm, seems like they're picking and choosing who they invite. guess they didn't want my sort round these parts. :mad:

    Original Message
    Subject: RE: invitation to Next Generation Broadband consultation forum in Dublin Castle

    Dear Chris,

    Thank you for your email. Unfortunately there is no more availability for guests at the forum. However, I will ensure that your query will be followed up on and we will be in contact in that regard.

    Kindest Regards,

    Nessa McKevitt

    Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources.
    funny, I was 8th post on the thread and emailed them straight away and didn't get turned down initially. I guess I either didn't sound interesting enough, or i was asking the wrong questions.

    well, hopefully a few others got to go and I'm sure Damien et al will see us right, so I guess we just wait for them to report back in. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭ damien


    Haha the Minister chatted to BK and later on in his closing speech kept referencing the "young man" who talked about his broadband issues. Unintended Fast Show moment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭ Wcool


    So was it a media show? Let's face it, it looked like that from the start :(

    Did Eamon express any intentions?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭ fergalfrog


    I was at it and thought it was overall pretty good. I mean it is one way of the department deciding how it goes about things is to open it up for public discussion.

    I also attended a session regarding the 'digital divide' which included a presentation by John O'Raw from Letterykenny IT on how braodband was rolled out in Donegal. I can help wonder why we don't do this for what is left of the country and for less than 100 million have the whole country boradband enabled (fibre to the entire country would cost 4 billion).

    I just hope that it won't all have been a waste of time. The recommendations given by people in the know need to be actioned. There were 70 or so people there, many at their own cost and it will be very disheartening if nothing comes of it. A brave decision needs to be made to drive Ireland forward and ahead of it's European counterparts. There will be short term pain for long term gain.

    From my point of view I got to meet Rex Comb from Eircom and head of communications Paul Bradley. It was worth the trip to Dublin for this alone as it certainly beats getting your questions answered via the call centre!

    I also (mildly) ambushed Minister Ryan on his way out to present him with a petition from our own site on behalf of rural communities in North Galway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭ damien


    Wcool wrote: »
    So was it a media show? Let's face it, it looked like that from the start :(

    No it was the complete opposite. It was very worthwhile and I think most people that went got a lot of use out of it. There was a bit of luck-of-the-draw depending on the table you were on though. I think it was good for industry and civil service types to hear the viewpoints of general consumers and vice-versa. I'll write this up in detail later when I have time but more forums like these are needed but not as a replacement for actual progress, they can't just be talking shops.


  • Registered Users Posts: 575 ✭✭✭ richardw001


    One comment that I would have is that while its nice to have someone with less posts than myself - I think it would be nicer still if Minister Ryan had a less transient presence on broadband boards i.e. with two posts

    Perhaps he should consider setting up his own board - It seems to me that it might be the sort of technological leap that the Department should take - seeing as how the communications pages on the Departments website have'nt been updated for two-three months.

    It would seem to me that he may find all the information he needs about the current state of broadband in Ireland right here - that said - perhaps it would be too much of a leap for government ministers to partake in something as democratic as these boards.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 thebman


    One comment that I would have is that while its nice to have someone with less posts than myself - I think it would be nicer still if Minister Ryan had a less transient presence on broadband boards i.e. with two posts

    Perhaps he should consider setting up his own board - It seems to me that it might be the sort of technological leap that the Department should take - seeing as how the communications pages on the Departments website have'nt been updated for two-three months.

    It would seem to me that he may find all the information he needs about the current state of broadband in Ireland right here - that said - perhaps it would be too much of a leap for government ministers to partake in something as democratic as these boards.

    This isn't a democratic board, it is privately owned and controlled. Nor is there freedom of speech, they can moderate you if they don't like what your saying. Just because they rarely do it unless its warranted doesn't make it a democracy.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    Ryan has a forum FFS :(once you allow for the fact that Dempsey closed the forum in 2005 or 2006 but left the link up. It is here .

    http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/forum/

    Not one submission on the department forum has resulted in any action since it was set up in 2003 by Dermot Ahern . Not a sausage . Nada. Never .

    Furthermore all the useful comments made in that forum over the years HAVE NOW BEEN DELETED FOR EVER.

    If Ryan was serious about anything he would restore that forum and all the posts in it. But you may be sure that he will not because then there would be a permanent record of all the useful things the department was told years ago and did nothing about .

    Like Broadband :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,864 ✭✭✭ MunsterCycling


    Disgrace, but what do you expect from Dial-UP Dempsey.


    MC


  • Registered Users Posts: 575 ✭✭✭ richardw001


    I'm not really an expert in this whole area - however in my quest for adequete broadband over the last few years - I have learned that unlike many countries - where you don't have to worry about broadband - in Ireland you have to become an "expert" - just to get a quasi-acceptable level of service.
    While I don't post/contribute a whole pile - I do log in quite frequently - and I have observed that in particular there are a number of contributers that seem to know quite an amount on this area - and it seems to be one of the only places that you find out anything useful about to advances and state of the whole area of broadband.

    Anyway what I guess I'm saying is that I don't think that the department of communcations should be left away with not having a adequate electronic forum for the public to discuss issues.
    Inviting a couple of token representatives to a meeting is a start I guess - however I would just suggest that if any of you are conversing with Minister Ryan in the future - you suggest to him that if he has any value on the issue of the provision of broadband in Ireland - he should

    - Actively participate in these forums - which are the only up to date internet resource on this whole area.
    - Ensure that both his own website and Comregs website are updated on a weekly basis - and if they are not going to provide publicly accessble forums - then they should use this one.


    Just my two cents


  • Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭ bijou


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Ryan has a forum FFS :(once you allow for the fact that Dempsey closed the forum in 2005 or 2006 but left the link up. It is here .

    http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/forum/

    There must be a hell of alot of maintenance going on there for it to be closed for this long:eek:

    Is there gonna be any kind of statement published on last nights meeting. I for one would would really like to see the first generation broadband never mind the next gen:rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,922 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    damien.m wrote: »
    Haha the Minister chatted to BK and later on in his closing speech kept referencing the "young man" who talked about his broadband issues. Unintended Fast Show moment.

    Haha, yes I was the "young man" mentioned by the Minister.

    On the whole I think it was a good event with wide variety of people from different backgrounds (From all the telcos and ISP's, various government departments and industry bodies and of course a couple of us independent users) and with varying views.

    It was great that everyone was given the opportunity to get their view heard and that their was lots of fairly honest and frank discussion.

    Almost everyone agreed that we want a high quality, world class broadband infrastructure, but unsurprisingly there was a lot of disagreement about how exactly to deliver that, if the government should directly invest in it or alternatively leave it to private companies to build the infrastructure.

    The one thing I worry about is that while it was a good event, I'd be surprised if anything actually comes from it. Here in Ireland we seem to be very good at talking about things, but not so great at actually doing them. While we are all busy talking about this here in Ireland, in France, Germany, etc. they are right now digging the holes and laying the fibre right to peoples homes. They are doing what we are only talking about.

    In case the minister reads this, I'd like to thank him for inviting me and I hope that he and his staff interact more with people here on boards and that ordinary users will be invited to give their input again in the future.

    Also I urge anyone who is interested to read the policy document and to submit their views. Don't leave the telcos and ISP's be the only ones to have their say on this policy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭ fergalfrog


    At least he has updated his homepage (http://www.eamonryan.ie/)

    Look at the cached version on google and you'll see the older version (cached on Sept 25th 2008) - it had a link to:
    http://eamonryan.wordpress.com/ a blog not updated since Nov 2006!


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,922 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    BTW my earlier view of what needs to be done stands and was actually reinforced at this event.

    What we need is fibre and lots of it. We need fibre going to within 1 to 2km of every home in Ireland. This fibre needs to be open access to all suppliers. We then need carrier neutral cabinets on every street along with sub loop unbundling. You can then let the various telcos compete from these cabinets over the last mile via VDSL2, DOCSIS3 and wireless tech [1]

    The problem is who is going to build this fibre network? I just don't see any of the telcos making the necessary investment and specially not an open access network.

    [1] BTW I heard some very interesting and encouraging things about LTE (4G wireless tech), if it becomes reality we could see really good wireless BB services from the mobile phone companies and bring some much needed competition.


  • Registered Users Posts: 575 ✭✭✭ richardw001


    Could the policy document be posted - and the comments be put up here
    - It appears from what people are saying from past exp. that comments directed to the Dept in the past have disappeared into the ether -


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,028 ✭✭✭ kaizersoze


    Another talking shop that nothing will come out of.

    bk, fibre on that scale, or any scale, will never happen.
    Ryans flag is firmly pinned to the mobile/wireless masts.

    From RTE today:
    Minister Eamonn Ryan said that, thanks to a number of factors including its geographical location, Ireland has the chance to become a leader in mobile communications and wireless technologies.
    http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/1001/broadband.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,605 ✭✭✭ clohamon


    Action on the NGN consultation is dependent on the outcome of the Spectrum consultation. It in turn is dependent on an overall review of government policy on ICT which is also being carried out by DCENR.

    So it seems there's a good deal more talking/consulting to be done, by the end of which they'll probably have to start again as the world will have moved on. (The first anniversary of the International Forum on NGNs is only 5 months away.)

    The consultation document:
    http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Communications/Regulation+and+Postal+Division/Public+Consultations/NGB+Consultation.htm

    The Forum:
    http://www.ammado.com/Communities/CommunityHome.lnk/1192


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭ damien


    Perhaps he should consider setting up his own board - It seems to me that it might be the sort of technological leap that the Department should take - seeing as how the communications pages on the Departments website have'nt been updated for two-three months.

    There's already too much redundancy. There's what appears to be a private forum on Ammado for the people who were there yesterday to discuss issues and nobody is using it. (I have access) We do not need another forum and people should not have to go to another bloody website and register.

    Here (Boards.ie) is where it's at in terms of consumers and broadband. The Dept. needs to and should come to Boards.ie who already have 140k people here. You go where the crowd are, plus Boards.ie are pretty much a neutral third party and will only moderate what needs to be moderated so nobody in control will be tempted to remove any posts that the Department doesn't like. I think the Department themselves are getting this now, thus a Minister posting here on Broadband and have a gawk at a few threads (from what I've heard). Given there isn't enough resources for the Dept to maintain their website let alone a forum, here is perfect.

    If it turns out a Minister comes along here and interacts from time to time, what best use of his very limited time should be made of it? How do you boil it all down into a few points?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    damien.m wrote: »
    If it turns out a Minister comes along here and interacts from time to time, what best use of his very limited time should be made of it? How do you boil it all down into a few points?

    I'll boil his head if I catch him more like :(

    Ryan has been in Comms for over 6 years , 5 in opposition a spokespersoning and over 1 as minister for what he shadowed .

    In that time NGN has rolled out in Ireland . Smart Magnet ESB MAN is all NGN . It happened about 4 or 5 years ago, on his watch !

    It is not COMING it is fukcing HERE!. The issue is how close it must be pushed by the state towards the average consumer/business/resident and HOW !

    BK says 1-2km . He has a point but I fear that the cost would be eyewatering . So that is no from me.

    I feel that this much can be done in 3 distinct phases .

    1. Where NGN is pushed ( more ESB / Bord Gáis / MAN fibres) to within 30km of every citizen . Cost under €100m and makes carrier grade wireless ubiquitous ( not the inferior 3G or 2G EDGE dialup substitutes )

    2. Where NGN is brought to within 1km of each person in the 15 biggest towns in conjuction with sub loop unbundling for deployment of VDSL type technologies. On top of existing phone wire ducts and near TV cable distribution nodes. Cost c. €120m

    3. Where NGN is brought to within 3-4km of each person in the rest of the state in conjuction with sub loop unbundling for ADSL2+ type technologies.

    VDSL2+ would actually be deployed given technological advances/costs but not guaranteed as in the cities .

    As VDSL2+ is hypersensitive to distance it is accepted that many or most rural customers would have ADSL2+ which is more effective at distance over copper.

    Cost c. €300m

    Total cost c.€500m .

    Leave the rest to the market unless GPON is feasible in which case a genuine PPP ( Council/Local Groups) project could apply for GPON installation grants if it could be done for €500 per proposed unit and the homeowner paid at least half . This would be on existing ducting , no major new digs.

    The national mapping for stages 2 and 3 can be done cheaply right now so that all ducting that is installed in conjunction with service digging by local authorities can be presented back to the intended nodes as it is done...water sewage or even simple footpath laying No water and sewage schemes should be laid without these ducts starting now. No buildings should be built witthout ducting , talk to Gormley about building planning guidelines now.

    All those shiny new motorways come with extensive ducting for example. Empty !

    Where this ducting is done then the copper sub loop may in some cases be bypassed by modern GPON or GEPON fibre technologies not crappy Irish copper.

    3G LTE would be a mobility /infill technology not a solution and not in Ireland before 2014 anyway for spectral reasons .

    I explained clearly why 3 months ago HERE

    Ryan keeps quoting crappy 3g coverage as being Broadband indicating either that he hasn't a bloody clue ( at best ) or is lying mendaciously ( at worst) so if he still keeps on lying about that then there is no hope anyway .

    Remove 3g penetration from ALL DCENR BB stats forthwith as a sign of goodwill and intent to do something useful.

    It is an indicator of utter desperation and of systemic market failure in Ireland and is not a proper BB solution at all.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,922 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Sponge Bob, excellent post I agree with almost everything you say.

    When I say 1 - 2 km of every home, obviously it isn't something that will happen overnight, instead it would happen in stages, almost exactly how you describe, just a few points.

    - In point 3, by the time we actually get to the third stage, it is likely that VDSL2 gear will cost the same as ADSL2+ gear (or close enough not to matter), then you might as well go with VDSL2 as it will give high speeds to those who live within the first 1 - 2km and it preforms the same as ADSL2+ over further distances.

    - Another thing to consider in rural areas is the use of a lot of pair gains and the general awful condition of a lot of telephone lines will limit the speeds that can be delivered. It is likely that 4G wireless will need to play a big part in rural areas and I can only hope that it delivers what it is promising (of course I take a lot of it with pinch of salt until I see it with my own eyes).

    One thing that people haven't seemed to consider is that while it is true that 40% of Irelands population live in rural areas, it isn't quiet that dispersed. People seem to have forgotten their geography lessons from school that thought us that must rural housing tends to be built along and close to roads in a ribbon style and not simply dotted all around the country side.

    This could potentially lead to some interesting solutions like running fibre along the telephone and electricity poles with pole mounted DSLAMS and wireless. This would significantly reduce the roll out costs.

    Unfortunately it seems that the only figure that I hear mentioned constantly is the 4 billion to do FTTH for every home in Ireland. Unfortunately it seems that this is the only figure that the government has considered and unsurprisingly have rejected it. It doesn't seem like they have considered any of the cheaper solutions, like the one SB details above and which would be much more achievable and still deliver excellent speeds and a bases of a network that could easily be improved upon in future.

    Sponge Bob, if you haven't already, I hope you submit this to the consultation. Sure nothing might come of it, but it is certainly worth a try.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 Sponge Bob


    bk wrote: »
    Sponge Bob, excellent post I agree with almost everything you say.

    When I say 1 - 2 km of every home, obviously it isn't something that will happen overnight, instead it would happen in stages, almost exactly how you describe, just a few points.

    - In point 3, by the time we actually get to the third stage, it is likely that VDSL2 gear will cost the same as ADSL2+ gear (or close enough not to matter), then you might as well go with VDSL2 as it will give high speeds to those who live within the first 1 - 2km and it preforms the same as ADSL2+ over further distances.

    3. Where NGN is brought to within 3-4km of each person in the rest of the state in conjuction with sub loop unbundling for ADSL2+ type technologies. Cost c. €250m

    change to

    3. Where NGN is brought to within 3-4km of each person in the rest of the state in conjuction with sub loop unbundling for ADSL2+ type technologies. VDSL2+ would be deployed given technological advances/costs but as VDSL2+ is hypersensitive to distance it is accepted that many or most rural customers would have ADSL2+ which is more effective at distance over copper.

    Cost c. €250m

    I am leaving the final mile subloop or wireless solution to the market .
    Another thing to consider in rural areas is the use of a lot of pair gains and the general awful condition of a lot of telephone lines will limit the speeds that can be delivered.

    Sub loops may not have pairgains and must be presented clean by Subloop LLU regulations :D sure no copper run will be over 3-4km.
    It is likely that 4G wireless will need to play a big part in rural areas and I can only hope that it delivers what it is promising (of course I take a lot of it with pinch of salt until I see it with my own eyes).

    well 4g and other wireless has a much better reach and because of the phasing no backhaul beed be over 30km after phase one.
    This could potentially lead to some interesting solutions like running fibre along the telephone and electricity poles with pole mounted DSLAMS and wireless. This would significantly reduce the roll out costs.

    The wind my son ,the wind. Actually I thought you were older until Ryan outed you :D
    Unfortunately it seems that the only figure that I hear mentioned constantly is the 4 billion to do FTTH for every home in Ireland. Unfortunately it seems that this is the only figure that the government has considered and unsurprisingly have rejected it. It doesn't seem like they have considered any of the cheaper solutions, like the one SB details above and which would be much more achievable and still deliver excellent speeds and a bases of a network that could easily be improved upon in future.

    You could add a stage 4 costing €3bn of course :D
    Sponge Bob, if you haven't already, I hope you submit this to the consultation. Sure nothing might come of it, but it is certainly worth a try.

    Let him copy and paste it, I doubt if he cares/is listening and the proposal is out there now . For the record I believe he is as visionless as most of his sad predecessors were :(

    All I want him to do to show he is listening is to restate the BB figures MINUS 3g .

    I might actually take notice then. For now he is a broken record minister presiding over a muppetatious regulatory environment that is destroying this country :(

    I am not the only proponent of such a solution.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56347274&postcount=19
    Access to the vast amount of Government owned duct, planning for new street cabs, new policies on laying of open access duct to new developments, laying new duct when building roads, railways, water schemes, burying OH cables etc etc etc would all be very welcome and would have an immediate impact on investment in telecoms if done in an open transparent and SIMPLE manner with equal treatment for all.

    (Related:)

    Communications Minister Eamon Ryan visited Japan last week to examine Japan's growth as a 'ubiquitous networked society' and to identify how Ireland can learn from the Japanese experience. Addressing the annual Ireland-Japan Chamber of Commerce meeting, Minister Ryan explained that the two countries will work together "to build on current collaborations and to identify and facilitate new opportunities across a range of technology solutions to address the many common challenges we both face as successful developed economies."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,442 Firetrap


    kaizersoze wrote: »
    Another talking shop that nothing will come out of.

    bk, fibre on that scale, or any scale, will never happen.
    Ryans flag is firmly pinned to the mobile/wireless masts.

    From RTE today:

    http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/1001/broadband.html

    This is exactly what I didn't want to see. :rolleyes:


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,922 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Sub loops may not have pairgains and must be presented clean by Subloop LLU regulations :D sure no copper run will be over 3-4km.

    Ah, we can dream.

    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    The wind my son ,the wind. Actually I thought you were older until Ryan outed you :D

    Well this is how Verizon are rolling out FTTH in the US: http://www.bricklin.com/fiosinstall.htm

    However thinking about it further, your probably right, if you were going to do this then you might as well go all he way to FTTH.

    When people estimate FTTH to cost 4 Billion, I wonder are the basing the cost on it all been buried or looking at solutions like Verizon?

    I'm starting to question the 4 billion figure, in the US Verizon estimate the CAPEX to be $1730 at the end of 2006 after dropping from $2221 at the start of 2006. Going by these figures it would put an Irish rollout for under 2 billion?

    Also it is interesting to note that Verizon report a 70% reduction in OPEX where they replace copper with Fibre. (The one danger with this is it would kill LLU unless other operators were also given access to the network).

    BTW I'm not going to be given the chance to live down the "young man" comment, am I :eek:


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