BJJ Cash grabbing?

Gorman · 15-09-2008 04:35PM #1

The Gracie thread got me thinking

Is charging for belt tests in BJJ the norm or is it considered a cash grab? I know people who have paid for belt tests from legit instructors (almost always Brazilian).

What's the general rule? Is it common practice?

spiral · 15-09-2008 04:46PM

I'd say it varies. Some do some dont.
Some places dont really test but give the belts to as they see fit.
Sometimes testing is done at the end of a seminar by a visting instructor and included in the seminar fee sometimes its extra.
I dont have a problem paying a few quid to do a test. But paying for stripes etc is a bit rich I think.

cowzerp · 15-09-2008 05:04PM

BJJ would be 1 of the best as far as belt testing goes, bjj has a good name, a well known kickboxing club that i cant talk about on here charge crazy money!

but some clubs will also take advantage more than others, that goes without saying..human nature.

Roper · 15-09-2008 05:11PM

Do something for free and you'll never be idle.

Charging a couple of quid for your time and effort is fair game but it shouldn't be too much. Ultimately though value of something is determined by how much people are willing to pay for it. If someone wants to pay €100 for a piece of material then that's their business.

David Jones · 15-09-2008 05:21PM

No charge in most clubs in the states i have been to, as there is no formal grading exam. If and when you are good enough you get your belt or tshirt

One of my main dislikes of Karate was that it cost my folks a fortune in grading during 18 years of training. Completely lining instructors pockets for no other reason.

Roper · 15-09-2008 05:38PM

Can I give another slant to this? I'm really playing devil's advocate as I agree with everything said so far.

I grade the kids in my junior classes, and I charge. The reason I do this is that my kids classes operate from month to month at either a loss or a very slim margin, depending on the amount who turn up. The grading, as I see it, not only offers them the incentives to keep training (kids can be fickle and don't always love it just for the fun so I do some things just to keep them interested), but also pays the rent as it were, without consistently stinging the parents in their pocket from month to month. In other words, charging for grade for some kids every couple of months keeps the price down for everyone every month. I have a small class of kids and given what I teach I can't see that changing any time soon, so it's about striking a balance.

That being said, I know of at least one organisation that charges about €300 for a black belt test. Yowza!

dlofnep · 15-09-2008 05:44PM

Roper, that's just covering the bills. I wouldn't worry about that. I think they are referring to the people who are profitting from it.

Gorman · 15-09-2008 10:34PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Roper, that's just covering the bills. I wouldn't worry about that. I think they are referring to the people who are profitting from it.

Correct - keeping your gym afloat is the other end of the spectrum.

when I got my first (and only) belt it wasn't really a test, just a really hard training for everyone that was testing. At the end of it we got our belts etc. I can't remember paying anything. Since then, TUF went on air and the numbers have really grown (which is great BTW), also I'm pretty sure you are charged for a belt test now.

Belts kinda annoy me in the 1st place, i think they're fine as long as people don't pay too much attention to them, but having to pay for them makes the situation worse.

Nothingcompares · 15-09-2008 11:20PM

I've paid for all my belts (around 20-30 euro). In fact I've paid for gradings that I've failed. What kind of chump am I?

It's not the promotion you pay for, it's the grading. It's 25 euro for a competition it's about the same for the grading, taking into account there's a guy who has come in to examine you. You pay for your driving test, you pay for the leaving cert...

dlofnep · 15-09-2008 11:37PM

Aye yeah, I paid for my judo gradings too. Kinda defeats the purpose of earning the belt $:\$

Nothingcompares · 16-09-2008 01:03AM

I don't think so. All the universities and colleges charge you for your degree, for the actual parchment and the graduation ceremony.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 16-09-2008 07:12AM

Well I've never regularly trained BJJ so I don't know about grading and prices there.

When I gave up kickboxing the club I trained with charged €30- for any grade.

But I do know a lad who paid (Jon you know him too!) wait for this - SEVEN HUNDRED AND FIFTY EURO for a test on his 3rd dan because the good general testing was coming from Korea :pac: (sorry but I had to laugh in his face)

I like Judo's system whereby you grade to green in the club and there after you've to fight and win your belts, and its free. So, you have Blue/Brown or Black you've trained hard, fought hard and won it.

Only thing I would say OP re. charging. Some of the clubs running BJJ classes are now full time commercial ventures and I see absolutely nothing wrong with them charging to both cover costs and show a profit.

RearNakedJim · 16-09-2008 10:31AM

If you want to be judged at a formal grading then yeah i dont see the problem with being charged.

That been said alot of the time after performing well in competition your coach can just turn up and give it to ya. eg. Clive and gunni more recently.

Pingu · 16-09-2008 11:14AM

Mairt wrote: »

...I like Judo's system whereby you grade to green in the club and there after you've to fight and win your belts, and its free. So, you have Blue/Brown or Black you've trained hard, fought hard and won it....

It's not free for the gradings above green. I think it's €15-€20 for grades up to green then it's €40 for the grading in Finglas. It's understandable that they have to charge for it as they have to get hall and the referees/graders. Some of whom come from Galway and Tyrone.

ryoishin · 16-09-2008 11:42AM

Whe I did karate you had to pay for your grades like 15 euro I think but the class was only 2.50 euro so I had no prob with it.

If someone from outside your club is coming in to grade you then I think its ok to charge.
Or charging a small amount to your own students is ok esp if your giving certs.

Id be weary of instructors who have mass grading around Christmas time though.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 16-09-2008 12:52PM

Pingu wrote: »

It's not free for the gradings above green. I think it's €15-€20 for grades up to green then it's €40 for the grading in Finglas. It's understandable that they have to charge for it as they have to get hall and the referees/graders. Some of whom come from Galway and Tyrone.

I stand corrected then, I genuinely couldn't remember if I'd just renewed my licence or paid for grading when I was doing it.

Either way, unlike some systems the claim can not be levelled at Judo that the guys 'bought' their belts.

Pingu · 16-09-2008 01:12PM

Big difference between buying your belt and having to fight for it, 11 days to go to the next one and most of the green belts in the country suddenly have a dose of "grading-itis" sure it'll be a nice warm up for the Irish Open.

When gradings are performance related can they really be seen as cash grabs, or is it people whom fail to pass the grading feel hard done by? At the end of the day you have to at the very least cover the graders expenses?

Also which MA's have performance related gradings, I know Judo and BJJ do, any others?

Gorman · 16-09-2008 05:50PM

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I've paid for all my belts (around 20-30 euro). In fact I've paid for gradings that I've failed. What kind of chump am I?
.

OK, I'll bite

If you're training with your instructor, week in week out, you're definitly a chump, cos he shouldn't ask you to do a test, take your money and then fail you! Are you talking about BJJ?

Where I train you're only asked to to a "Test" if your gonna get promoted. The coach sees your improvement and competition performances etc and decides to promote you. The "Test" is just the official promotion day.

If you're getting promoted by someone you don't see regularly, I've no idea how that works.

Nothingcompares · 16-09-2008 06:10PM

One was a judo blue and the other was a BJJ blue. I thought I was at the appropriate standard for both and my respective coaches encouraged me to go. FOr the judo I just didn't know the information I was asked and the person taking the grading, not my usual instructor, failed me (and quite rightly I suppose). The BJJ was similar it was a seminar with the head of the association (Matt Thornton, SBG) and based on what he saw he said I was close but needed a few more months on the mats.

Nothingcompares · 16-09-2008 06:16PM

Pingu wrote: »

Also which MA's have performance related gradings, I know Judo and BJJ do, any others?

I think the biggest difference between the Judo gradings I did in the IJA and the BJJ gradings I did with SBG was the attitude towards performance and winning. IN a Judo grading, you can do lovely techniques with a compliant partner, show your Kata to the Japanese standard but still go and win your matches by basically rugby tackling people and holding them down using your brute strength. If you're much more physical and bigger than your opponents (which is sometimes the case) this can happen. For the judo system, all that matters is that you win your matches by Ippon or wazari not the qualify of the judo.

At the BJJ gradings it wasn't important if you were bashing your opponents and getting hold downs or even submissions (aka beating your opponent) but my interpretation was it was the manner (style and substance) of your bjj which was being examined. Where you doing the "correct" things at the correct time? Was the movement there? The right idea? Rather than did you win the bout.

But most importantly, in both cases, with regard to time the people that deserve to get promoted get promoted sometimes a fellow gets his belt a bit prematurely or has to fail a grading to get there but it all evens out at the end (imo).

Pingu · 17-09-2008 11:18AM

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I think the biggest difference between the Judo gradings I did in the IJA and the BJJ gradings I did with SBG was the attitude towards performance and winning. IN a Judo grading, you can do lovely techniques with a compliant partner, show your Kata to the Japanese standard but still go and win your matches by basically rugby tackling people and holding them down using your brute strength. If you're much more physical and bigger than your opponents (which is sometimes the case) this can happen. For the judo system, all that matters is that you win your matches by Ippon or wazari not the qualify of the judo.

At the BJJ gradings it wasn't important if you were bashing your opponents and getting hold downs or even submissions (aka beating your opponent) but my interpretation was it was the manner (style and substance) of your bjj which was being examined. Where you doing the "correct" things at the correct time? Was the movement there? The right idea? Rather than did you win the bout.

But most importantly, in both cases, with regard to time the people that deserve to get promoted get promoted sometimes a fellow gets his belt a bit prematurely or has to fail a grading to get there but it all evens out at the end (imo).

In fairness at the last grading they split the weights, so it was even enough. Although there were a few bruised egos at the end of the day, especially with the self proclaimed "Best Green Belt in the Country" - muppet :pac:.

"Rugby tackling a guy" (Morote Gari) is a valid technique, and is quite hard to pull off, so your opponent should step out or grip up properly. Pinning someone is acceptable, I mean if you're pinning with just strength and not with proper placement of that strength then it's your opponents fault if they can't escape. A grading shouldn't be withheld on someone due to the fact that their opponents weren't up to scratch.

And the fact that you can do lovely techniques with a compliant partner and do your kata is great and shows you have an understanding of the throws and of judo, but at the end of the day that's only a portion of the requirements. You've gotta be able to reach the standard in all parts of the test.

SorGan · 17-09-2008 01:56PM

kata? in judo? really?

Pingu · 17-09-2008 02:15PM

Yes it's part of Judo alright, although I can't say my last one was the best

If anyone is really bored in work there's a teaching video of it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wsQE6K3a6s

john kavanagh · 17-09-2008 02:34PM

Pingu wrote: »

A grading shouldn't be withheld on someone due to the fact that their opponents weren't up to scratch.

and thats the difference because in theory a bjj white belt could beat all other white belts at a testing and still fail. also he could lose to all white belts and still pass. this would of course be highly unusual but it is possible.

kevin explained the 'why' perfectly so i wont.

sbg bjj testings are difficult to evaluate as they are entirely subjective, no set curriculum. instead we look for the individual to be moving the 'right way' (leverage + timing) in all positions as opposed to 'winning' (powering an armbar on or escape from side control using only strength).

at least in SBGi anyway, of which its my role as bjj technical director to set the standard. some organisations will give out belts purely on competition performance, some have begun to bring in curriculums, some on how long you are training etc etc i can only speak for SBGi.

17-09-2008 02:45PM

I pretty mcuh agree with what Roper said. I wouldnt mind paying if it was done in a way whereby u roll with the instructor and then the decision is made based on what the instructor sees from rolling with you. You are effectively buying his time rather than "buying your belt". However the charge should be relatively minimal as I don't believe that charging huge amounts is what martial arts is really about.

Judomad · 17-09-2008 02:56PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I pretty mcuh agree with what Roper said. I wouldnt mind paying if it was done in a way whereby u roll with the instructor and then the decision is made based on what the instructor sees from rolling with you. You are effectively buying his time rather than "buying your belt". However the charge should be relatively minimal as I don't believe that charging huge amounts is what martial arts is really about.

dude its 2008 and we're in recession lol.......people will do anything for a few dollars nowadays!!!

17-09-2008 04:03PM

Judomad wrote: »

dude its 2008 and we're in recession lol.......people will do anything for a few dollars nowadays!!!

I dont live in a country that deals in dollars so Im recession proof! :pac:

Dont u think gym fees are enough? Privates...fine...but if a guys literally just handing you a belt dont you think its cheapened if u have to pay €100? Dont get me wrong, a guy making a livin off being a martial arts instructor is great, Im all for it, I support it, what I mean is literally paying for the belt.

Pingu · 17-09-2008 04:09PM

john kavanagh wrote: »

... in theory a bjj white belt could beat all other white belts at a testing and still fail. also he could lose to all white belts and still pass...

In Judo if you go up to your grading and win all your fights you could still fail if you can't perform the required throws, hold downs, escapes and submissions. Or indeed if you can't perform the Kata. So you can't just show up and run through everyone there.

By having a syllabus in addition to the competitive side it removes the subjective element of just the instructors opinion, which I would see leading to a more transparent system overall.

Gorman · 17-09-2008 04:17PM

Cheers for the input, it looks like it is the norm to pay for a promotion in BJJ, especially when an out of town instructor comes into to do the promotion.
For the majority, the fees are small and there's no complaints.

john kavanagh · 17-09-2008 04:28PM

so in judo there's 2 elements

1. monkey see, monkey do. basically learn off set moves and perform them without resistance. this would have no place in an sbg bjj grading as it has no bearing on whether or not you can do it 'alive'.

one of ireland's best ever judo players, andy ryan, told me he used to learn all the set moves the day before a grading and promptly forget them the day after.

2. sparring. and according to you it should not matter what the standard of your opponent is, only that you win. again as explained this is very different to the approach taken in an SBG grading. i have to take into account the difference in physical ability of a 40 something yr old going up against a 22 year old cross fit addict. the belt in bjj is not a representation of their physical fitness, its on their understanding of the art. a light girl may not be able to 'win' against a big strong guy but a bjj blackbelt should be able to tell who has the blue belt 'game'.

i'm not trying to say which is better, i really couldnt care. i'm just trying to be clear as to what is measured in an SBG BJJ grading.

"By having a syllabus in addition to the competitive side it removes the subjective element of just the instructors opinion, which I would see leading to a more transparent system overall. "

that is true in some bjj schools....for me i think its a bad thing because

1. syllabus - monkey see, monkey do
2. competition - the most skillful guy doesnt always win (especially true in the lower belts), a stronger fitter opponent can beat a more technical opponent based on the ruleset.

bjj belts, imo, should be based on skill level only - the ability to perform the correct technique at the right time.

Judomad · 17-09-2008 04:34PM

john kavanagh wrote: »

so in judo there's 2 elements

1. monkey see, monkey do. basically learn off set moves and perform them without resistance. this would have no place in an sbg bjj grading as it has no bearing on whether or not you can do it 'alive'.

one of ireland's best ever judo players, andy ryan, told me he used to learn all the set moves the day before a grading and promptly forget them the day after.

2. sparring. and according to you it should not matter what the standard of your opponent is, only that you win. again as explained this is very different to the approach taken in an SBG grading. i have to take into account the difference in physical ability of a 40 something yr old going up against a 22 year old cross fit addict. the belt in bjj is not a representation of their physical fitness, its on their understanding of the art. a light girl may not be able to 'win' against a big strong guy but a bjj blackbelt should be able to tell who has the blue belt 'game'.

i'm not trying to say which is better, i really couldnt care. i'm just trying to be clear as to what is measured in an SBG BJJ grading.

"By having a syllabus in addition to the competitive side it removes the subjective element of just the instructors opinion, which I would see leading to a more transparent system overall. "

that is true in some bjj schools....for me i think its a bad thing because

1. syllabus - monkey see, monkey do
2. competition - the most skillful guy doesnt always win (especially true in the lower belts), a stronger fitter opponent can beat a more technical opponent based on the ruleset.

bjj belts, imo, should be based on skill level only - the ability to perform the correct technique at the right time.

JK in Judo we fought for our grades, not sparred, its a national DAN grading against other people trying to win there belts too, you have to build up 100 points, 10 wins by ippon basically, you get 5 fights per grading, there is however botsakahn where if you win your 5 fights you get the equivilant of 100points, thats when the "monkey see, monkey do" starts, but other people you fight in these grading comps are trying to win there belts too so to say sparring would be wrong....thats just my imput, not saying a certain way is better than another, just thought it was unfair to say getting a black belt in judo is easy because that isn't the case, i was 60kg when i got mine, having to fight lads at the same belt standard but any weight isnt easy, i had some fights against lads 100-120kgs, not easy for a young light guy to do!!!!!

BJJ Cash grabbing?

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