Abortion- Right or Wrong

Zombrex · 03-09-2008 11:58AM

CDfm wrote: »

Course I dont think women are stupid

I never said you think women, in general, are stupid.

Your posts strongly implied that you think some women are either too stupid or too lazy to bother using contraception, and as such they shouldn't have an abortion simply because they were stupid/lazy to take responsibility the first time round. Abortion should be used as a form of contraception! and all that jazz.

Is that an incorrect representation of your position?

CDfm wrote: »

Early or late abortions all boil down to one thing. When you see foetus I see baby

Well that depends on your definition of "baby". Most uses of the term that I'm aware of imply a stage in human develop after birth, but if you want to call a zygote a "baby" I'm not going to stop you. Its rather immaterial, only someone arguing from a position of emotion would think that the term "baby" has a lot of relevant. If you think the zygote is a baby then I'm all for killing babies.

CDfm wrote: »

What Im saying there are loads of contraceptive options available up to and including the morning after pill and loads of ways of having sex that wont result in pregnancy.

The term pro-choice and the way you use it is pro baby killing so you can do what you want just dont kill any babies OK.

Well yes, but "pro-baby-killing.com" was already taken, so we had to go with pro-choice.

eveie · 03-09-2008 12:05PM

ok please do not shoot me down here, but are there any statistics available for this argument that many women will face mental problems if they go through with the birth,i know a women who becomes pregnant through incest/rape will face serious mental implications but how about a women who is just shell we say "un-lucky"
as in is the reprocushions of giving birth greater then the reprocushions after a termination

eveie · 03-09-2008 12:17PM

thedydal im looking for that evidence. but if you try to deny that many women have abortions because its just not the right time or crap i dont wanna ruin my figure well then i dont see how that can be considered mental issues.
jc2k3 i havent put words in anyones mouth although many have mis represented me

Malari · 03-09-2008 12:19PM

eveie wrote: »

ok please do not shoot me down here, but are there any statistics available for this argument that many women will face mental problems if they go through with the birth,i know a women who becomes pregnant through incest/rape will face serious mental implications but how about a women who is just shell we say "un-lucky"
as in is the reprocushions of giving birth greater then the reprocushions after a termination

There are some studies, but have shown conflicting results. Also they are hard to come by for obvious reasons and often misquoted. The Canadian Medical Journal did a quick review a few years ago: http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/168/10/1257.pdf and found that there was no psychological effect in women with 1st trimester abortions.

tallaght01 · 03-09-2008 12:22PM

eveie wrote: »

thedydal im looking for that evidence. but if you try to deny that many women have abortions because its just not the right time or crap i dont wanna ruin my figure well then i dont see how that can be considered mental issues.
jc2k3 i havent put words in anyones mouth although many have mis represented me

You won't find any good evidence to answer that question one way or the other.

There was a paper a few years ago where women anonymously answered questionnaires long after their abortion, and were asked genuinely whether they believed their state of mind would have been compromised. Lots said no. But it was a really small study, and questionnaire studies make very unreliable evidence.

I think many women will undergo a lot of trauma by having a baby. But to say the trauma would be more than that of having an abortion suggests to me that many of them haven't really thought that through.

seamus · 03-09-2008 12:22PM

eveie wrote: »

as in is the reprocushions of giving birth greater then the reprocushions after a termination

Repercussions of giving birth:
Possibility of physical disfigurement, requiring surgery and recovery period
Reduced Libido
Increase in personal costs, both in terms of time and money
Increased stress
Reduced rest

Repercussions of termination
Remote chance of infertility

Feel free to add. Let's ignore any "mental anguish" argument, because they differ wildly from person to person and situation to situation.

tallaght01 · 03-09-2008 12:31PM

Malari wrote: »

There are some studies, but have shown conflicting results. Also they are hard to come by for obvious reasons and often misquoted. The Canadian Medical Journal did a quick review a few years ago: http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/168/10/1257.pdf and found that there was no psychological effect in women with 1st trimester abortions.

That paper was just an opinion piece.

They've also misrepresented the stance of, for eg, the surgeon general of america. They seem to be interpreting

"There is no good evidence. The best we have only follows women for 2 years post-abortion. A proper study would require about 100 million dollars and a huge support staff to pull off, so we really can't make any conclusions about the mental health of these women" (my summary/my words).....as

"There are no adverse mental health effects on women who have had 1st trimester abortions".

Malari · 03-09-2008 12:32PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

I think many women will undergo a lot of trauma by having a baby. But to say the trauma would be more than that of having an abortion suggests to me that many of them haven't really thought that through.

I don't know if that's quite fair. Most women have to think about the consequences of becoming pregnant and if they don't want to have a baby an unplanned pregnancy would be traumatic. An abortion early on in the pregnancy must, in many circumstances, be less traumatic for these women than carrying a pregnancy to term.

tallaght01 · 03-09-2008 12:33PM

seamus wrote: »

Let's ignore any "mental anguish" argument, because they differ wildly from person to person and situation to situation.

I can't believe someone has actually said that. And then added the "increased stress" and "reduced libido" tags tot he pregnancy population!

Malari · 03-09-2008 12:35PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

That paper was just an opinion piece.

They've also misrepresented the stance of, for eg, the surgeon general of america. They seem to be interpreting

"There is no good evidence. The best we have only follows women for 2 years post-abortion. A proper study would require about 100 million dollars and a huge support staff to pull off, so we really can't make any conclusions about the mental health of these women" (my summary/my words).....as

"There are no adverse mental health effects on women who have had 1st trimester abortions".

I didn't say it was hard and fast evidence. It was compiling the few studies that were there, and found them inconclusive. But as they mention, unless you randomly select a group of women who become unintentionally pregnant and force half of them to carry to term and half to have abortions, you will never get a proper sample.

tallaght01 · 03-09-2008 12:36PM

Malari wrote: »

I don't know if that's quite fair. Most women have to think about the consequences of becoming pregnant and if they don't want to have a baby an unplanned pregnancy would be traumatic. An abortion early on in the pregnancy must, in many circumstances, be less traumatic for these women than carrying a pregnancy to term.

I never said that doesn't happen. But I think we're maybe underestimating the trauma that having an abortion can bring.

What I'm saying is that I'm not convinced that in 98% of abortions, the risk of abortion to the mother's mental health is greater than that of the pregnancy.

But I don't know that for sure, and would never claim to.

carlybabe1 · 03-09-2008 12:36PM

eveie wrote: »

thedydal im not arguing with you over this point im just stating that if you believe that from the moment of conception that a life is created then m.a.p can sometimes be clasified as a very early abortion. i am aware that the medical profession do not agree with this[/quote

]

Th e only basis for this belief is religious, as science and as a result law do not believe this to be so. And if this is a widely held belief of prolifers then the argument of not using contraception falls flat as the majority of women who use the morning after pill do so as a result of the condom bursting

Zulu · 03-09-2008 12:36PM

seamus wrote: »

Repercussions of giving birth:
Possibility of physical disfigurement, requiring surgery and recovery period
Reduced Libido
Increase in personal costs, both in terms of time and money
Increased stress
Reduced rest

Repercussions of termination
Possibility of physical disfigurement, requiring surgery and recovery period
Remote chance of infertility
Increase in personal costs, both in terms of time and money
Reduced Libido
Increased stress
Reduced rest

Feel free to add. Let's ignore any "mental anguish" argument, because they differ wildly from person to person and situation to situation.

But by that token, so does "increased stress", "reduced rest", "reduces libido".
You are just dressing it up to suit your argument. :rolleyes:

tallaght01 · 03-09-2008 12:39PM

Malari wrote: »

I didn't say it was hard and fast evidence. It was compiling the few studies that were there, and found them inconclusive. But as they mention, unless you randomly select a group of women who become unintentionally pregnant and force half of them to carry to term and half to have abortions, you will never get a proper sample.

Well, the author also misrepresented the (limited) evidence that she talked about. There's something like 400 abortion psychoogy studies out there. She picked the ones that suited her argument. She also misrepresented some of them.

But the important thing is that we can agree that there has never been a conclusive study either way,

eveie · 03-09-2008 12:39PM

seamus in all your worldly knowledge are you suggesting that the ONLY repersussions from a termination is the "remote possibility if infertility" so theres no cahnce what so ever that a women may have serious mental and physical complications from having an abortion. see abortion is glorified as this quick and easy procedure with little represussions. however it is not that easy and any women who has had an abortion will testify to that

tallaght01 · 03-09-2008 12:41PM

carlybabe1 wrote: »

The only basis for this belief is religious, .

Well, that's not true.

carlybabe1 wrote: »

as science and as a result law do not believe this to be so

Neither is that. "Science" has never drawn a line in the sand about when life starts!

jim o doom · 03-09-2008 12:42PM

My OH's view on the whole thing; we don't want kids, there are plenty of them running around as it is.. She doesn't want stretched ladyparts (I don't want her to have them either!) & she doesn't want a big filthy caesarian scar, not to mention the stress of putting on weight & the fact that due to a serious hip injury which is not repairing she would be in agony 24/7 *but thats only a small part of it. If she gets pregnant - its baby-killing time

it's pointless trying to make me feel bad about it because I don't care about the unborn.. In fact sometimes, with the crap that goes on worldwide I have serious trouble caring for a lot of my fellow men (when I say men I am of course reffering to people, fellow man is just a saying).

eveie · 03-09-2008 12:43PM

carlybabe i hate(but oh so secretly love) to point this out but you are wrong, there is scientific research documented and agreed upon by scientist all over the world that life begins at conception, if you look through the post near the begining of this thread you will see links

eveie · 03-09-2008 12:44PM

jim im not even going to reply to your post

tallaght01 · 03-09-2008 12:45PM

jim o doom wrote: »

My OH's view on the whole thing; we don't want kids, there are plenty of them running around as it is.. She doesn't want stretched ladyparts (I don't want her to have them either!) & she doesn't want a big filthy caesarian scar, not to mention the stress of putting on weight & the fact that due to a serious hip injury which is not repairing she would be in agony 24/7 *but thats only a small part of it. If she gets pregnant - its baby-killing time
it's pointless trying to make me feel bad about it because I don't care about the unborn.. In fact sometimes, with the crap that goes on worldwide I have serious trouble caring for a lot of my fellow men (when I say men I am of course reffering to people, fellow man is just a saying).

Mate, your rights are your rights. But I reckon you've done the pro-choice argument more harm than good with that post :P

jim o doom · 03-09-2008 12:45PM

eveie wrote: »

carlybabe i hate(but oh so secretly love) to point this out but you are wrong, there is scientific research documented and agreed upon by scientist all over the world that life begins at conception, if you look through the post near the begining of this thread you will see links

who cares if life starts at conception, we have the power to end it if we want to. and don't bother trying to rationalise.. what if it was born, what if it was an adult blah blah blah, I don't care if its "alive".

Nevyn · 03-09-2008 12:46PM

eveie wrote: »

seamus in all your worldly knowledge are you suggesting that the ONLY repersussions from a termination is the "remote possibility if infertility" so theres no cahnce what so ever that a women may have serious mental and physical complications from having an abortion. see abortion is glorified as this quick and easy procedure with little represussions. however it is not that easy and any women who has had an abortion will testify to that

True but you know what recovering from giving birth is harder.

jim o doom · 03-09-2008 12:47PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

Mate, your rights are your rights. But I reckon you've done the pro-choice argument more harm than good with that post :P

To be honest, I don't care if I have done any argument harm or good, do u think some thread about people's views online is really going to affect the situation at all? all we are doing here is pointlessly exchanging views, because no one here is going to change how they feel about the issue because of what someone says, regardless of how logical it is, because people base their views on this issue on their emotions, as they do with most things and not logic..
I care zero about the unborn and I am not the only one.

eveie · 03-09-2008 12:48PM

jim by your very logic then i should be able to kill my little cousin...why?.....because i can whoo yeah

Zulu · 03-09-2008 12:48PM

Thaedydal wrote: »

True but you know what recovering from giving birth is harder.

...in your opinion/experience. Everyone recovers differently.

eveie · 03-09-2008 12:49PM

page 8 of this thread has the link i was talking about

carlybabe1 · 03-09-2008 12:49PM

eveie wrote: »

thedydal im looking for that evidence. but if you try to deny that many women have abortions because its just not the right time or crap i dont wanna ruin my figure well then i dont see how that can be considered mental issues.
jc2k3 i havent put words in anyones mouth although many have mis represented me

Oh join me on a little reality trip here please for **** sake, I for happen to have more faith in human nature than to think that any women would have an abortion to simply "save her figure" anyone with a bit if cop-on and who's not blinded by the emotional propaganda of prolifers can see this statement for what it is, horse****! As is the repeated claims that abortion is used as a contraceptive....HELLOOOOO!!!! Its slightly more expensive dontcha think, not to mention more hassle, if anything its used when contraception FAILS.....Oh and CDfm, are women the only ones in the whole sexual intercourse thing that are responsible for the contraception????

jim o doom · 03-09-2008 12:49PM

Thaedydal wrote: »

True but you know what recovering from giving birth is harder.

Thats a good point, I'm sure hormones do be all over the place, plenty of chance of post-natal depression, strong chance your lady parts may need repairing & will probably never be the same again, plus all the wonderful agony of squeezing the little beast out. yuck.

tallaght01 · 03-09-2008 12:49PM

Thaedydal wrote: »

True but you know what recovering from giving birth is harder.

That all depends on how you define "recovering".

I don't think anyone who argues that abortion is wrong is doing so on the basis that it'll have you on your back for 5 days.

It's not about physical recovery.

eveie · 03-09-2008 12:50PM

i think even many of the pro-choicers on this thread would strongly disagree with jim, mods i think this guy is trying to rise a few people here, he is not interested in the debate/talk and is only trying to get a reaction i suggest we all ignore him

Abortion- Right or Wrong

Comments