BJJ Cash grabbing?

Gorman

The Gracie thread got me thinking

Is charging for belt tests in BJJ the norm or is it considered a cash grab? I know people who have paid for belt tests from legit instructors (almost always Brazilian).

What's the general rule? Is it common practice?

spiral

I'd say it varies. Some do some dont.
Some places dont really test but give the belts to as they see fit.
Sometimes testing is done at the end of a seminar by a visting instructor and included in the seminar fee sometimes its extra.
I dont have a problem paying a few quid to do a test. But paying for stripes etc is a bit rich I think.

cowzerp

BJJ would be 1 of the best as far as belt testing goes, bjj has a good name, a well known kickboxing club that i cant talk about on here charge crazy money!

but some clubs will also take advantage more than others, that goes without saying..human nature.

Roper

Do something for free and you'll never be idle.

Charging a couple of quid for your time and effort is fair game but it shouldn't be too much. Ultimately though value of something is determined by how much people are willing to pay for it. If someone wants to pay €100 for a piece of material then that's their business.

David Jones

No charge in most clubs in the states i have been to, as there is no formal grading exam. If and when you are good enough you get your belt or tshirt One of my main dislikes of Karate was that it cost my folks a fortune in grading during 18 years of training. Completely lining instructors pockets for no other reason.

Roper

Can I give another slant to this? I'm really playing devil's advocate as I agree with everything said so far.

I grade the kids in my junior classes, and I charge. The reason I do this is that my kids classes operate from month to month at either a loss or a very slim margin, depending on the amount who turn up. The grading, as I see it, not only offers them the incentives to keep training (kids can be fickle and don't always love it just for the fun so I do some things just to keep them interested), but also pays the rent as it were, without consistently stinging the parents in their pocket from month to month. In other words, charging for grade for some kids every couple of months keeps the price down for everyone every month. I have a small class of kids and given what I teach I can't see that changing any time soon, so it's about striking a balance.

That being said, I know of at least one organisation that charges about €300 for a black belt test. Yowza!

dlofnep

Roper, that's just covering the bills. I wouldn't worry about that. I think they are referring to the people who are profitting from it.

Gorman

dlofnep wrote: »

Roper, that's just covering the bills. I wouldn't worry about that. I think they are referring to the people who are profitting from it.

Correct - keeping your gym afloat is the other end of the spectrum.

when I got my first (and only) belt it wasn't really a test, just a really hard training for everyone that was testing. At the end of it we got our belts etc. I can't remember paying anything. Since then, TUF went on air and the numbers have really grown (which is great BTW), also I'm pretty sure you are charged for a belt test now.

Belts kinda annoy me in the 1st place, i think they're fine as long as people don't pay too much attention to them, but having to pay for them makes the situation worse.

Nothingcompares

I've paid for all my belts (around 20-30 euro). In fact I've paid for gradings that I've failed. What kind of chump am I?

It's not the promotion you pay for, it's the grading. It's 25 euro for a competition it's about the same for the grading, taking into account there's a guy who has come in to examine you. You pay for your driving test, you pay for the leaving cert...

dlofnep

Aye yeah, I paid for my judo gradings too. Kinda defeats the purpose of earning the belt

Nothingcompares

I don't think so. All the universities and colleges charge you for your degree, for the actual parchment and the graduation ceremony.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Well I've never regularly trained BJJ so I don't know about grading and prices there.

When I gave up kickboxing the club I trained with charged €30- for any grade.

But I do know a lad who paid (Jon you know him too!) wait for this - SEVEN HUNDRED AND FIFTY EURO for a test on his 3rd dan because the good general testing was coming from Korea :pac: (sorry but I had to laugh in his face)

I like Judo's system whereby you grade to green in the club and there after you've to fight and win your belts, and its free. So, you have Blue/Brown or Black you've trained hard, fought hard and won it.

Only thing I would say OP re. charging. Some of the clubs running BJJ classes are now full time commercial ventures and I see absolutely nothing wrong with them charging to both cover costs and show a profit.

RearNakedJim

If you want to be judged at a formal grading then yeah i dont see the problem with being charged.

That been said alot of the time after performing well in competition your coach can just turn up and give it to ya. eg. Clive and gunni more recently.

Pingu

Mairt wrote: »

...I like Judo's system whereby you grade to green in the club and there after you've to fight and win your belts, and its free. So, you have Blue/Brown or Black you've trained hard, fought hard and won it....

It's not free for the gradings above green. I think it's €15-€20 for grades up to green then it's €40 for the grading in Finglas. It's understandable that they have to charge for it as they have to get hall and the referees/graders. Some of whom come from Galway and Tyrone.

ryoishin

Whe I did karate you had to pay for your grades like 15 euro I think but the class was only 2.50 euro so I had no prob with it.

If someone from outside your club is coming in to grade you then I think its ok to charge.
Or charging a small amount to your own students is ok esp if your giving certs.

Id be weary of instructors who have mass grading around Christmas time though.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Pingu wrote: »

It's not free for the gradings above green. I think it's €15-€20 for grades up to green then it's €40 for the grading in Finglas. It's understandable that they have to charge for it as they have to get hall and the referees/graders. Some of whom come from Galway and Tyrone.

I stand corrected then, I genuinely couldn't remember if I'd just renewed my licence or paid for grading when I was doing it.

Either way, unlike some systems the claim can not be levelled at Judo that the guys 'bought' their belts.

Pingu

Big difference between buying your belt and having to fight for it, 11 days to go to the next one and most of the green belts in the country suddenly have a dose of "grading-itis" sure it'll be a nice warm up for the Irish Open.

When gradings are performance related can they really be seen as cash grabs, or is it people whom fail to pass the grading feel hard done by? At the end of the day you have to at the very least cover the graders expenses?

Also which MA's have performance related gradings, I know Judo and BJJ do, any others?

Gorman

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I've paid for all my belts (around 20-30 euro). In fact I've paid for gradings that I've failed. What kind of chump am I?
.

OK, I'll bite
If you're training with your instructor, week in week out, you're definitly a chump, cos he shouldn't ask you to do a test, take your money and then fail you! Are you talking about BJJ?

Where I train you're only asked to to a "Test" if your gonna get promoted. The coach sees your improvement and competition performances etc and decides to promote you. The "Test" is just the official promotion day.

If you're getting promoted by someone you don't see regularly, I've no idea how that works.

Nothingcompares

One was a judo blue and the other was a BJJ blue. I thought I was at the appropriate standard for both and my respective coaches encouraged me to go. FOr the judo I just didn't know the information I was asked and the person taking the grading, not my usual instructor, failed me (and quite rightly I suppose). The BJJ was similar it was a seminar with the head of the association (Matt Thornton, SBG) and based on what he saw he said I was close but needed a few more months on the mats.

Nothingcompares

Pingu wrote: »

Also which MA's have performance related gradings, I know Judo and BJJ do, any others?

I think the biggest difference between the Judo gradings I did in the IJA and the BJJ gradings I did with SBG was the attitude towards performance and winning. IN a Judo grading, you can do lovely techniques with a compliant partner, show your Kata to the Japanese standard but still go and win your matches by basically rugby tackling people and holding them down using your brute strength. If you're much more physical and bigger than your opponents (which is sometimes the case) this can happen. For the judo system, all that matters is that you win your matches by Ippon or wazari not the qualify of the judo.

At the BJJ gradings it wasn't important if you were bashing your opponents and getting hold downs or even submissions (aka beating your opponent) but my interpretation was it was the manner (style and substance) of your bjj which was being examined. Where you doing the "correct" things at the correct time? Was the movement there? The right idea? Rather than did you win the bout.

But most importantly, in both cases, with regard to time the people that deserve to get promoted get promoted sometimes a fellow gets his belt a bit prematurely or has to fail a grading to get there but it all evens out at the end (imo).

Pingu

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I think the biggest difference between the Judo gradings I did in the IJA and the BJJ gradings I did with SBG was the attitude towards performance and winning. IN a Judo grading, you can do lovely techniques with a compliant partner, show your Kata to the Japanese standard but still go and win your matches by basically rugby tackling people and holding them down using your brute strength. If you're much more physical and bigger than your opponents (which is sometimes the case) this can happen. For the judo system, all that matters is that you win your matches by Ippon or wazari not the qualify of the judo.

At the BJJ gradings it wasn't important if you were bashing your opponents and getting hold downs or even submissions (aka beating your opponent) but my interpretation was it was the manner (style and substance) of your bjj which was being examined. Where you doing the "correct" things at the correct time? Was the movement there? The right idea? Rather than did you win the bout.

But most importantly, in both cases, with regard to time the people that deserve to get promoted get promoted sometimes a fellow gets his belt a bit prematurely or has to fail a grading to get there but it all evens out at the end (imo).

In fairness at the last grading they split the weights, so it was even enough. Although there were a few bruised egos at the end of the day, especially with the self proclaimed "Best Green Belt in the Country" - muppet :pac:.

"Rugby tackling a guy" (Morote Gari) is a valid technique, and is quite hard to pull off, so your opponent should step out or grip up properly. Pinning someone is acceptable, I mean if you're pinning with just strength and not with proper placement of that strength then it's your opponents fault if they can't escape. A grading shouldn't be withheld on someone due to the fact that their opponents weren't up to scratch.

And the fact that you can do lovely techniques with a compliant partner and do your kata is great and shows you have an understanding of the throws and of judo, but at the end of the day that's only a portion of the requirements. You've gotta be able to reach the standard in all parts of the test.

SorGan

kata? in judo? really?

Pingu

Yes it's part of Judo alright, although I can't say my last one was the best

If anyone is really bored in work there's a teaching video of it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wsQE6K3a6s

john kavanagh

Pingu wrote: »

A grading shouldn't be withheld on someone due to the fact that their opponents weren't up to scratch.

and thats the difference because in theory a bjj white belt could beat all other white belts at a testing and still fail. also he could lose to all white belts and still pass. this would of course be highly unusual but it is possible.

kevin explained the 'why' perfectly so i wont.

sbg bjj testings are difficult to evaluate as they are entirely subjective, no set curriculum. instead we look for the individual to be moving the 'right way' (leverage + timing) in all positions as opposed to 'winning' (powering an armbar on or escape from side control using only strength).

at least in SBGi anyway, of which its my role as bjj technical director to set the standard. some organisations will give out belts purely on competition performance, some have begun to bring in curriculums, some on how long you are training etc etc i can only speak for SBGi.

I pretty mcuh agree with what Roper said. I wouldnt mind paying if it was done in a way whereby u roll with the instructor and then the decision is made based on what the instructor sees from rolling with you. You are effectively buying his time rather than "buying your belt". However the charge should be relatively minimal as I don't believe that charging huge amounts is what martial arts is really about.

Judomad

Deleted User wrote: »

I pretty mcuh agree with what Roper said. I wouldnt mind paying if it was done in a way whereby u roll with the instructor and then the decision is made based on what the instructor sees from rolling with you. You are effectively buying his time rather than "buying your belt". However the charge should be relatively minimal as I don't believe that charging huge amounts is what martial arts is really about.

dude its 2008 and we're in recession lol.......people will do anything for a few dollars nowadays!!!

Judomad

Judomad wrote: »

dude its 2008 and we're in recession lol.......people will do anything for a few dollars nowadays!!!

I dont live in a country that deals in dollars so Im recession proof! :pac:

Dont u think gym fees are enough? Privates...fine...but if a guys literally just handing you a belt dont you think its cheapened if u have to pay €100? Dont get me wrong, a guy making a livin off being a martial arts instructor is great, Im all for it, I support it, what I mean is literally paying for the belt.

Pingu

john kavanagh wrote: »

... in theory a bjj white belt could beat all other white belts at a testing and still fail. also he could lose to all white belts and still pass...

In Judo if you go up to your grading and win all your fights you could still fail if you can't perform the required throws, hold downs, escapes and submissions. Or indeed if you can't perform the Kata. So you can't just show up and run through everyone there.

By having a syllabus in addition to the competitive side it removes the subjective element of just the instructors opinion, which I would see leading to a more transparent system overall.

Gorman

Cheers for the input, it looks like it is the norm to pay for a promotion in BJJ, especially when an out of town instructor comes into to do the promotion.
For the majority, the fees are small and there's no complaints.

john kavanagh

so in judo there's 2 elements

1. monkey see, monkey do. basically learn off set moves and perform them without resistance. this would have no place in an sbg bjj grading as it has no bearing on whether or not you can do it 'alive'.

one of ireland's best ever judo players, andy ryan, told me he used to learn all the set moves the day before a grading and promptly forget them the day after.

2. sparring. and according to you it should not matter what the standard of your opponent is, only that you win. again as explained this is very different to the approach taken in an SBG grading. i have to take into account the difference in physical ability of a 40 something yr old going up against a 22 year old cross fit addict. the belt in bjj is not a representation of their physical fitness, its on their understanding of the art. a light girl may not be able to 'win' against a big strong guy but a bjj blackbelt should be able to tell who has the blue belt 'game'.

i'm not trying to say which is better, i really couldnt care. i'm just trying to be clear as to what is measured in an SBG BJJ grading.

"By having a syllabus in addition to the competitive side it removes the subjective element of just the instructors opinion, which I would see leading to a more transparent system overall. "

that is true in some bjj schools....for me i think its a bad thing because

1. syllabus - monkey see, monkey do
2. competition - the most skillful guy doesnt always win (especially true in the lower belts), a stronger fitter opponent can beat a more technical opponent based on the ruleset.

bjj belts, imo, should be based on skill level only - the ability to perform the correct technique at the right time.

Judomad

john kavanagh wrote: »

so in judo there's 2 elements

1. monkey see, monkey do. basically learn off set moves and perform them without resistance. this would have no place in an sbg bjj grading as it has no bearing on whether or not you can do it 'alive'.

one of ireland's best ever judo players, andy ryan, told me he used to learn all the set moves the day before a grading and promptly forget them the day after.

2. sparring. and according to you it should not matter what the standard of your opponent is, only that you win. again as explained this is very different to the approach taken in an SBG grading. i have to take into account the difference in physical ability of a 40 something yr old going up against a 22 year old cross fit addict. the belt in bjj is not a representation of their physical fitness, its on their understanding of the art. a light girl may not be able to 'win' against a big strong guy but a bjj blackbelt should be able to tell who has the blue belt 'game'.

i'm not trying to say which is better, i really couldnt care. i'm just trying to be clear as to what is measured in an SBG BJJ grading.

"By having a syllabus in addition to the competitive side it removes the subjective element of just the instructors opinion, which I would see leading to a more transparent system overall. "

that is true in some bjj schools....for me i think its a bad thing because

1. syllabus - monkey see, monkey do
2. competition - the most skillful guy doesnt always win (especially true in the lower belts), a stronger fitter opponent can beat a more technical opponent based on the ruleset.

bjj belts, imo, should be based on skill level only - the ability to perform the correct technique at the right time.

JK in Judo we fought for our grades, not sparred, its a national DAN grading against other people trying to win there belts too, you have to build up 100 points, 10 wins by ippon basically, you get 5 fights per grading, there is however botsakahn where if you win your 5 fights you get the equivilant of 100points, thats when the "monkey see, monkey do" starts, but other people you fight in these grading comps are trying to win there belts too so to say sparring would be wrong....thats just my imput, not saying a certain way is better than another, just thought it was unfair to say getting a black belt in judo is easy because that isn't the case, i was 60kg when i got mine, having to fight lads at the same belt standard but any weight isnt easy, i had some fights against lads 100-120kgs, not easy for a young light guy to do!!!!!

john kavanagh

Judomad wrote: »

in Judo we fought for our grades, not sparred,

fought/sparred, doesnt make any difference to the point i made about 'winning' not being the only thing that matters. i have a student who won the irish open last year at white belt level in both his weight and absolute division. he's still a white belt because imo he does not have the skill level of a blue belt.

Judomad wrote: »

just thought it was unfair to say getting a black belt in judo is easy

where did i say it was easy?

Judomad wrote: »

i had some fights against lads 100-120kgs, not easy for a young light guy to do

i'm sure it wasnt...but just to completely whip the horse to death let me say again that in a sbg bjj testing if you lost against someone twice your bodyweight that would not matter, it would only matter that you tried to do the right moves at the right time...something a good blackbelt should be able to tell regardless of whether you 'win' or 'lose'.

i'm a huge judo fan - its the natural 'other half' of bjj. i love watching it in the olympics and when you see guys like andy ryan use skill to effortlessly throw someone its beautiful....but a number of good judo blackbelts have told me that in their opinion the current grading system does not always promote the most skillful player (for the reasons i've laid out). they've told me they've seen big strong guys just 'drag' their opponent to the ground and win contests/points that way.

JohnMc1

dlofnep wrote: »

Aye yeah, I paid for my judo gradings too. Kinda defeats the purpose of earning the belt

The only problem with paying for Judo gradings here is that afterwards you have to run out and buy your own belt.

RedRaven

Iknow its not exclusively related to BJJ but its the same topic...have a read...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=273864

dlofnep

My thoughts in judo grading. I think the lower grades of judo are meaningless. For example - there were guys who started off with my who went up to dublin to grade for their orange belt, just so they could progress quicker. All you have to do is demonstrate a few non-alive throws and remember a couple of phrases and a kata.

For me, I hate having to remember the kata, and the right time to bow, and how to walk onto the mat correctly. All those traditional aspects of judo annoy me. I hate wasting precious time on remembering kata's, when it could be spent learning throws or sparring. that's just me.

But once you get into the higher belts, you have to fight for your belt. You fight against a similar level belt, who would be no doubt - at a similar skillset. They are earned.

All in all, judo is a great art. It's functional, gives you a good workout and fun to boot.

FruitLover

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I've paid for all my belts (around 20-30 euro).

They're a fiver in the MA shop on Mary St...

Nothingcompares

FruitLover wrote: »

They're a fiver in the MA shop on Mary St...

arybvtcw0eolkf

john kavanagh wrote: »

2. sparring. and according to you it should not matter what the standard of your opponent is, only that you win. again as explained this is very different to the approach taken in an SBG grading. i have to take into account the difference in physical ability of a 40 something yr old going up against a 22 year old cross fit addict. the belt in bjj is not a representation of their physical fitness, its on their understanding of the art.

In Judo there are some similarities here in so far as over (I think its) 35 the Judoka has two years to gain the points towards his BB as opposed to those under 35 so that goes some way to level the playing field.

I'm an ol'lad of 42

But really, comparing BJJ and Judo is like comparing Rugby with GAA football, sure at the end of the day they're both just a sport and which ever gives most fun/pleasure is the one the player will stick at.

Judo/BJJ to quote John Kavanagh from the old forum ''different sides of the same coin''.

Pingu

john kavanagh wrote:

so in judo there's 2 elements

1. monkey see, monkey do. basically learn off set moves and perform them without resistance. this would have no place in an sbg bjj grading as it has no bearing on whether or not you can do it 'alive'.

one of ireland's best ever judo players, andy ryan, told me he used to learn all the set moves the day before a grading and promptly forget them the day after.

There's actually two parts to this, one is the Kata. I just learn it for the grading but chatting to a former national squad coach over the last week while learning Kata he values it for the correct movement, placement and technique - as you can't power through it. Then there's the technique element where you have to be able to demonstrate the correct techniques, albeit on a compliant partner.

john kavanagh wrote:

2. sparring. and according to you it should not matter what the standard of your opponent is, only that you win. again as explained this is very different to the approach taken in an SBG grading. i have to take into account the difference in physical ability of a 40 something yr old going up against a 22 year old cross fit addict. the belt in bjj is not a representation of their physical fitness, its on their understanding of the art. a light girl may not be able to 'win' against a big strong guy but a bjj blackbelt should be able to tell who has the blue belt 'game'.

The competitive element is one of the most important elements in judo as it keeps the drive on in training and as such is an instrumental part of the grading. They try to match the people up at the gradings as evenly as possible. The onus is on club instructors not to send people up that aren't ready or capable.

john kavanagh wrote:

i'm not trying to say which is better, i really couldnt care. i'm just trying to be clear as to what is measured in an SBG BJJ grading.

"By having a syllabus in addition to the competitive side it removes the subjective element of just the instructors opinion, which I would see leading to a more transparent system overall. "

that is true in some bjj schools....for me i think its a bad thing because

1. syllabus - monkey see, monkey do
2. competition - the most skillful guy doesnt always win (especially true in the lower belts), a stronger fitter opponent can beat a more technical opponent based on the ruleset.

bjj belts, imo, should be based on skill level only - the ability to perform the correct technique at the right time.

I think that taking the skill level into account is a very good incorporation, it's just it seems it could be open to abuse - Mc Dojo's etc.

At the end of the day you tend to know what you're getting with the person once you grip up, and that's where it all comes out if they're overgraded or sandbagging.

judomick

Mairt wrote: »

But really, comparing BJJ and Judo is like comparing Rugby with GAA football,
.

Mairt wrote: »

Judo/BJJ to quote John Kavanagh from the old forum ''different sides of the same coin''.

do you agree with JK's coin analogy if so it seems as though your contradicting your 1st statement?!

i think anyone who has trained bjj and judo would agree they are very similiar sports/ma's

Judomad

judomick wrote: »

do you agree with JK's coin analogy if so it seems as though your contradicting your 1st statement?!

i think anyone who has trained bjj and judo would agree they are very similiar sports/ma's

similar being the key word, male and females are similar except we have a set of minerals!!!!!!! they aint the same, grading systems are also different!!!!!!!!!!

judomick

i never said anything about gradings, im talking about when your on the mat, im talking about the principles of movement, the gracies were taught judo which they refined primarily focusing on ne waza they did not come up with BJJ all by themselves, read any old judo technique book (best judo, and the canon of judo to name 2 popular ones) you will see footlocks, omoplatas, knee on belly, triangles etc etc

judo in competition has veered a little from its original form due to TV and trying to popularise the sport imo, but anyone who says these are not the quote jk 2 sides of the same coin have not trained in both or are extremist Olympic judo fundamentalists.

Andy ryan was one irelands top judoka and made a pretty effortless switch into bjj, and countless otherws around the world, why do the british olmpic judo squad have Roger gracie as a coach? all top level BJJ guys train in judo, and judo is starting to catch up
the differences between a man and a woman are minute im sure someone can recommend some good biology books for you to read!

Roper

judomick wrote: »

the differences between a man and a woman are minute im sure someone can recommend some good biology books for you to read!

Some differences are more minute than others...


I'll get me coat.

Nothingcompares

LOL at this thread.

The similarities and differences are all relative. Are Catholicism and Protestantism similar? To the Hindu in India they certainly are, to the Pope they're got a number of distinct differences. Judo and BJJ would be almost indistinguishable to a Karateka who was watching a few classes. I alternate between thinking Judo and BJJ are almost exactly the same and then completely different depending on my mood and how I weight the significance of the differences and similarities. Judo and BJJ are distinctly different but similar anything after that is all relative.

Tim_Murphy

Nothingcompares wrote: »

LOL at this thread.

The similarities and differences are all relative. Are Catholicism and Protestantism similar? To the Hindu in India they certainly are, to the Pope they're got a number of distinct differences. Judo and BJJ would be almost indistinguishable to a Karateka who was watching a few classes. I alternate between thinking Judo and BJJ are almost exactly the same and then completely different depending on my mood and how I weight the significance of the differences and similarities. Judo and BJJ are distinctly different but similar anything after that is all relative.

Good post.

I'm ok at BJJ, I suck at Judo: ergo they are very different! There, proof for ye.

Judomad

judomick wrote: »

i never said anything about gradings, im talking about when your on the mat, im talking about the principles of movement, the gracies were taught judo which they refined primarily focusing on ne waza they did not come up with BJJ all by themselves, read any old judo technique book (best judo, and the canon of judo to name 2 popular ones) you will see footlocks, omoplatas, knee on belly, triangles etc etc

judo in competition has veered a little from its original form due to TV and trying to popularise the sport imo, but anyone who says these are not the quote jk 2 sides of the same coin have not trained in both or are extremist Olympic judo fundamentalists.

Andy ryan was one irelands top judoka and made a pretty effortless switch into bjj, and countless otherws around the world, why do the british olmpic judo squad have Roger gracie as a coach? all top level BJJ guys train in judo, and judo is starting to catch up
the differences between a man and a woman are minute im sure someone can recommend some good biology books for you to read!

funny lil man aint ya!!!!!!!!! i think that is rather attackin me rather than my post and could possibly be an infraction for suggesting i need to read up on biology!!!! ass

john kavanagh

Pingu wrote: »

There's actually two parts to this

from a technique/skill perspective there's not. they are both just a test of technique, no skill (timing) required. its certainly nice to have proper technique but if you cant perform it on someone resisting ie knowing when to do what technique then it's pointless.

Pingu wrote: »

but chatting to a former national squad coach over the last week while learning Kata he values it for the correct movement, placement and technique

yep, heard the same thing when i was doing tkd and kempo....you can add in other such words like 'concentration', 'focus' etc

Pingu wrote: »

At the end of the day you tend to know what you're getting with the person once you grip up, and that's where it all comes out if they're overgraded or sandbagging.

100% agree...thats the beauty of combat sports, be it boxing, judo, bjj, mma whatever...once you have a sparring/fighting/competition element to it, it keeps everybody honest no where to hide!

judomad it would seem your '!' key is stuck?

Judomad

john kavanagh wrote: »

judomad it would seem your '!' key is stuck?

hahahahahahahahahahahaha no need to go to the laughter lounge tonight, plenty of comedians on here!!!!!!

RearNakedJim

Judomad wrote: »

hahahahahahahahahahahaha no need to go to the laughter lounge tonight, plenty of comedians on here!!!!!!

I thought it was pretty funny , infact people where looking at me i was laughing so hard.

Judomad

RearNakedJim wrote: »

I thought it was pretty funny , infact people where looking at me i was laughing so hard.

people will always look at handsome divils like yourself though Jim!

mickoo

RearNakedJim wrote: »

I thought it was pretty funny , infact people where looking at me i was laughing so hard.

translation.

RearNakedJim wrote: »

Oh john your bumhole tastes so good!

only 1 exclamation jim as i dont want john slagging you too!! Doh.